Mammoth NP is what's wrong with National Parks

[KJRitchie]

Originally Posted by BDowse

Has anyone else heard of a move to allow a privatized concession on the rim of the Grand Canyon complete with a tram to the bottom? Think I saw this on Facebook

The project would be on Navaho land near where the Little Colorado joins the Colorado. That part of the canyon is on Navaho land.

National Park Service calls development plans a threat to Grand Canyon - LA Times

[Rgmhog1450]

You are experiencing the result of massive overpopulation (the first of many). When you combine this with relative affluence (read Americans), devastation of the environment occurs. We have a very limited number of "wilderness and natural areas" remaining. The only way to preserve them is to keep the masses from trampling, desecrating, destroying, and using forms of "artistic" graffiti on these treasures. We, as a culture, seem to be unable to care for and respect the beautiful world in which we live (check out the trash along any highway or street in the U.S.). Get over it.

[GDWARC]

Well said aftermath

[ericpeltier]

Stupid adults, sadly, have even more stupid children. The ropes are there for the children, to a large extent.

I support the NPS's efforts to protect a cave that took 100,000 years to form and can be wrecked in 10 seconds.

If you want a more "wild" experience, there's a 191,000,000 acres of National Forest.

[boondockdad]

it never ceases to amaze me how many folks have been conditioned to think humans are nothing more than parasites on the earth

what a sad, pitiful existence of self-loathing that must be

[IanPoulin]

Aftermath is on the money.

[aftermath]

Originally Posted by afneill

I, too, am confused about how the "gun happy population" is contributing to, or causing the deterioration of our national parks. I am a frequent user of the National Park System sites, as well as a life member of the National Rifle Association and a holder of a CHL. Based on "aftermath"s assertion that the "gun happy population" is partly to blame, I would be interested in knowing what I am doing wrong, other than exercising my constitutional rights. I would be glad to make amends and change my ways if only I knew what I am doing wrong. I love the National Park System.

I once saw a documentary about the changes happening in Yosemite. In it they followed a couple of "park rangers" who were patrolling the campsites on a all too "typical" weekend. They were wearing body armor and guns. Because of the increase in confrontations, mainly between fellow campers, in which weapons were visible threats more arrests were being made. This precipitated the need to build an actual jail. Yes, a jail with iron bars to hold unruly campers. I applaud your membership in the NRA and can only hope that you are among the responsible owners. Not all who carry are responsible hence the need for jails in our national parks and a degradation of the camping experience.

Originally Posted by boondockdad

...It's a NATIONAL PARK. It's supposed to be there for our enjoyment.

Don't tell me a million visitors a year is going to have more an impact than the raw power of nature, itself. The Yellowstone earthquake of '59 changed the park more in 10 minutes than 10,000 years of human interaction could have.
Besides, it's NATURE. It's supposed to change.

...
But no, big nanny government has to fence everything off and lock it down to cater to the lowest common denominator.

...

/rant

For our enjoyment! Exactly, but how can I enjoy the parks if people trample them into non existence? Carving initials into cave walls is not something I enjoy. In order to enjoy things for posterity there will have to be rules to protect these sites from those who do not respect others. I think you will have to agree to that basic premise. It is sad, but also true in today's world.

Yes, nature changes all things but I don't think she uses knives to carve initials or spray paint to leave her mark.

Personally a big nanny comes in handy now and then to protect our treasures from those who would do otherwise. On this point we can agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by boondockdad

...
Maybe you missed the subtlety in my OP but, the 'Historic Entrance' was also very well maintained.
...

Well, I do enjoy boondocking.. but, I also enjoy the many attractions found within our National Parks.
You might not realize but, the whole reason NP's were established was to protect these natural resources for all generations of Americans to enjoy.
...

As for rules, someone said it better than I:
"good men do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad men will find a way around the laws."

Yes, I agree I missed your "subtlety". It sounded more like a rant.

I agree totally with the second statement here. We are on the same page but your definition of "enjoy" is different from mine. I suppose you want total freedom to walk wherever you want, to take pictures whenever even though the flash degrades paintings and petroglyphs, and whatever else you feel entitled to do. I am happy just to be able to see what is left of some of our great natural wonders even if it means that I will have to stay behind the rope.

So what is your suggestion about dealing with the "bad men will find a way around the laws"? It is the bad men out there that are causing all the trouble, the ropes, the signs and so on.

Peace

[IanPoulin]

I think the original post ended with a /rant signoff - so yes, it was a rant.

[windfallsp]

Caves like Mammoth are very fragile ecosystems that can be irreparably damaged by human intrusion, no matter how well-intended. Just the exhaled moisture-laden carbon dioxide of large numbers of visitors can damage the cave and the creatures that live in it.

