Gas/diesel

[Bill M.]

I spent some time looking for the reason for the higher cost of diesel over gasoline. There is more federal taxes on diesel. I think it is about 16 cents a gallon higher. These taxes are a result of trying to get some increased revenue for the damage the trucks do to the highway. The oil companies are pricing in a recovery cost for the investment to go to ultra low sulfur diesel. The refineries are apparently setup to yield as much gas as they can, so supply and demand enter in to the equation. And there is a steady demand for diesel from the trucking industry. Here I see about a 40-50 cent gas to diesel differential. I see a 15 cent difference in diesel prices between stations.
Another positive factor for me is that I was able to buy my diesel truck for about the same price as a gas truck. At the time I bought the lots were flooded with Dodge diesels and they were giving huge amounts off.

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by SteveH

You are right, Brian, they each have their advantages, and those that swear by one, will probably swear at the other.

From another thread: "Diesels are expensive, heavy, expensive to maintain, burn expensive fuel, and really don't make that much better fuel mileage with all the emissions equipment that must be used on them these days. Certainly not enough better to make it pay.

However, if you ever tow a heavy trailer with a gas truck, and then switch to a Diesel, you will not want to go back.

Another decision you will have to make....is the ease of driving and towing worth the cost? You know what my decision was, and I would only say I would probably go back to a gas truck if I were towing a 25 footer or lighter."

Personally, I would rather drive a 1/2 ton gas truck. It would be a nicer drive. But, I've studied all of them and could not find one that had an adequate tow rating AND weight capacity to do the job. And, I felt if I had to have a 3/4 ton to safely and comfortably handle the weight, I might as well have the Diesel along with it to easily and comfortably handle the tow in any terrain. YMMV

Hi, for me, a Diesel truck is too heavy and expensive. I would never like to drive one for running around town like I can with my Lincoln. I plan on keeping my 6,300 lb GVWR Safari, so a half ton would work better for me. The only reason, in my mind, to buy a Diesel, is purely for the torque needed to pull heavy loads. When not pulling a heavy load, it would be parked. My Lincoln is 14 years old and just over 110,000 miles on it and a few plastic dash board parts are beginning to crack; After so many miles, and time in years, a vehicle starts to fall apart. I don't care if the engine will go six million miles, the vehicle will be a miserable piece of crap. A gas engine will out last most vehicles on the road today.

[moosetags]

Our Suburban is approaching ten years old and 150,000 miles. She is starting to show her age and wear. When it is time for Olivia to go, we still want to maintain a second tow vehicle. We have already been dicusssing what we will replace Olivia with.

As the 3/4 ton Suburban has gone the way of the Dodo Bird, it looks like we will be going with a pick-up truck. We carry so much stuff that a 3/4 ton will probably be in order. I think that I lean toward going to gas, especially since the advent of the six speed transmission. I would also consider going diesel as I have really come to appreciate Fred's (the 3500 Duramax) towing capabilities and road manners.

We are probably about two years out from making a decision on Olivia's replacement. Hopefully, there will be some improvements in both arenas during the next couple years.

Brian

[Naper]

Originally Posted by AnnArborBob

I probably have a unique perspective on this particular issue since I have actually towed the same 2014 27' Eddie Bauer with both a gas and a diesel Ford F-250 within a period of a few weeks. The gas tow occurred when I borrowed a friend's gas F-250 to drive from Michigan to NJ and back to pick up our new AS from Colonial and my on-order diesel F-250 had not yet arrived (1,300 mile trip.) The diesel tow occurred a couple of weeks later when we towed to and from Jackson Center to attend Alumapalooza 5 with our new diesel truck (300 mile trip) as well as some "around the area" practice tows.

There were two principal parameters in the gas v.s. diesel process that I considered when I made my decision: 1) Operating Costs (principally fuel) and 2) Towing Capability (commonly referred to as "torque.")

Operating Costs (i.e., Fuel)
In comparing the MPG's in my example, kindly keep in mind that the gas vehicle we drove was fully broken in (50,000 miles) and the diesel vehicle only had about 750 miles which most diesel experts will agree is well before the diesel is getting it's best mileage. The gas version of the F-250 got 12 MPG on the highway (@65) when not towing and 8 MPG on the highway when towing the 27 ' Eddie Bauer (@60.) The "new" diesel F-250 currently gets about 16 MPG on the highway (@65) when not towing and about 12 MPG on the highway when towing (@60.) At the moment, gas and diesel cost about the same per gallon although until recently, diesel cost about 10% more than gas in our area. In the case of both vehicles, I was amazed at the MPG penalty that resulted from driving the 3/4 ton trucks at higher speeds, much more than I have seen in more conventional family vehicles such as passenger cars and small SUV's!

