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Old 01-13-2017, 10:09 PM   #1
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Go slow... Not!

Time and again and in different forums the most frequent advise given, in the name of safety, is to go slow. I beg do differ.

Go slow when conditions indicate. Otherwise, going slow provides a false sense of security and lends itself to distraction. One is more likely to glance at a new message on the phone, even texting, dialing etc. because one is 'going safely slow'.

When going fast, one is alert and focus. While most car accidents happen at speeds under 50 mph when people tend to become complacent, drive on 'automatic' and let the mind (eyes and fingers) wonder away from the road.

Go slow when the conditions demand it. Keep your distance from whomever is in front of you, focus on 2 or 3 cars ahead of you and allow your peripheral vision to 'see' what they guy immediately before you is doing (his actions can be anticipated by whatever is going on in frontr o f him. Otherwise, go as fast as the same conditions allow it. Remember that speed does not kill: stopping fast does it. As in a crash. Not stopping does not exist: eventually you will although may not be a happy stop against something hard.

While we often read how important going slow is, a lot more emphasis may have to be placed on stopping.

Ability to stop on demand is essential in bikes, sailboats, racing cars, even jet fighters (being able to stop and come up behind the bad guy decides the dog fight in the air). In sailing, the ground tackle (anchor and rode) is about the most important system onboard, to make sure that you don't wake up over the rocks on a lee shore, for instance), to the point that the most important function of an auxiliary (engine) is to dig and secure the anchor.

Those of us who also ride, know we don't stop on a turn. Always before it. Same while towing. Race car drivers know that the ability of one car to stop right before the turn makes the difference between first place and losing. Bikers know to actually 'open' or gas during the turn, to insure traction and 'let the fat tire eat', that is the rear shoe.

If slowness means safety, the safest ride is to stay parked. Slow is not an absolute value, it only acquires meaning in relation to road conditions, skills of the driver, equipment and who do you share the road with. I pulled my trailer for long flat stretches of Texas, on my first tow, at 80 mph and live to tell about it.

'Slow' guarantees just one thing: you will get there later.
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:21 PM   #2
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Slow gives you more than just one thing, but you probably wouldn't agree.

Best wishes to you and yours.
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:28 PM   #3
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Interesting essay. How do the data line up with your hypothesis?

One of the most dangerous things we humans do is trust our intuition or "common sense", which is guided by bizarre and outdated cognitive biases. Data is really the most trustworthy source of unbiased information.

One issue with your subject matter is that the data are quite sparse on speed's impact on towing accidents. That said, the data is quite rich with regard to speed's relationship to safety without a trailer. Check it out. Spoiler: it's inversely proportional.

Anecdotes aren't evidence. One person's 80mph haul across a state without an issue is another person's grandfather who drank whiskey and ate beef fat every day and lived until he was 100.

The one fact I did see in the post was that going slower means you'll arrive later. Here's another one for consideration - going slower means less fossil fuel consumption and better efficiency.

Just another viewpoint.
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Old 01-14-2017, 12:33 AM   #4
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speed

I tow campers for a living and ride bikes and I for one would not want to ride with or near you or be on the same road you are driving or towing a camper on. Anyone with that mentality about speed is a danger to themselves and evryone on the same road. I for one am not bullit proof and ten foot tall. (Used to think i was but then i got older.)
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Old 01-14-2017, 12:52 AM   #5
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Holy cow! I haven't visited airforums in awhile and the first two threads I open tonight are ripe for contention (see diesel emissions scandal).

The OP makes a risky assumption: one is continually alert while driving at a higher speed over a long stretch, e.g., 80 mph. To be fair, you do recommend driving according to conditions but it only takes ONE unforseen act to coincide with just ONE tiny momentary lapse in focus to cause an emergency decision. I'd still take that one extra second over a saved hour or two. Especially when fulltiming or on vacation - what's the rush?

Trust me. I know.
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Old 01-14-2017, 01:41 AM   #6
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Ok, lets see what data shows us

http://mpainesyd.com/idisk/Public/ca...eeds_jan07.pdf


Question: Half of all fatal car accidents occur at or below what impact speed?

