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Old 05-17-2015, 06:12 PM   #57
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Some statements made here just make me shake my head in befuddlement.
Yeah, share your thoughts 'Chief

I'd like to know your take.. I've always appreciated your comments elsewhere.
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Old 05-17-2015, 07:20 PM   #58
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It has been noted by some that the mission of the NPS has a fundamental contradiction, and I think that was essentially what we're seeing in this thread.

Begin with a fundamentally true fact about humans: Most are great, but some are troublemakers. The mission statement, unfortunately, does not recognize this fact: "...to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such
means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations." The result is that damage will happen, and it will continue to happen. Short of changing the mission by either giving up on protection or limiting access, there is little that can be done besides trying to educate
.


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Old 05-17-2015, 07:35 PM   #59
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Maybe the police can give them a paycheck every week they stay out of trouble. Good chance that's what their parents did. I better stop here..
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Old 05-17-2015, 08:40 PM   #60
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It's going to be a pretty tough problem to solve. Here are some rough numbers to ponder. Of course, these numbers are misleading in lots of ways; nonetheless, they do suggest that using police to control behavior in the parks is probably a lost cause.

First just a few of the US national parks by square miles:

Death Valley: 5,269 square miles
Yellowstone: 3,468 square miles
Grand canyon: 1,902 square miles
Big Bend: 1,252 square miles
Yosemite: 1,189 square miles
Great Smokey Mountains: 814 square miles

For ALL of the national parks/monuments in this country, we have a total of 580 NPS police officers.

Just to put things in perspective, here are a couple of our larger cites by square miles:

Los Angeles: 469 square miles
New York City: 469 square miles
Chicago: 228 square miles

The United States has over 1.1 million police officers on patrol.

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Old 05-17-2015, 09:11 PM   #61
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Human Behavior today and yesterday...

I have seen no post on this Thread that is not TRUE and HONEST feelings. It is the "degree" of the offense that is being discussed. Humans have a natural need to make their mark. Before spray paint, before steel tools, before cities, towns, villages, before agriculture... Graffiti was Important.

The cave art of prehistoric France would be today's graffiti.

The pecking upon the iron rind of red sandstones in the Southwest have graffiti for special places and to mark ownership of an area.

Spanish exploring the Southwest went through some great effort when finding an appropriate flat protected surface to make their mark of the occasion for all to see.

When the human population was small, graffiti was a part of leaving their dreams, someone's thoughts or just idle time for idle hands of someone with an artistic talent. Who knows. I do not. Much of this graffiti's meaning has been lost over the thousands of years that these marks intent were made upon surfaces that still exist today. Anthropologists and archaeologists still try to find meaning of the prolific handiwork of humans, like us, leaving their mark. As their mark became centuries old, whatever remains of this graffiti is protected, socially, everywhere in our arid Southwest, as a good example.

Much of modern graffiti today has no significance, other than an individual wanting recognition. Among the group of the few, their graffiti has meaning. Being among millions of individuals and not 25 individuals of a nomadic family group, modern graffiti has no meaning... to you or myself, but I want to give an example of some graffiti that became important and positive.

- The Berlin Wall. Any surviving fragments of the wall with graffiti is now in museums. Protected. There is very little left of the Berlin Wall as it was removed and lost within a decade. This modern graffiti BECAME historically important. Who are you or myself to make that judgement of good or bad?

- A local artist in Castle Rock, Colorado did a remarkable thing worth mentioning. She is a neighbor of mine. Many concrete surfaces were being tagged by graffiti having no meaning to the majority, but to a small minority it meant something. She received donated paint and supplies and painted over the graffiti HUGE patriotic art representing the US Military and the Police. She did large scale wonderful art on bridge pillars and bare concrete surfaces of things that really meant something. I am sure the Castle Rock Police Department has photographs of this wonderful work.

This art has not been tagged. This art with symbolism has not been tagged. The City of Castle Rock has not had to remove graffiti since. Hopefully this will remain the case. For one person to come forward and TAG with GRAFFITI of her own, with meaning to everyone, even taggers... you must be careful to criticize before you understand. Not all graffiti is the same.

- Mount Rushmore and the Crazy Horse Memorial are massive forms of graffiti. Just because YOU think it art or has meaning, does not change the fact that the granite of the Black Hills has been defaced.

All I ask is that you open your mind, a little please, and consider WHY can one's graffiti be welcomed and HOW can chronic taggers find respect for a professional artist/sculpture's graffiti at the same time?