In addition, Mammoth Cave is a limestone carst formation, and its "ceilings" have been known to fall suddenly. Typically, there is no warning of such dangerous falls. Consequently, visits into the Cave must be carefully controlled for the safety of both visitors and Cave.

There's a lot to learn on the multiple guided tours of Mammoth that are available to the public, but if you're looking for a highly-decorated cave, Mammoth probably wouldn't be your cup of tea, in spite of its fascinating history.

In our travels, we've always found NPS rangers and interpreters to be knowledgeable and helpful. If they tell you not to approach the ponies at Assateague National Seashore, it's because they don't want you to be bitten, kicked, or charged. (Yes, that happens.) If they caution children not to try to stick their body parts through the railings in Constitution Hall, it's because kids have gotten stuck when trying it. (And the rangers keep a very large jar of Vaseline close at hand to deal with such matters.)

We are very lucky to have such an excellent National Park System cared for by employees who understand the balance that must be maintained between conservation/preservation and public access. Few countries in the world have anything approaching our NPS.

And if you want an even better NPS, volunteer your time and/or your dollars. Yes, the NPS is supported by taxes, but the needs of the Parks far exceed the appropriations made to them by Congress.

[boondockdad]

American Indians used the caves for burial grounds, and mining

It was mined for saltpeter and other minerals during WWI and to a lesser extent, the Civil War

Doctors had a sanitarium built to house TB patients

among many other uses and occupancy Mammoth Cave experienced..

and guess what?
It's still there
all 300 miles of it
and they're finding more of it everyday

'delicate, fragile ecosystem damaged by humans' is a non-starter

[featherbedder]

Originally Posted by n2916s

The Grand Canyon proposal is planned on tribal land outside the park

Mike

I posted about corp. that wants to build on rim of canyon my post is on page 2. Yes it is on Indian land and all or part of them want this, for jobs etc. cure living in poverty also one blogger has hate white man mentality. There are 18,000 signers on petition to stop development. If I remember correctly the developer would consider not building if 20,000 signers submit petition. There are Indian reservations in Arizona that I have driven thru, these are US gov. subsidized, and I still see slum like conditions.

[GatorDave]

It is very unfortunate that the idiot morons who write on walls, carve initials and names into railings and everything else they can think of don't realize the rest of the world wish thay had't have come there. Should I start scratching my name on their cars?
I can't tell the numerous place I've been where this has occured.
Many Government parks accommodate newer rec vehicles. the older ones that were established prior to the advent of RV's esp National Parks are not updated. Perhaps it is best, nothing ticks me off more than a motorhome that pulls in and immediately starts the generator going for the entire visit. When going for Fla to Nova Scotia I found that many of the CCC parks don't accomodate a 34'. My next AS will be a 30' or 28' for that reason.
I'm not a fan of KOA or similar facilities close to the interstates primarily because I don't like the ambient traffic noise. Don't drive interstates unless absolutely necessary anyway. The country roads are much more scenic and don't have the propensity to become very long "parking lots"
I understand your frustration with the National Parks, they were designed for tenters.

[BAB]

Visited Mammoth Cave last May. My second time. We arrived just in time to sign up for one of the tours. The BEST part was watching the 3 busloads of high schoolers who showed up in tank tops, shorts, and flip flops when they got down into the innards of the cave. (Yes, my SECOND time...and I knew enough to wear something "appropriate".) I think all of them learned something important about the park.

[B00merang]

ok...having read this chain a couple of times I think the one common emotion in all these messages is a wish for more RESPECT...respect for each other's opinions, our freedom, and for our natural resources/national parks. So lets remember this and take it with us as we start a new year of travel and sight-seeing and exploring. At least WE can make a bit of difference..and we are many....regrettably we can't control anyone else's behavior. But we sure do have a variety of folks on our forum, don't we? jon

[Re-Pete]

Originally Posted by Florida 55

Having stayed in a number of wonderful state park campgrounds around the country, I am appalled at the condition of most NPS campgrounds. Very few seem to have hookups, the sites are often too small or poorly laid out for modern RV's. Facilities are old and poorly maintained. Price points at most parks are now $20 or higher for no hookups, primitive facilities, and marginally maintained infrastructure. It seems as though the management of the NPS is actively discouraging people from camping in RV's at National Parks and monuments.

I agree that the NPs campgrounds are far from great. I really don't believe that it's the gadfly of the Park Service. I'd look to the funding congress slots them instead. It's pretty sad really how under funded they are.