Assuming 15,000 miles of annual use with 50% towing and 50% not towing, the gas truck would be expected to use 1,563 gallons of fuel for a cost of $6,252 ($4.00 per gallon.) With the same driving profile, the diesel truck would be expected to use 1,094 gallons of fuel for a total cost of $4,376 ($4.00 per gallon.) The annual fuel cost savings of the diesel vs. gas truck is thus projected to be about $1,876. Please note that I am not including any non-fuel incremental costs of operating the diesel vs. gas truck in the following analysis because #1 I do not yet have any experience from which I can get actual data and #2 in the big picture of $4,300 and $6,200 fuel bills, I tend to think that the added annual operating costs of diesel vs. gas would be relatively small (I invite anyone with actual figures for this to weigh in and if it makes a significant difference, I'll gladly update the analysis.)

The current retail price premium for the diesel engine in a Ford F-250 is about $8,300. Thus, with an annual savings of $1,876, the added cost of the diesel engine would be recouped in about 4 1/2 years. Perhaps a little longer if diesel once again becomes more expensive than gasoline and if the other operating costs were significant. This 4 1/2 year period of time was well within my expected period of ownership of the truck so the diesel seemed to be a reasonable investment.

Towing Capability (i.e., Torque)
I did not have the benefit of the "side by side" towing comparison at the time I needed to make the gas vs. diesel decision but now that I've had the benefit of this comparison, I have to admit that it is dramatic. The gas version puts out 405 foot pounds of torque while the diesel version puts out an amazing 860 foot pounds of torque.

So what does this difference mean in the "real world?"

There is no doubt that the gas truck was (and is) capable of pulling the 27 ' AS anywhere. Even going uphill, the gas truck is capable of maintaining speed albeit at the cost of significant downshifting and relatively high engine rev's. But, with the gas truck, you know you are towing something behind you. Acceleration onto the highway is somewhat labored, kind of like driving an underpowered 4 cylinder economy car of yesteryear.

The diesel towing experience is quite different. It's like there is nothing back there. The diesel engine in our truck hums along at about 1,200 RPM's on the highway whether or not we are towing the trailer! When accelerating onto the highway, I need to be careful not to take off too fast for fear of pulling the A-frame out from under the AS! The hills around our area that I've towed on so far are not insignificant, but nothing like what I expect to see "out west." But extrapolating from what I've seen to date, I expect that towing up a 6% grade for a dozen miles will be a lot easier with the diesel than with the gas and I expect a whole lot less "drama."

So, with a 4 1/2 year payback, and vastly superior towing capabilities, I am very pleased with my decision so far.

You have not taken into consideration the higher value of your diesel truck as a trade or to sell a few years down the road. The diesel will be worth 4-5 K more than the comparable gas truck.

[Tater]

We recently made the gas to diesel switch. We had an 05 Silverado 5.3 that we ordered with a 3:73 rear end. When we purchased it we had no TT but thought we might eventually have one. Just before retirement we purchased a 30' SOB, and while it pulled it wasn't easy and we didn't take any trips outside Florida. In 08 we bought the first A/S a 22'Sport and that 5.3 didn't know it was attached it was so light. The next a 25' was easy except mountains. We topped the Smokies in lowest gear about 45 mph and higher temperature. Then came a 30' Classic and about the same except shifting into lower gears sooner. At ten years we trade trucks and we talk about what our future plans might include. When we discussed load carrying, braking and comfort towing we decided to get a diesel so we ordered a 15 Silverado 2500 LTZ. We've towed a car trailer to Texas and return so only 6,000 miles so far. Mileage is about 5 mpg better towing with the diesel. We loved the 05 gasser and had no problems with it so we stayed with Silverado. Pulling is no comparison. The 15 Silverado is set the cruise and enjoy the quiet ride. We'll be taking the A/S to Bristol in August so the mountains will give it a good test. We look forward to making the trip. I haven't had any service done and won't until next month before we pull a car trailer to Nebraska. BTW, the new 1500 Silverado we were considering with 6.2 engine would have pulled the trailer but loaded bumps the limits and requires premium gasoline which is sometimes more costly than diesel fuel.