- Pueblo, Colorado built massive concrete retaining walls intended to prevent erosion caused by the Arkansas River. These walls had chronic graffiti. The City of Pueblo invited artists of all kinds and ages in the city, assigned large sections of concrete surfaces to be desecrated "by invitation". Today when you drive through Pueblo, Colorado and cross the Arkansas River... look. Although after a decade the invited graffiti art is weathered some, but... I never have seen any malicious tagging at this extensive site.

Music to one's ears is Noise to another's ear. Keep that in mind. Sometimes we speak and think with emotions and not consider that sometimes there is a purpose in what we call graffiti. You might have to think. That could be dangerous.

I have a tendency to prolong the agony of the average reader, who finds anything longer than an short obituary is hard to grasp. Sorry for that. So be it. If all messengers expected criticism from others by saying something, I would also keep my posts to under ten words or ... less. I will take the criticism, but at least do it in a sentence long enough to get your point across. An empty mind has short sentences and fewer nouns.
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Old 05-17-2015, 10:43 PM   #62
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Ray, well said
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Old 05-18-2015, 06:26 AM   #63
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There's a wall here in Gainesville on one of the main streets that is set aside just for taggers. The only part not tagged is the memorial to the students killed by Danny Rollings a long time ago. This wall is probably half a mile long and is monitored for obscentities, basically anything else is okay. Jim
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Old 05-18-2015, 07:24 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Eklund View Post
I have seen no post on this Thread that is not TRUE and HONEST feelings. It is the "degree" of the offense that is being discussed. Humans have a natural need to make their mark. Before spray paint, before steel tools, before cities, towns, villages, before agriculture... Graffiti was Important.

The cave art of prehistoric France would be today's graffiti.

The pecking upon the iron rind of red sandstones in the Southwest have graffiti for special places and to mark ownership of an area.

Spanish exploring the Southwest went through some great effort when finding an appropriate flat protected surface to make their mark of the occasion for all to see.

When the human population was small, graffiti was a part of leaving their dreams, someone's thoughts or just idle time for idle hands of someone with an artistic talent. Who knows. I do not. Much of this graffiti's meaning has been lost over the thousands of years that these marks intent were made upon surfaces that still exist today. Anthropologists and archaeologists still try to find meaning of the prolific handiwork of humans, like us, leaving their mark. As their mark became centuries old, whatever remains of this graffiti is protected, socially, everywhere in our arid Southwest, as a good example.

Much of modern graffiti today has no significance, other than an individual wanting recognition. Among the group of the few, their graffiti has meaning. Being among millions of individuals and not 25 individuals of a nomadic family group, modern graffiti has no meaning... to you or myself, but I want to give an example of some graffiti that became important and positive.

- The Berlin Wall. Any surviving fragments of the wall with graffiti is now in museums. Protected. There is very little left of the Berlin Wall as it was removed and lost within a decade. This modern graffiti BECAME historically important. Who are you or myself to make that judgement of good or bad?

- A local artist in Castle Rock, Colorado did a remarkable thing worth mentioning. She is a neighbor of mine. Many concrete surfaces were being tagged by graffiti having no meaning to the majority, but to a small minority it meant something. She received donated paint and supplies and painted over the graffiti HUGE patriotic art representing the US Military and the Police. She did large scale wonderful art on bridge pillars and bare concrete surfaces of things that really meant something. I am sure the Castle Rock Police Department has photographs of this wonderful work.

This art has not been tagged. This art with symbolism has not been tagged. The City of Castle Rock has not had to remove graffiti since. Hopefully this will remain the case. For one person to come forward and TAG with GRAFFITI of her own, with meaning to everyone, even taggers... you must be careful to criticize before you understand. Not all graffiti is the same.

- Mount Rushmore and the Crazy Horse Memorial are massive forms of graffiti. Just because YOU think it art or has meaning, does not change the fact that the granite of the Black Hills has been defaced.

All I ask is that you open your mind, a little please, and consider WHY can one's graffiti be welcomed and HOW can chronic taggers find respect for a professional artist/sculpture's graffiti at the same time?

- Pueblo, Colorado built massive concrete retaining walls intended to prevent erosion caused by the Arkansas River. These walls had chronic graffiti. The City of Pueblo invited artists of all kinds and ages in the city, assigned large sections of concrete surfaces to be desecrated "by invitation". Today when you drive through Pueblo, Colorado and cross the Arkansas River... look. Although after a decade the invited graffiti art is weathered some, but... I never have seen any malicious tagging at this extensive site.

Music to one's ears is Noise to another's ear. Keep that in mind. Sometimes we speak and think with emotions and not consider that sometimes there is a purpose in what we call graffiti. You might have to think. That could be dangerous.