[KJRitchie]

I say get rid of the Departments of Energy, Education, Commerce etc and send their funding to the NPS.

[batt]

First I want everyone to know that all the revenue taken in by the Park Service goes into the general fund, which gets spent any old way the Federal government sees fit. So its not a great sum of money that they receive to run the operation.

If you have a beef about a park contact the park service and if you don't get a response contact your Senator and Congressman. They do like to have input.

Having traveled around the world I can say that I know what underfunded parks look like and have seen what masses of people can do to park trails and everything else. There are a lot of just clueless people when it come to the outdoors. I am thinking of Yosemite where every year some idiot slips into the water after reading all the warnings, riding us of some more bad DNA.

Like others I suggest skipping a stay in a NP during peak seasons and as one of the others pointed out hit the National Forests, where at least in Virginia you are on your own and better have some outdoor skills.

As far as all the goings on about people being armed well there are some parks down in Texas where you would be a fool not to be armed. As with anything, unfortunately common sense seems to be lacking with most of the populace. They carry and think that this empowers them to not respect officers of the law which can lead to a not so nice ending.I don't carry often but on occasion I have , just because of the location.

the parks are run by , and I am now referencing my age , young entergetic people who genuionly want to help you and protect the parks so people 200 years from now can see what it used to be like , before we imprinted it all.

[GeGe]

You are right, national parks are nothing like RV parks.

RV parks offer full hookups on level pads with little or no trees or anything in your way. They have concert pools with live entertainment and food prepared directly from SAMs or Costos. RV parks allow space for those large RVs with onboard generators run all day and night. They also have cable TV and internet.

For me, I have all these at home. I want to park my airstream and stay in there from night to dawn. I want to be outside with nature.

I agree we can do much better with our national parks. But I will stay there anyway compared to RV parks.

[Silver.Sanctuary]

Originally Posted by boondockdad

My beef is how the NPS is running Mammoth Cave, itself.

$5 "self-guided" tour is about 50 yards on nicely landscaped pavers, then manicured path. Everything is roped off. I guess I can understand the "No Flash Photo", but no tripods? no monopods??
It's amazing how they can so effectively drain this incredibly short trek of any wonderment.

I set my SLR on a rock to take a long exposure, and some Park service Nazi with a 20,000 lumen flashlight starts screaming at me to get off the rocks.
Seriously?
This is what 'maintaining our national treasures' have become?


I'm sick and tired of all the fences, walkways, "KEEP OUT" and "KEEP OFF" signs.
It's a NATIONAL PARK. It's supposed to be there for our enjoyment. Don't tell me a million visitors a year is going to have more an impact than the raw power of nature, itself.
/rant

That certainly is one way to look at it, and it is frustrating to be asked to pay large sums for services when we already pay high taxes to support Parks.

There is another perspective however. When I was seven (now 65) my parents took the family on a trip to the west from Minnesota. I can remember my first visit to Carlsbad Caverns National Park in New Mexico. It was magical. Seventeen years later when I retraced my steps with my new bride to show her the magic of the west, the Caverns were 'self-guided'. I almost cried. There were broken stalagtites and stalagmites everywhere. There were fingerprints on everything. The Park Service had failed by 'trusting' the public. Bad move. My children never saw what I saw, and never will. I support the park service keeping Lechuguilla (a longer and much more beautiful cave discovered in the same area) closed forever, since people will destroy it. I now live in New Mexico, but find trips to the Caverns too depressing to visit any more.

Perhaps Mammoth NP is protecting an irreplaceable asset by keeping people off the rocks. I wouldn't try to defend all of the policies and fees, but once gone, it will be gone forever.

[SeeMore]

One common theme here is dissatisfaction with how the NPS is managing the parks. Another is the recognition of how hard the Park Service is working with annually decreasing resources. What I haven't seen is acknowledgement that conditions are the result of our politicians at work and where remedy lies.

Years of cutting funds and under resourcing the park service have created the conditions so many deplore. The recent change Senator Murkowski initiated is part of a greater agenda to reduce the size of the federal government and transfer assets to the States (local control) which the GOP promotes as a better approach to government while leveraging park dissatisfaction among others.

Once under state control, states like Alaska could open these areas to commercial exploitation of minerals, oil, gas, etc., for fees to the state. Out west, there may be a push within the state to create reservoirs or access aquifers to capture water for their residents among other initiatives. Elsewhere, the emphasis may be on harvesting the timber, fracking, or outsourcing to monetize the assets. Next they will be proposing BLM, Nat'l Forests, etc., should be transfered, too. We can all lose if it becomes reality.

If you are going to contact your representative, I believe both funding and preserving our federal lands as Federal should be the message.