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[Totoro]

I think that if you like to take day excursions once you reach your destination, then smaller gas engines are nice. We are currently camping in PA. We have traveled 412 miles to NYC and Hershey- managed to get 23mpg avg with a 2008 Jeep Commander Hemi 5.7.

[rostam]

We bought a diesel SUV because I am a diesel fan and also it would make sense financially. University of Michigan's Transportation Research Institute has done a comparison of Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) of gas vs diesel vehicles. They claim the TCO of a Diesel Mercedes-Benz GL (the vehicle we bought) will be $15,691 less than the gasser in a 5 year period. Granted GL is an SUV, but they claim even some diesel pickups have a lower TCO.

Here is a link to this research (I am attaching the PDF of the paper as well):

University of Michigan News Service | Diesel vehicles save owners thousands)

[Jim Flower]

Originally Posted by mok

I have towed my 23' International over 20,000 miles since 2008 with a 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7L Hemi. I only had to slow down in some climbs in Colorado. However, I only got 12 mpg towing, 15 all around, and 20 tops.

I recently traded it for a 2014 Grand Cherokee with the 3.0L diesel, but have yet to tow with it. The mpg difference is fantastic, averaging 26 all around and 31 highway. Given that the Hemi used mid grade gas, my fuel costs are way cheaper with the diesel

Now my question. The Hemi Jeep had a tow haul mode. The diesel does not, nor are good instructions about what gear to limit to. Anyone have info?

Hi mok,
I now have experience towing with the 2014 GC Diesel and can also comment on the difference between a gas Jeep (4.7) and the 3L Diesel. A tow haul mode with the fabulous 8 speed would be superfluous. It simply isn't needed. The Diesel just pulls and with the adaptive cruise control you just sit there and steer and let the systems do their thing. Of course, for fun, you can use the paddle shifters which do a similar thing as the old tow haul mode or a manual Trans. You have most likely already discovered that the new Diesel Jeep is a better vehicle in every way than your previous Jeep and you will find that it is a far more superior tow vehicle than the previous generations. My only concern is that the thing appears to be a rolling computer and any fix will require the use of stuff that I find intimidating. Jim

[dznf0g]

It costs more because it is (at least in 2011) the #1 US export item. It's worth more in Europe.

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[Bob4x4]

Originally Posted by pappy19

Just for the record I have owned 3 Ford diesels, a Chevy diesel and a VW diesel pickup. Been there done that.

no wonder you don't like diesel

[urnmor]

We have had our F 250 Diesel for two years and like it a lot and now even more that diesel is cheaper then mid and premium.

[SL4BLLT]

We're on our fourth tow vehicle being the 2005 2500 Duramax that we bought back on 2005 new. We are still on our first Airstream that we bought in 1996, the 1972 31' Land yacht.
Vehicle number 1, 1985 1500 Suburban standard 350 CI, under powered traded it as we had 120K on it.
vehicle number 2, 1996 GMC Suburban 454, 410 rear end, loved this vehicle. After replacing rear wheel seals (3x), new AC and with 150K it was not trustworthy so we traded it in 2002 for a
Vehicle number 3, a 2500 Avalanche 8.1, 410 rear end, brand new. Would have bought a new suburban, but there was NOT as 2500 on the lot and the incentives on the Avalanche were real good. This thing was a beast. But again, three rear ends under warranty replaced, we traded for the current
Vehicle number 4, Silverado (LT) 2500 Diesel TV in 2005. Avalanche had 72K on it.

All the vehicles I commuted in (DC, Colorado, Texas) and the diesel has had the better mileage. The avalanche was 12 mpg regardless of load.

With the new Chevy 355 engine, I would trade in a heart beat, if, IF, we start having problems with the Duramax. The estimated 17/23 with regular fuel we don't pull enough now to offset the diesel costs. However, you can buy allot of fuel for a $71K new suburban.

Just my thoughts, love the diesel, have had it 10 years and it tows effortlessly at 70-75 MPH getting o/a 16 mpg as long as I ensure that I set that odometer at 18-22 prior to putting the load on the truck. But is is a truck.

SL4BLLT

[pappy19]

Originally Posted by Naper

You have not taken into consideration the higher value of your diesel truck as a trade or to sell a few years down the road. The diesel will be worth 4-5 K more than the comparable gas truck.

