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Old 05-18-2015, 03:33 PM   #71
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I agree, prevention is the key. I firmly belive that prevention starts at home, with the parents. You just cant legislate or program good parenting. If it worked then the problem would have been solved years ago, with the multitude of social programs already in place. Two parents who are involved in the childs life. But thats getting off topic. (Not necessarily two parents in the same home now, two INVOLVED parents)
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Old 05-18-2015, 08:31 PM   #72
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Zealots wear blinders as do Graffiti Artists

Boondockdad:
As a long time member of the National Trust for Historic Preservation, I take the protection of architecturally significant landmarks very seriously. That's probably also why I find graffiti particularly egregious.

*******

Although this may have little to do directly with National Parks, the points are similar as it is not the Park to blame, but the people from environments I describe in the following:

I am sure you are busy in nearby Detroit saving architecturally significant landmarks. Detroit's founding fathers established their community in 1701. Obviously what later generations considered architecturally significant since then, were torn down, replaced and today being torn down again. Progress need not preserve the past, nor prevented to evolve on its own life of community. We in Castle Rock do not need you to "advise" our local issues, considering what monumental problems you have to... preserve.

Dearborn, Michigan probably has nothing left of its founding in 1786, as well. What there is today to "preserve" would be unsafe and lacking in modern engineered construction improvement, even if fifty years old.

If we were to "save" everything that some group found as architecturally significant, I would be living in a shack with a dirt floor owned previously by a 1859 gold prospector along Clear Creek in Denver. Tossing out your membership in a group does not make your opinion no better or valid, than someone else's opinion.

Dearborn, Michigan is another great example of a city falling apart. Save your own city. The nation and world have their own unique priorities and needs.

Citizens in MY TOWN are doing something. One step at a time. It is not the physical buildings in a town or city that are the problem you seemed to be concerned. Graffiti will weather off a surface or be removed by those who object to the message, real or imaginary. It is the people and the culture of YOUR immediate view that are the problem. Fix that and you fix graffiti.

You missed the point about tearing down historic buildings. The Middle East is doing this at the present. Save some of those.

Nepal will rebuild their buildings to meet better standards to resist earthquakes.

Even the Cliff Dwellers of the Southwest remodeled and updated over centuries of living in them. What humans do not tear down, geologic time will.

We in Castle Rock, Colorado HAVE done something to improve the quality of life and is also now, for such a small town/city, the third best place to live in the United States. Work with an organization for Dearborn... and avoid the National. Dearborn Trust of Historic Preservation as long as YOUR group is paying for the preservation with sweat and your equity.

I am for improving the living standards where I live. Taggers have been around since permanent communities were first built. You nor I will prevent graffiti. A hundred years from now, there will be taggers.

I do not speak in philosophical terms, membership in group therapy and mumbo jumbo. That is for the politicians who have let their communities fall into ruin from avoiding the real problem, those who are living in those communities. Anyone posting on this thread are not the ones you need to be "converting". Direct yourself to those areas in Dearborn, which you no doubt would avoid even contemplating the thought of patrolling the evening hours to convince one or more taggers... how you feel.
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Old 05-18-2015, 09:04 PM   #73
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We just hiked Tent Rocks near Santa Fe, NM and met up with some park rangers that were looking for people climbing where they shouldn't be. We then talked about people defacing some of the rocks and the rangers said it happened all the time but they were lucky the rocks could be easily cleaned because they were so soft. I asked what the penalty was and I think they said $250 or so. Now there's the problem. How about $1,000-$5,000 fine to make people stop and think? What happened to the two idiots that carved their name into the coliseum in Rome?
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Old 05-18-2015, 10:21 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Eklund View Post
Although this may have little to do directly with National Parks, the points are similar as it is not the Park to blame, but the people from environments I describe in the following:

I am sure you are busy in nearby Detroit saving architecturally significant landmarks. Detroit's founding fathers established their community in 1701. Obviously what later generations considered architecturally significant since then, were torn down, replaced and today being torn down again. Progress need not preserve the past, nor prevented to evolve on its own life of community. We in Castle Rock do not need you to "advise" our local issues, considering what monumental problems you have to... preserve.

Dearborn, Michigan probably has nothing left of its founding in 1786, as well. What there is today to "preserve" would be unsafe and lacking in modern engineered construction improvement, even if fifty years old.

If we were to "save" everything that some group found as architecturally significant, I would be living in a shack with a dirt floor owned previously by a 1859 gold prospector along Clear Creek in Denver. Tossing out your membership in a group does not make your opinion no better or valid, than someone else's opinion.