I have a tendency to prolong the agony of the average reader, who finds anything longer than an short obituary is hard to grasp. Sorry for that. So be it. If all messengers expected criticism from others by saying something, I would also keep my posts to under ten words or ... less. I will take the criticism, but at least do it in a sentence long enough to get your point across. An empty mind has short sentences and fewer nouns.
Let's be clear, the importance of the Berlin Wall is the wall itself, and the fragments themselves as remains of what it represented- that's why they're protected in a museum; not because of the graffiti on the wall.

Prehistoric art and ancient cave paintings were specifically ART and not graffiti because the surface belonged to the artist.

Mount Rushmore? Really? Massive forms of graffiti?

Something you conspicuously neglected to mention in your critique is this: art is commissioned. Graffiti is done specifically without consent or ownership; no permission or request. It's illegal on it's face, and in my humble opinion, the overwhelming majority of it is a reflection of the rancid evil in the offenders soul who impotently attempts to spread evil.

PS. Don't poo-poo 'short sentences and fewer nouns', it's been said: 'brevity is the soul of wit'.
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Old 05-18-2015, 07:48 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by eubank View Post
It has been noted by some that the mission of the NPS has a fundamental contradiction, and I think that was essentially what we're seeing in this thread.

Begin with a fundamentally true fact about humans: Most are great, but some are troublemakers. The mission statement, unfortunately, does not recognize this fact: "...to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such
means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations." The result is that damage will happen, and it will continue to happen. Short of changing the mission by either giving up on protection or limiting access, there is little that can be done besides trying to educate
.


Lynn
Lynn --

I think you have it correct; with exception of which ought be a -- the thread cites the small allocation of enforcement for which additional laws or government oversight are likely to have little effect. It comes back to education - how do we take what are currently the greatest detractors and instill into them the wisdom, or future view, that they may become the greatest defenders?
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Old 05-18-2015, 11:54 AM   #66
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Commissioned Graffiti becomes Art?

Eubank, thank you for the National Park sizes! Never seen that before.

First just a few of the US national parks by square miles:

Death Valley: 5,269 square miles
Yellowstone: 3,468 square miles
Grand canyon: 1,902 square miles
Big Bend: 1,252 square miles
Yosemite: 1,189 square miles
Great Smokey Mountains: 814 square miles

*********
Although citing the number of "Park Rangers" it does not include the more numerous volunteers. If you consider the square miles of each National Park, you must also realize than only a very small percentage is open to the public. Much is inaccessible... thus a perfect reason to make it a National Park or even a Wilderness Area. Restricting access is part of the process for protection. Not the Park Ranger force.

Park Rangers are there to enforce civility among the tourists. Not to protect anything, which is near impossible. Park visitors are expected to be the eyes and ears of any protected "from people" lands.

Boondockdad believes that anything "approved by the establishment" judges what is appropriate. That is why some tear down historic ruins because they no longer represent the current approval of the establishment. Just because the majority accept what is appropriate today, does not mean it is correct now or a hundred years later.

"Art is commissioned". If I were to pay/commission someone to spray paint the front of the local Police Station, does that make it appropriate and legal? Only an artist could come up with that idea. The vast majority of "tagging and graffiti" is found in urban areas and who is to say it is not... commissioned art?

I conspicuously neglected to mention many critiques. I left some points out of my "critique" for those who have some ideas of their own to discuss, rather than being politically correct and deride valid points as a matter of personal opinion or choice.

If brevity is the soul of wit... it would put all comedians immediately among the unemployed. I have yet to find any humor among those short posts on this thread concerning graffiti. If the intent of your posts on any Airforum Thread is to be humorous, you might find a better website to spread your graffiti humor as it is not commissioned nor witty. Our perceptions must be written on a wall to make any sense.
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Old 05-18-2015, 01:11 PM   #67
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Although citing the number of "Park Rangers" it does not include the more numerous volunteers. If you consider the square miles of each National Park, you must also realize than only a very small percentage is open to the public. Much is inaccessible... thus a perfect reason to make it a National Park or even a Wilderness Area. Restricting access is part of the process for protection. Not the Park Ranger force.

Park Rangers are there to enforce civility among the tourists. Not to protect anything, which is near impossible. Park visitors are expected to be the eyes and ears of any protected "from people" lands.

Boondockdad believes that anything "approved by the establishment" judges what is appropriate. That is why some tear down historic ruins because they no longer represent the current approval of the establishment. Just because the majority accept what is appropriate today, does not mean it is correct now or a hundred years later.

"Art is commissioned". If I were to pay/commission someone to spray paint the front of the local Police Station, does that make it appropriate and legal? Only an artist could come up with that idea. The vast majority of "tagging and graffiti" is found in urban areas and who is to say it is not... commissioned art?