This whole analysis is totally bogus. Gas is the same price as diesel??? You must be kidding. Oil changes and DEF alone adds $150 vs $20 for a gas oil change and $10 for a fuel filter every 15k. It really doesn't matter if you can tow 25k with a diesel engine when you are only towing around 10k with a 30' Classic. Paying $7-9,000 additional at the initial cost extra for a diesel engine can buy one hell of a lot of gasoline.Not to mention the extra cost of fuel additives, winter fuel issues and worry about bad fuel. I'll give you diesel heads the HP plus at around 25-35 HP difference than the new gas engines and I'll also give you 150-200 lbs. of torque, but you don't need it. One thing about all that torque is that you can get instantly stuck. Too much torque can get you in trouble. My 2008 V-10 can hang with every diesel engine on the market except for the latest ones from 2014. I have 140,000 miles and 1/2 is towing. It has never been to the shop except for a cruise control sensor. Changed the plugs at 90k, serviced the tranny and boxes every 50k. Best, most dependable truck I've ever owned.
BTW, there are more V-10's in Class C RV's than any all other engines combined including all diesels, reason being the V-10 is more dependable and cost less to operate than any other engine made. No brag just fact.

[pappy19]

Originally Posted by Bob4x4

no wonder you don't like diesel

I really have no problem with the Cummins diesel engine, but like has been said before, the biggest problem with the Cummins is the Dodge. Terrible frames, terrible front ends, terrible trannies, terrible electronics and terrible warranty issues. If you have a good one, then good on ya'. I work in the pipeline construction industry and most of the welders have Dodge trucks with the Cummins. I hear all of the problems with Dodge trucks. They all wish that Ford would run Cummins diesel engines. But.....the new Ford 6.7's are slowly taking the place of Dodge Cummins diesels. The question is still, does one need a diesel engine to tow an Airstream trailer, and the answer is NO, you don't need a diesel engine to tow an Airstream, a gas pickup will do the job for a lot less money, up front and for the long run.

[ghaynes755]

Pappy the V10 isn't offered in a current Ford Pickup looking at the Ford site. Appears it is only offered on commercial Ford chassis products. So in the context of a new pickup it is smaller V8 gas or Diesel. Diesel vs Premium fuel here in Colorado is 10-15 cents difference in price.

[SteveH]

Ford discontinued the V10 in pickups a few years ago I believe because of poor fuel mileage. They also have a history of spitting spark plugs out of their aluminum cylinder heads.

[moosetags]

Here in the Florida Panhandle, the price of diesel is about 5 cent per gallon less than premium grade gasoline. If I am reading here that some of the new gasoline pick-up engines recommend premium gas, the gas/diesel price differential goes out the window.

If this is the case, the diesel looks a lot better.

Brian

[DKB_SATX]

Originally Posted by moosetags

Here in the Florida Panhandle, the price of diesel is about 5 cent per gallon less than premium grade gasoline. If I am reading here that some of the new gasoline pick-up engines recommend premium gas, the gas/diesel price differential goes out the window.

If this is the case, the diesel looks a lot better.

Brian

As far as I know, only the Ecoboost V6 will show any benefit from using mid-grade or premium gas, since the turbo+direct injection can adjust to take advantage of the higher octane. It should only make a difference when demanding all the power you can get out of it. You can run regular in it with no ill effects other than lower peak output. I think the 5.0 Coyote also specs regular unleaded, but I wouldn't swear to that without doing some research.

The Ecotec3 engines in Chevy/GMC trucks and the V6 and HEMI in RAM trucks all recommend regular, though I think in the "hot rod" HEMI trims they may recommend mid-grade. The current Tundra 5.7 also specs regular unleaded, if I recall correctly.

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by moosetags

Here in the Florida Panhandle, the price of diesel is about 5 cent per gallon less than premium grade gasoline. If I am reading here that some of the new gasoline pick-up engines recommend premium Gas, the gas/diesel price differential goes out the window.

If this is the case, the diesel looks a lot better.

Brian

Hi, we can't base anything on the price of Gas versus Diesel; In my area, for the longest time, Diesel cost quite a bit more than Premium fuel and now is the same, or lower than Regular. So take your advantage when your fuel is at the best price. Note: all Gas stations have Gas, but not all of them have Diesel.

[r carl]

Originally Posted by ghaynes755

Pappy the V10 isn't offered in a current Ford Pickup looking at the Ford site. Appears it is only offered on commercial Ford chassis products. So in the context of a new pickup it is smaller V8 gas or Diesel. Diesel vs Premium fuel here in Colorado is 10-15 cents difference in price.

Since when do work trucks require premium?