Dearborn, Michigan is another great example of a city falling apart. Save your own city. The nation and world have their own unique priorities and needs.

Citizens in MY TOWN are doing something. One step at a time. It is not the physical buildings in a town or city that are the problem you seemed to be concerned. Graffiti will weather off a surface or be removed by those who object to the message, real or imaginary. It is the people and the culture of YOUR immediate view that are the problem. Fix that and you fix graffiti.

You missed the point about tearing down historic buildings. The Middle East is doing this at the present. Save some of those.

Nepal will rebuild their buildings to meet better standards to resist earthquakes.

Even the Cliff Dwellers of the Southwest remodeled and updated over centuries of living in them. What humans do not tear down, geologic time will.

We in Castle Rock, Colorado HAVE done something to improve the quality of life and is also now, for such a small town/city, the third best place to live in the United States. Work with an organization for Dearborn... and avoid the National. Dearborn Trust of Historic Preservation as long as YOUR group is paying for the preservation with sweat and your equity.

I am for improving the living standards where I live. Taggers have been around since permanent communities were first built. You nor I will prevent graffiti. A hundred years from now, there will be taggers.

I do not speak in philosophical terms, membership in group therapy and mumbo jumbo. That is for the politicians who have let their communities fall into ruin from avoiding the real problem, those who are living in those communities. Anyone posting on this thread are not the ones you need to be "converting". Direct yourself to those areas in Dearborn, which you no doubt would avoid even contemplating the thought of patrolling the evening hours to convince one or more taggers... how you feel.
I see.
We've gone from "who am I to judge art?"
to
"there's always going to be vandals, so whatevs"

I guess property rights and ownership really threw a monkey wrench in your pro-vandalism diatribe, eh?

- - -

Actually, we've several excellent historic preservation structures that are quite a bit older than 50 years here in Dearborn; that are still functional and occupied daily. Despite your fears of living on (what we'd call a "Michigan basement") a dirt floor, appreciation for historic architecture doesn't automatically mean a rigid dogmatic stance of conservation. Actually, the point I made in another thread about natures constant state of change, and we humans relatively negligible impact on her; speaks to this ongoing continuum.
A constant cycle of building up, then breaking down.
Some specimens should be protected and preserved- but, not at the expense of walling them off behind glass and barricades. Which ones are preserved are occasionally providential, but most always self-evident to an educated mind and lover of what is noble, just, pure, lovely, virtuous and praiseworthy.

The pro-graffiti argument makes me think of the disparity in required reading from 100 years ago vs. today. Back then, an elementary school students list had: "Treasure Island", "Captain Courageous", "Evangeline", and of course The Bible. Titles, that not coincidentally, introduced children to an array of themes crucial to understanding the foundations upon which America and western civilization were built. Now, it's "The House of the Scorpion", "The Last Book in the Universe", or "Hunger Games".
Written within the last 20 years, books based on nothing more than a passing fad.

- - -

Perhaps it's the more nuanced mind that can appreciate the value of illicit graffiti. Obviously there are folks who think there is something beautiful and uplifting in this. I will give you this: it is emotive.

I guess I've seen builders do worse to a historic Sears & Roebuck Foursquare, all in the name of adding a few square feet... am I right?? But, I digress.

I like your NIMBY position. Particularly taking a local interest, and rebuking any national oversight or meddling. That's a very noble position to take. But, like all organizations, there needs to be organizational hierarchy to insure all our ships are sailing in the same direction.
By all means, pursue what you think is best, out there in Colorado. Lord knows, the dopers have.

- - -

Nope. Graffiti is vandalism. It has no value. It is not part of the human condition. It is de-evolution... and like the etymology of 'vandalism', this current plague of 'taggers' and their sickening doodles will forever go down in history as nothing more than a plague of miscreants spreading their dreck.

Of that, I am sure.
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Old 05-19-2015, 07:21 AM   #75
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I equate graffiti with littering. I think you'll find it's the same people who would do both. Lack of respect for others, for property either privat or public, and for authority. We've had to go to parking permits in our neighborhood because high school kids park here. They block driveways, mailboxes, and walk through backyards sometimes climbing over fences and damaging them. This is an affluent community, these kids are of different races, they all have enough money to buy cars, and yet they show no respect. Example. Neighbor stopped two girls from walking past his house into his backyard to climb over a fence to get to school. He politely told them that he preferred they didn't do that. One of them then said that its okay then to walk through. He said no, why would you think that. Her reply was you said thst you preferred we didn't walk through but you didn't say not to. He clarified his meaning. Sorry for another rant. Jim
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Old 05-19-2015, 08:38 AM   #76
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Back to the Point

I have been to the majority of National Parks in the western USA. I have never found blatant graffiti. Yes, names scratched on wooden bench seats and of course, the family scratching their names onto handrails.

