Least hilly and hassle free route - moving & towing, Toronto to Vancouver

[JustSomeGuy]

Also wanted to mention, back in the 1970s and 1980s, people were towing with their Ford Country Squire station wagon with a 130 hp V8 and long rear overhang, or Chevy Caprice with front disc/rear drum brakes, mushy/soft suspension, 15" or 14" whitewall passenger car tires, and all the other technology of the day. And in the 50s and 60s, the heyday of camping, people were towing with cars even less sophisticated. I don't think many people were towing with a Chevy Suburban, let alone a 3/4 ton diesel pickup (all of which have a higher center of gravity and longer rear overhang, but admittedly, the modern ones have more power and torque).

I think my 2012 Chrysler Town & Country with a long wheelbase/short rear overhang, low center of gravity, 4 wheel disc brakes, anti-lock brakes, traction control, stability control, torquey and fuel efficient 283 hp engine, 6 speed automatic, 17 wheels, etc mated to a superb handling Airstream with weight distribution and anti-sway will have superior towing capabilities than the vehicles people used to use, and managed to get to their destinations in. Sorry for getting so defensive, but a lot of people today think that if you're not towing with a full size SUV or 3/4 ton pickup, it's wrong. If Andy from Can Am, or anyone else who tows with a minivan chimes in, I'm sure we'll hear that a minivan is actually a better tow vehicle in many respects. Maybe not for a 34' trailer, but I think for a 20, 25, 28 foot trailer, it is.

A little while ago, I got to drive a friend's 1971 Chrysler Newport with a 440 V8 and 3 speed automatic. It was a blast to drive, and looked really cool, but it made me realize how incredibly far automotive technology has come since then. I also used to drive 1 ton diesel pickups and vans at a previous job. Good power and torque, but you definitely feel the higher center of gravity, and I'm a pretty easy going driver.

[andreasduess]

I think you might be over thinking this a little. I've got a friend who's parents have been full timing with a class A bus for close to ten years. They go south in winter and spend the summers in Canada. They have no permanent address in Canada, everything they own is with them and they have never had any trouble of any kind at the border. Just don't tell them your life story and you should have no trouble.

Your van is a good and capable tow vehicle, in many ways far more capable than many a truck, or truck based SUV, with an unsophisticated suspension setup and a high centre of gravity.

Don't worry too much and just enjoy the journey.

[Andrew T]

Re the comment about the brakes on the Caravan and the short wheel base. We look at rear overhang as a percentage of the wheelbase and find this a much better number than looking at the wheelbase alone. The Caravan is very good in this regard. It's rear suspension stance is 20" wider than a full size truck which also assists with stability a great deal. Beyond that it has a much better tire and wheel combination. In downhill situations it does not matter what you tow with you need to use engine braking, with the 6 speed transmission the caravan can hold the combination's speed in control on a 18% grade quite nicely.

Since 1999 we have set up over 2000 front drive vans for towing and they have given amazing service. We have two caravans in our fleet one of which makes a weekly trip to Indiana to get parts and tow back trialers that are far harder to tow than any Airstream.

I have posted this before but it is a great link to a blog done by one of our customers. They have a 2004 Sienna that they have been towing their 2002 30' Classic with for 10 years. This is a blog of a trip through the Northwest Territories, Yukon and Northern BC.

Not@Home: 8/1/10 - 8/8/10

I hope this helps.

Andrew T

[JustSomeGuy]

Thanks, both Andys!

Andreasduess, that's great to hear your friend's parents have been fulltiming and snowbirding in the US for almost a decade. But, I think they've got a few things in their favour that I dont:

1. Age. I'm going to guess that they're of typical retirement age, in their 60s or older, and hence are not expected to be in the workforce. They have a guaranteed income in the form of a pension. Me... I'm in my early 40s. People of my age are expected to be in the workforce working full time or own a business. I have neither at the moment. The US border agent I spoke to told me that if I had a job lined up for me waiting for me in Vancouver, that would have helped a lot.

2. Permanent address. Since they're full timing in a motorhome, they don't have a bricks and mortar home anymore, but they're probably using a real residential address of a friend or relative. When they cross the border they probably don't volunteer this information, they probably say something like "we're from Toronto" and the address on their ID will support this. They might even get away with a mailbox address, but if the border agent knew it was just a mailbox address, that would probably raise some red flags.

3. Although they have everything they own with them, it's neatly put away in the cupboards of their motorhome. I will have my things neatly put away in the cupboards of my Airstream, but I will also have a few boxes of kitchen items (duplicates of what's in the Airstream), home office items and all of my clothing, plus (if it fits and I'm not overloading) a living room chair, a floor lamp, a dresser and night table. To a skeptical border agent, it sure would look like I'm ready to set up a new home in the US.