The US government carries out detailed crash reconstructions of a sample of fatal crashes in order to better understand the factors that led to the crash and the resulting injuries. By analysing the data for seat-belt wearing drivers killed in frontal crashes between 1993 and 1997 they found that half of all fatalities occurred at an impact speed (or "delta V") of 50km/h or less.



Caption: Impact speeds for US crashes
While it is true that a crash at high speed is more likely to have a fatal outcome, there are many more crashes at the lower speeds and there are just as many fatal crashes below 50km/h as above this impact speed.
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Old 01-14-2017, 01:50 AM   #7
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Like in many other activities, a false sense of security, boredom or distractions, all borne of 'slow' under any name, breed disaster. That was (maybe still is) also the #1 cause of aviation accidents. Highlighter state of alertness from rapid success of events (speed) improves alertness, focus and combats overconfidence. Yes, go fast as long as road (including weather and traffic) conditions allow.

Time and distance are indistinguishable from each other no the road. As I said, I keep and suggest others do, keep an increased distance so you have time to react as the conditions (car doing crazy stuff in front of you, or slowing down) ocurr.
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Old 01-14-2017, 02:05 AM   #8
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The link appears to be talking about the physics of a collision - that death can and does occur more at lower speeds. What the graph doesn't show is where the lower speed deaths take place. I would guess they occur more in metropolitan areas where there is a greater density of cars and therefore increased opportunities for collisions. Or does the "Highway" data only refer to interstate accidents?
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Old 01-14-2017, 02:37 AM   #9
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City or Wrighways data

It is a good question. The data is produced from the US National Highway Safety Administration. See the graph I attached, in the caption please.

As the data shows, and makes sense, slow moving vehicles cause accidents more often than the rapid moving ones. They (we too) are more prone to distractions, using mobile phones, get the eyes of the road when going slow.

Going fast may induce adrenaline with the accompanying need to focus on what we are doing.

Slow vehicles force us to change lanes to pass them. Yet another layer of safety compromise for the rest of us.

The truth (as the data backs me up) is often counter intuitive. Grandma was not always right
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Old 01-14-2017, 03:40 AM   #10
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going slow - in a parking lot or garage

"The National Safety Council finds as many as two-thirds of drivers may be pulling into shopping centers distracted. One in five accidents happen in parking lots…
… the National Safety Council found on average at least 60,000 are injured and 500 or more die in the 50,000 plus crashes in parking lots and garages every year.
…A recent survey found 66 percent felt comfortable making calls while driving in a parking lot, and more than half would text. Roughly half of drivers were OK with sending emails, using social media, taking pictures or watching videos. Forty-two percent said they would video chat."
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Old 01-14-2017, 04:19 AM   #11
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To the op. I have 400000 miles motorcycling, thousands of miles towing an rv and always go slow. Good luck with your facts, eventually they will bite you and then you will slow down.
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Old 01-14-2017, 05:10 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitaver View Post
http://mpainesyd.com/idisk/Public/ca...eeds_jan07.pdf


Question: Half of all fatal car accidents occur at or below what impact speed?

The US government carries out detailed crash reconstructions of a sample of fatal crashes in order to better understand the factors that led to the crash and the resulting injuries. By analysing the data for seat-belt wearing drivers killed in frontal crashes between 1993 and 1997 they found that half of all fatalities occurred at an impact speed (or "delta V") of 50km/h or less.



Caption: Impact speeds for US crashes
While it is true that a crash at high speed is more likely to have a fatal outcome, there are many more crashes at the lower speeds and there are just as many fatal crashes below 50km/h as above this impact speed.
Interesting how two people (the OP and me) can read the same paper and come away with what seems like the opposite impression.

"half of all fatalities occurred at an impact speed (or "delta V") of 50km/h or less"

Doesn't this also mean that half of all fatalities occurred at impact speed of 50km/h or greater? If so, going fast isn't any more safe than going slow.