Is there an affordable and reasonable way to prevent these acts of vandalism?

No.

This is a "tar baby" that has no solution. You can expand this onto City Parks and National Forest campgrounds and there still is no possible way to prevent those with intent, from doing.

The original post is an example of a family who had no regard as to what they were doing. They and others with the same mindset will continue to do this. If there were a way to prevent such activity, it would have been discovered and in practice.

The best any of us can do is to point these individuals out and react. Most of the true damage is done at night. The graffiti vandals know it is wrong. They do not care and the punishment, if any, is of no consequence.

Repeat DUI drivers can be prevented. Speeding. Bank Robberies. Larceny. Residential breaking. None can be prevented with or without laws. We do the best we can to mitigate these situations, but have absolutely NO control over these individuals.

The family that was defacing the handrails in the National Park. Had you grabbed one of the family members... it would be YOU that would be charged with assault. A judge would eventually toss the case, but we understand that it is we, the responsible individual, who have everything working against us.

Be the responsible citizens that most of are and be very careful when encountering these individuals that care little about themselves or your family.
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Old 05-19-2015, 08:50 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbroedlow View Post
We just hiked Tent Rocks near Santa Fe, NM and met up with some park rangers that were looking for people climbing where they shouldn't be. We then talked about people defacing some of the rocks and the rangers said it happened all the time but they were lucky the rocks could be easily cleaned because they were so soft. I asked what the penalty was and I think they said $250 or so. Now there's the problem. How about $1,000-$5,000 fine to make people stop and think? What happened to the two idiots that carved their name into the coliseum in Rome?
This.
Make the fines hurt.

Or how about like they do in Finland, and base the fine on the persons net worth... some millionaire got a speeding ticket for what amounted to 18mph over the limit, and based on his worth the fine was $130,000!
If he was median income, it would have been something like $600.

If they're a minor, hit their parents with the fine... and give the delinquent huge community service.
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Old 05-19-2015, 01:07 PM   #78
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This.

Make the fines hurt.



Or how about like they do in Finland, and base the fine on the persons net worth... some millionaire got a speeding ticket for what amounted to 18mph over the limit, and based on his worth the fine was $130,000!

If he was median income, it would have been something like $600.



If they're a minor, hit their parents with the fine... and give the delinquent huge community service.

This is good! If there are fines available, allow them to scale up/down to the individual and their capabilities. I still think education needs to be in there somewhere, but this is a fantastic idea...

On a tangental note, and not intending to "support" graffiti, but if you ever travel to Pompeii, find time to visit the so-called "secret museum" in Naples at the National Archaeological Museum. When Pompeii was excavated, they uncovered an amazing amount of Roman era graffiti in the city, nearly all of insanely obscene by today's standards as well as some fairly lewd household artworks, statuary, etc.. The graffiti which was not obscene was usually political in nature, with follow on graffiti in the obscene category. The museum also includes numerous (in-)famous household art pieces (the one most likely known is the statue of the god Pan copulating with a goat.

Lewd or not, graffiti or not, the works in the walls of Pompeii and its museums are a fascinating look into the cultures of Rome not available anywhere else.


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Old 05-19-2015, 01:12 PM   #79
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I would guess that about one in 1000 (or less) vandals/taggers are ever caught. So increased fines really wont do much. Im all for it but really, not much impact on the problem.
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Old 06-07-2015, 09:19 AM   #80
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Castle Rock, CO graffiti vandals...

It will be interesting to see these vandals caught, where they are from and what punishment, if any, will be dispensed.

"Police ask for help catch graffiti vandals (Denver Post, June 7, 2015)

Graffiti vandals are tagging various spots in Castle Rock, including public art pieces along town trails.

Castle Rock, Colorado Police are looking for at least three suspects, based on video surveillance. One is a male in his late teens or early 20's wearing shoes with different color laces. The other two suspects are males about the same age.

The vandals are also tagging construction equipment, sidewalks, walls and other spots around town."
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Old 06-14-2016, 04:47 PM   #81
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Good.
https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1563/nocket...-vandalism.htm
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