4. A history of entering and exiting the US for long periods of time. I'm not sure if it was easier to go south for the winter 10 years ago, but in any case, a border agent will be able to see they've crossed the border every fall or winter and returned every spring, so they've built up some credibility already.

Border agents need to be suspicious of everyone. I can see how it would look to them. A 40 something guy pulls up to the border, with boxes of household items, a travel trailer, just left his job, sold his house, no ties to anything or anyone in Canada and wants to enter the US on the premise of taking a shortcut to BC. If I had a job lined up and/or a condo already purchased in Vancouver, that would have helped a lot. But so far, it sounds like at best, I have a 50/50 chance of being let in, depending how lenient the agent is that I would get. And if I'm refused entry, it will go on my permanent record and may harm my chances of getting into the US in the future. I don't want to jeopardize that.

I sporadically follow a blog by Rae Crothers and purchased her book (see her blog at http://travelswithmiranda.uskeba.ca/). She's Canadian, appears to be in her 30s and self-employed and is a full time RVer with a Class C motorhome towing a small pickup behind it. She's finally given in and bought a piece of property to "have ties" to Canada as she was increasingly having problems getting into the US and was tired of giving half-truths and always worrying if she'd be let in. Her solution was to buy a cheap piece of rural Saskatchewan land. As far as I know, there's no house on it yet, she's still full timing out of her RV, on that land in the summer. I'd say my situation is more similar to hers than your friend's parents.

[JustSomeGuy]

Andrew T, thanks for replying! I was hoping you would, as I know many people here consider you the authority on towing and hitch set ups. I know you wouldn't have risked your reputation or business to set me up with an unsafe tow vehicle/trailer combination. I didn't realize you had set up over 2000 front wheel drive minvans already - that helps reassure me even more! And I love that blog from Anne-Grethe and Einar with their Sienna and 30' Aistream Classic and the places they've been, including extensively through the Rockies. Makes me feel a lot better about taking my 25' Airstream Excella through the Rockies with my Chrysler Town & Country.

Good point about the minvan's wider and lower stance, which is actually an advantage over pickups. The full size SUVs and 3/4 ton, 1 ton and turbo diesel duallys have an advantage with engine power and torque, but modern minvans like my 286 hp V6 engine is quite capable. And has the benefit of being easier to drive in urban areas and more fuel efficient when not towing (and maybe even when towing - I have yet to see).

[Jammer]

The main problem crossing the border is that, while it is normally very routine, there is always the risk that it will become a huge hassle for reasons that are difficult to anticipate or for no reason at all.

I had problems entering Canada from the U.S. once on a fishing trip. The Canadian customs agent made an ass of himself because he took exception to the fact that I was driving while my parents (who were driving with me) had packed the truck. We were delayed by an hour or so while they searched through the truck and our belongings. While not a big deal in the greater scheme of things the unreasonableness and bureaucratic attitude colored the balance of our trip.

I guess the customs agent wanted to teach me a lesson. The lesson I took from it is that it's more fun to spend my vacation on the U.S. side of the border.

I wouldn't recommend trying to go across the border with all that stuff if there is a good alternative. If they find a marijuana seed that a former owner dropped under the seat of the dinette you'll spend hours dealing with them.

[JustSomeGuy]

Originally Posted by Jammer

The main problem crossing the border is that, while it is normally very routine, there is always the risk that it will become a huge hassle for reasons that are difficult to anticipate or for no reason at all.

I had problems entering Canada from the U.S. once on a fishing trip. The Canadian customs agent made an ass of himself because he took exception to the fact that I was driving while my parents (who were driving with me) had packed the truck. We were delayed by an hour or so while they searched through the truck and our belongings. While not a big deal in the greater scheme of things the unreasonableness and bureaucratic attitude colored the balance of our trip.

I guess the customs agent wanted to teach me a lesson. The lesson I took from it is that it's more fun to spend my vacation on the U.S. side of the border.

I wouldn't recommend trying to go across the border with all that stuff if there is a good alternative. If they find a marijuana seed that a former owner dropped under the seat of the dinette you'll spend hours dealing with them.

Good points! Exactly. You never know when you will get some agent on a power trip wanting to teach me a lesson about something, or blow something out of proportion and pull me aside for an hour or half a day and go through everything. Or just turn me away if they don't believe me that I'm only passing through the US. I bet many people have run into something like this when crossing a border, from whichever side, and it really puts a sour taste in their mouths about wanting to return to visit that country again.