This study, while I presume true, doesn't really get into the details of how many crashes occur on city street, intersections, etc. that are relatively slow speed situations compared to high speed situations such as interstates (limited access) and divided highways with side access points and crossovers.

As with many subjects you can probably make a case for whatever argument you choose. For me I choose to travel at a speed that is suitable in my mind for the weather, traffic, road conditions and my condition. That is usually a bit slower than most everyone else while trying to be aware that I don't want to be on obstacle.
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Old 01-14-2017, 05:35 AM   #13
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It would help to quantify fast and slow IMO.

On an Interstate, with the following speed limits, at what speed do you tow?

55 -- I tow at 63 or so.
65 -- tow at 65 plus or minus.

Vitaver please define "fast" relative to these two Interstate scenarios.

With reference to the thread in which you tried to justify driving in a lane which had been closed to traffic, is it possible that similar reasoning obtains here?

The laws of physics do not change, and stopping a speeding rig becomes more difficult with the square of the increased velocity, doesn't it?

Just sayin' . . .

Depending on how one defines fast the notion of hubris may be visible just over the horizon. IMO

Stay safe out there people, there are drivers with very active minds!

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Old 01-14-2017, 05:39 AM   #14
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Guys and Gals! It's full moon time of the month and the contentious threads abound. OP is just moonstruck and jackin' with you. I know he can't be contrary with all the refuting physics and data which definitively contradicts his statements.
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Old 01-14-2017, 05:52 AM   #15
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So the op is just a troll?
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Old 01-14-2017, 05:58 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avionstream View Post
So the op is just a troll?
Well, maybe not.....I'm not here to try and substantiate it, but 33 years in customer service has taught me that there is truth in the theory of full moon affecting people. Both in frequency and passion of their "issues". I have noted the same kind of "tones" here on these forums.

A troll just gets their jollies by firing people up. I hadn't noted that out of OP in prior commentary. We do have one PROLIFIC troll who is very active right now, and has been for a couple months or so.
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:22 AM   #17
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Speed Kills

I think that the OP may be misinterpreting the data/graph. The study doesn't deal with speed being a causation factor in a collision, but rather the author demonstrates that your risk of dying in a frontal impact collision is high at speeds even below 50 km/h.

In another study by the same author, he published this graph which shows that the higher the speed the greater the risk for fatality in a collision.

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Name:	Travel Speed vs Casuality Crash Risk.jpeg
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There are "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" which is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments. (quoted from Mark Twain)
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:40 AM   #18
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Downs syndrome

People with Downs Symdrome who are classified as high functioning are safer drivers than people with normal intelligence because they concentrate on nothimg but driving when they are behind the wheel.

Distracted driving at ANY speed is dangerous..
The real lesson is the same as the importance of having a pre-trip check off lisr AND using it every time you tow the trailer. It is an aid to thinking in a clear and focused way.

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Old 01-14-2017, 06:41 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sovereign25 View Post
"The National Safety Council finds as many as two-thirds of drivers may be pulling into shopping centers distracted. One in five accidents happen in parking lots…
… the National Safety Council found on average at least 60,000 are injured and 500 or more die in the 50,000 plus crashes in parking lots and garages every year.
…A recent survey found 66 percent felt comfortable making calls while driving in a parking lot, and more than half would text. Roughly half of drivers were OK with sending emails, using social media, taking pictures or watching videos. Forty-two percent said they would video chat."
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I ran a car rental company for 13 years and the number of accidents in parking lots IMO is much higher. For some reason some drivers think it is open season and don't follow lanes, speed across partly open lots etc. I hate parking lots and take the closest exit to leave and park (always back in) in the distance if I can. Insurance companies often don't determine "at Fault" and just share the blame between all vehicles and the cost but for many of us it increases premiums unjustly.
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Old 01-14-2017, 07:02 AM   #20
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Most impacts and property damage wit vehicles is while backing. Any fleet manager can attest to that. Mostly in parking lots. Thus the proliferation of rear cameras, cross traffic alert, and rear sonar systems. Has reduced "contact" significantly.
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