I conspicuously neglected to mention many critiques. I left some points out of my "critique" for those who have some ideas of their own to discuss, rather than being politically correct and deride valid points as a matter of personal opinion or choice.
Not sure how you arrived at my endorsing only 'approved by the establishment'.
As a long time member of the National Trust for Historic Preservation, I take the protection of architecturally significant landmarks very seriously. That's probably also why I find graffiti particularly egregious.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning on commissioned work...
WRT your example; if you (somehow) owned the police station, paid someone to paint it in accordance with the municipalities ordinances- then it would be legal.. it wouldn't be graffiti.
Graffiti is by definition, writings or drawings done illicitly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Eklund View Post
If brevity is the soul of wit... it would put all comedians immediately among the unemployed. I have yet to find any humor among those short posts on this thread concerning graffiti. If the intent of your posts on any Airforum Thread is to be humorous, you might find a better website to spread your graffiti humor as it is not commissioned nor witty. Our perceptions must be written on a wall to make any sense.
Wow. That's kinda harsh, isn't it?

Might behoove you to check what a 'public forum' is, and also the definition of 'wit' (hint: it doesn't have to mean humor).
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Old 05-18-2015, 01:41 PM   #68
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As Superintendent of Parks for our city I really didnt struggle with the philosophy behind graffiti, it was destruction of public property. We can go on for years discussing what is "art" and what is "graffiti" and many have tried to define both. In fact, I have seen many street paintings that I thought were absolutely beautiful. However there is a time and place for everything. Choosing to use public space without permission as your canvas for self expression is defacing public property. My salary was paid by the tax payers and I was charged with the duty of being a good steward of parks owned by every tax payer in our district. Dealing with vandals was an every day part of that stewardship. Not to analyze whether graffiti was worthy or not. In twelve years in that position i never received a complaint about the removal of someones "tag". Complaints of areas that had been hit were common. Multiply that by thousands and that is what our National Park staff are up against. Its vandalism, just as if they chose to tag your Airstream. Once again self respect and respect of public property starts and ends at home with good parenting. A child probably learns how they will respect or disrespect public spaces before they reach 1st grade by watching their parents. I do believe that those in the profession would agree that the best way to combat ANY type of vandalism is to remove it or repair it as fast as possible. For many reasons.
Having said that, I also think its wonderful that agencies are getting creative in providing space for those who want paint street art. Some private businesses are also encouraging it on their buildings, I think thats great. A time and space for everything.
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Old 05-18-2015, 02:10 PM   #69
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Well put, Mayco.

I believe it is definitely a symptom of the culture war.

You can't expect a youth to respect anything if they don't respect themselves.

The solution goes way beyond funding. Throwing more money at the problem won't touch it. Take the 'war on poverty'. 22 TRILLION spend since the start of LBJ's great project, and does anyone seriously think we're better off now?

With God's help, we're doing our part- raising our children to know right from wrong.
Because as a parent, everything else amounts to a hill of beans, if you didn't raise your children properly.
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Old 05-18-2015, 02:48 PM   #70
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"I do believe that those in the profession would agree that the best way to combat ANY type of vandalism is to remove it or repair it as fast as possible."

There is one better way, in my opinion, which would be to prevent it from happening in the first place.

Vandalism is an interesting crime, in that nobody really benefits from it, other than the momentary rush the perpetrator might get from doing it. People rob to get money; people take drugs because they want to get high; people murder other people because they either hate them or the other people get in the way of their committing some other crime. You're not generally going to be able to talk people out of robbing or doing drugs or murder, since there are actual reasons for doing those things, whereas there really aren't any important reasons for making graffiti other than the lack of anything more interesting to do, so I would think that prevention of graffiti might be a possibility.

Prevention of vandalism involves discovering the motivation for doing it and redirecting it in a more positive direction. I'm sure there are many different motivations for many different people. I mentioned despair and anger in my last post. Someone mentioned a desire for fame. The list probably goes on and on.

I certainly have no problem arresting people who have committed crimes and punishing them appropriately. I have no problem with "good parenting," although that reminds me of the old joke about how to live a long and healthy life: pick healthy grandparents. By the time people are out making graffiti, their parenting has pretty much ended, and they are stuck with the results.

Everyone who has posted pretty much agrees that the resources of the national parks are woefully inadequate to arrest and punish a meaningful number of people who make graffiti, and I suppose city policy departments have more important crimes to worry about, therefore the threat of arrest and punishment is not a meaningful deterrent, so maybe we should look at ways of prevention, as deterrent doesn't seem to be working very well.
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