Though I've crossed the border many times, it's always been routine. A few times I've arrived late at night, there was no line up, and I spent no more than 30 seconds talking with the border agent before being let through. Once, with a friend, we were pulled aside to do a light search of the car because they didn't believe we were across the border for the day and didn't buy anything to bring back. It was true, we had lunch, bought gas for the car (not needed to to declare), but they wanted to check anyways. With all the stuff I'll have in the van, and in the Airstream (and you're right, there could be a trace of drugs from the previous owner), I could be in for trouble. They could rip the van and trailer apart looking for drugs. I don't touch drugs myself, but I can't say that in the previous 24 years while my trailer was owned by other people there weren't any in there. A drug sniffing dog would sure know though!

The more I think about this, the more it makes sense for me to drive across on the Canadian side since it's readily available. Gas will be a bit more expensive and the roads maybe not as good, but I'd rather air on the side of caution. Once I'm not hauling my household stuff and have my employment and new address set up, I'll cross the border with my Airstream for a vacation. And you made me think, it's probably a good idea for me to fully clean and detail the trailer (and the two year old van, which I also bought used), just in case there are traces of drugs, gun power residue, tobacco, alcohol, etc that a trained dog could sniff out.

[JustSomeGuy]

A few updates:

(I'll probably be delayed a few days, but hoping to leave no later than this weekend to arrive in the Vancouver area by May 10 to May 15. Driving solo, I've done the trip in 3 1/2 to 4 or 5 days, but with a trailer, towing for the first time, I'll give myself 5 to 7 days, 4400 kms or 2800 miles to cover! ).

1. CAA Triptik Recommended Route:
It was suggested I get a CAA TripTik, because even in this day and age of GPS and Google Maps, the people who put together the TripTiks are supposed to know the best routes to take, based on the member's requirements. So, I ordered my Triptik, and requested the easiest, least hilly route. One route through Canada, and another through the US. When I got the TripTik, it suggested pretty much the route I would have taken if I used what Google Maps would give me. So, I had the clerk call down to the people who make the TripTiks to make sure they noticed my request for the least hilly routes and that I'm towing a 25 foot travel trailer. Apparently they did, and would still recommend the same route as if I were driving solo in a car because it's also the best choice in my situation. Here are their suggested routes:

Through Canada:
Toronto, take Hwy 400, then Hwy 11 to North Bay, continue on Hwy 11 (TransCanada Hwy at that point) through Kapuskasing to Thunder Bay. Then Hwy 17 to Dryden, (called Hwy 1 Trans Canada Highway entering Manitoba), through Winnipeg MB, Regina SK, Medicine Hat AB, Calgary AB, Banff, cross into BC still on Hwy 1 through Rogers Pass, through Golden BC, Revelstoke BC, Kamloops BC (I'm going to skip my side trip to Kelowna this time), then take Hwy 5 (Coquihalla, well engineered road but with steep hills for 200 kms or 2 hrs 15 min driving time) to Hope BC then back on Hwy 1 (Trans Canada Hwy), through Chillwack, etc right into the Lower Mainland. Here's a Google Map of the route: https://goo.gl/maps/kXVvd

Through the US:
Option 1 for first part of trip: Toronto to Sarnia/Port Huron border crossing taking Hwy 400, 401 (and optionally, take the 407 toll route to avoid heavy Toronto traffic), then 402 to Sarnia. Then I-69 to Flint MI, I-75 to northern Michigan near St. Ignace, then Hwy 2, Hwy 117 briefly, then Hwy 28 into northern Wisconsin.
Option 2 for first part of trip: Toronto Hwy 400 to Parry Sound, becomes Hwy 69 to Sudbury ON, then Hwy 17 (Trans Canada Highway) to Sault Sainte Marie ON, cross into northern Michigan, take Hwy 28. Gets me to the same spot as the above mentioned route.

(both optional routes meet up here) Then continue on Hwy 28. Looks like it turns into Hwy 2 around Ashland WI. Continue to Superior WI, then Hwy 210 (also labelled as Hwy 10) across Wisconsin, cross into North Dakota. At Fargo ND take I-94 and take it right across North Dakota into Montana. At Billings MT, it turns into I-90, take it through Bozeman, Butte and Missoula MT, into Washington state, through Sokane WA. Stay on I-90 right through Washington almost to the coast, at Bellevue (suburb of Seattle), go north on I-495 (also labelled as I-5 closer to the Canada/US border near Bellingham WA). Cross border from Blaine WA to White Rock (Surrey) BC. Take Hwy 99 into lower mainland.
Map of Option 1: https://goo.gl/maps/vqIFt
Map of Option 2: https://goo.gl/maps/GD7qQ (my preferred route due to less heavy traffic)

2. To cross the border or stay in Canada?
If you've read the earlier posts in this thread, you noticed my concern with crossing into the border. I've spoken with several border agents over the phone at the border crossing I'm considering crossing at. At first it was implied that I would most likely be refused entry into the US since, in the eyes of a skeptical border agent, I have all the means to lie to get into the US and illegally live and work there. I'd have all personal belongings that I haven't sold, my van, my Airstream, no job since I quit it, no home since I sold it, etc. No job lined up in in BC, no home lined up in BC.

But lately, I've been working with a Realtor in the Vancouver area. I have enough money for a modest 1 bedroom condo in the suburbs of Vancouver and am considering putting in a conditional offer on one that's a good deal. Conditional upon me seeing it in person by May 15. I'm still waiting to hear back if my offer will be accepted. I'm a bit leery about buying sight unseen, but since there's so little in my price range, I might consider that option and trust the Realtor's judgement. This would speed up the closing process, AND more importantly, give me "ties to Canada" - if I've bought, or am in the process of buying a place in BC. The US border agents can't confirm or deny anything, but "reading between the lines" it seems quite likely that this would greatly help my chances of being let across the border in transit to Canada. Even better would be proof that I've been applying to jobs in BC. Of course, there's still no guarantee. It seems if I'm refused entry, the next time I try to cross I will be required to provide extensive proof of my ties to Canada so they know I have a good reason to come back. And then, from then on, I should be OK. I'll still stay in my Airstream, but probably not as long if I can take possession of the condo sooner. I may stay in the Airstream at a campground a bit longer if I choose to do some renos to the condo before moving in. Maybe. I'm looking forward to trying out my Airstream!

If I do decide to attempt a border crossing, I would probably try it at Sault Sainte Marie, ON into Sault Sainte Marie, MI. That way I miss heavy traffic in Toronto, southern Ontario, metro Detroit, Chicago, etc. AND, if I'm denied entry, there's really no back tracking - just continue through Canada. If I tried to cross at Sarnia ON/Port Huron MI, and was denied entry, I'd have wasted 6 hours of driving time (return trip), at least one full tank of gas or more, plus the better part of a day. Not to mention driving in heavy traffic and probably $80 in 407 tolls. So, going through northern Ontario into northern Michigan would be the better way to go, if I choose to try crossing the border. I'll see how much paperwork I can get put together and how confident I feel. Otherwise I'll stick to the Canadian side where I'll get colder temperatures, possible snow conditions (so I won't be able to de-winterize my Airstream until I get to Vancouver), less amenities, more expensive fuel and steeper hills through the Rockies.

[Jim Flower]

You win the prize for being thorough, a tad ahead of Pharm. And that's a good thing. Jim

[Landrum]

It's a shame he only gets credit for 1 post for that.....

[Fly at Night]

Welcome to Beautiful B.C. It is 23C. today - and climbing. I am happpily sitting here going over some business in my comfortable air-conditioned Airstream office. (My trailer, a.k.a. the FaN is my driveway woman cave, office, and sleeping quarters).

Until you find your condo, I can recommend a few lower-mainland campgrounds. Hazelmere RV Park, in South Surrey, has a vibrant full-time community. Eagle Wind (Aldergrove) is nice, but expensive. I also like Camperland, in Bridal Falls, but it's approximately 50 miles west of Vancouver.

Yes, the real-estate here is outrageously expensive. I find it to be quite disturbing because the city I grew up in has become a city of "haves" and "have nots." I see greed in the eyes of the "haves." Envy in the eyes of the "have nots." And I hate it. Even though I do own property - if the bubble bursts - I would not be crying in my milk....or should I say.....bottle of fine B.C. wine? I still have a roof over my head (the FaN). The simple life. Happy!

Even though it's sunny today - one word of caution about our wet coast and condos. We have had a terrible time with the "leaky-condo" crisis. Make sure your condo does not leak.

You are going to have to cross three mountain ranges west of Calgary to get to Vancouver. I did it last year - in the middle of the night - and wrote about it in Welcome to the Breakfast Show. Watch out for those rogue truckers!

Here are some links about our leaky condos....but do not let it dampen your enthusiasm!

Leaky condo crisis far from over

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dANn7UwbJxc

[JustSomeGuy]

Originally Posted by Jim Flower

You win the prize for being thorough, a tad ahead of Pharm. And that's a good thing. Jim

Thanks!

[JustSomeGuy]

Resurrecting an old thread, but I thought some of you might like to know how my trip went, 6 months ago. Sorry I didn't post sooner - had (and continue to have) a lot of issues with my elderly parents, so my Airstream has been in storage almost since I got to Vancouver. Since another thread (on choice of tow vehicle) kind of overlaps this one with the trip out west, going through Canada, and it turned out to almost be like a review on the van, I figured no point in posting the same thing here. Check out my rather lengthly review and reply here: http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238...ml#post1558193