Gas/diesel

[AnnArborBob]

I've been keeping an eye on the cost of diesel vs. gas in our area (SE MI) for the past couple of years the cost of diesel has generally been about 10 - 15% more expensive per gallon than gas. Recently that relationship has changed and diesel is about the same cost as regular gasoline. In one case, I actually paid about $0.20 per gallon less for diesel than for regular gasoline! Where it will be in a year is anyone's guess.

I provided all the information that one would need to rerun my previous analysis using any assumptions about the cost of fuel, miles driven, etc... in my previous post. I would encourage anyone to run the analysis using whatever assumptions you think apply to your situation and post them in this thread (along with your assumptions please.) No one is going to be impressed or moved to action based on unsubstantiated and emotional proclamations or rants. I'd like to think that the members of this forum are better than that!

I believe that anyone using any realistic real world assumptions would still get a payback period of going with diesel vs. gas to be less than six years (it was 4 1/2 using my assumptions which totally ignored the higher resale as someone pointed out.) And my numbers were based on a new truck, I'm sure that the difference in cost between a comparable used diesel vs. used gas truck is less than the $8,300 premium for the new Ford which would shorten the payback period.

I still maintain that in the scheme of $4,000 to $6,000 annual fuel purchases, a couple hundred dollars a year for DEF and more expensive oil changes are irrelevant.)

So what does all this number pushing mean to me? In my opinion, the relatively short payback period renders the cost premium of diesel vs. gas truck somewhat moot.

That means you should get the type of engine that you prefer tow with and get out there to enjoy the camping experience!

[msmcv51]

Had a F150 5.4 with a 3.55 rear end towing a 6,000 pound 25 footer and it did alright. Then I bought a new to me F250 V10 with 4.10 rear end towing the same 25 footer. The gas mileage is about the same at 10 to 11 when towing, but man what a difference in performance. I figure that I would have to tow between 200,000 and 300,000 miles to make up the difference between the F250 V10 and a new diesel. I have been told by others in two camping groups that there is not that much difference between the two.

[AnnArborBob]

MSMCV51 - Kindly share your analysis in which you figure it will take several hundred thousand miles of driving to make up the added cost of a diesel F-250 vs. the gas model. I'd be fascinated to see your assumptions.

[SteveH]

Originally Posted by msmcv51

I have been told by others in two camping groups that there is not that much difference between the two.

If you consider the difference between 457 and 800 ft. lbs. of torque, "not that much difference between the two", then maybe.

You will never understand what a difference there is between any gasser and a Diesel until you tow with one.

[J. Morgan]

As a family we own couple of Duramax's. A Ford 6.0, and a couple of Dodge Cummins in a commercial fleet along with a few Ford V10s and several GM LS engined vehicles.

I can say with honesty that the GM and Ford diesels have serious reliability problems, and have proved problematic and expensive to keep running.

I am not a fan , every several years I fall for the line that the reliability issues have been fixed and i set myself up to be disappointed once again.

The only diesel made by the big three that is even close to making sense economically is the Cummins.

The gas motors Ford and GM alike routinely last beyond 200k without issue.

By the way, i have really WANTED to say these diesels are just great but i cant do so in honesty.

My first Diesel truck was a new 82 chevy with the 6,2... They said all of the reliability issues of the 5.7 diesels had been fixed....

[Lance M]

I grew up on a farm in Iowa, so to me, the sound and smell of diesel is wonderful.
I had never towed with a diesel until recently. I liked it so much I ordered a new RAM 1500 diesel.
There is more energy in a gallon of diesel than there is in a gallon of gasoline.

I love this debate!

[Jim Flower]

Originally Posted by Top

I grew up on a farm in Iowa, so to me, the sound and smell of diesel is wonderful.

To me, that's a good enough reason to own one. Jim

[switz]

We crossed the CAT scales at 18,860 pounds the other day and the truck was supporting 10,600 of those pounds. Still a 1,000 pounds below tire and axle ratings and way under the 10,000 pound rating of the rear air bag suspension. The back end of the truck was loaded for a worst case towing exercise with both generators, two gas cans, spare propane, Weber gas grill with stand, 18 gallons of water, tools, two sets of extra chairs the wife wanted along and other stuff.

The Cummins had no issues with the mountains either in California and Arizona or New Mexico on the second trip. Increased oil filtration and cooling for both the engine and transmission, larger differential covers to hold a quart more oil front and rear and the engine temps, EGT, fuel rail pressure and boost all were in the green maintaining 65 mph were it was legal.

For us, the ¾ Dodge Ram 2500HD is the proper vehicle for our loaded camping style.

[carl2591]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

As a family we own couple of Duramax's. A Ford 6.0, and a couple of Dodge Cummins in a commercial fleet along with a few Ford V10s and several GM LS engined vehicles.

I can say with honesty that the GM and Ford diesels have serious reliability problems, and have proved problematic and expensive to keep running.

I am not a fan , every several years I fall for the line that the reliability issues have been fixed and i set myself up to be disappointed once again.

The only diesel made by the big three that is even close to making sense economically is the Cummins.

The gas motors Ford and GM alike routinely last beyond 200k without issue.

By the way, i have really WANTED to say these diesels are just great but i cant do so in honesty.

My first Diesel truck was a new 82 chevy with the 6,2... They said all of the reliability issues of the 5.7 diesels had been fixed....

have to say if you look around you see the 6.0 is the WORST ford diesel ever.. as for the GM i think the LZ engine is the one to get.

The 6.7L ford diesel so far has been more trouble free vs 6.0L, The 2003.5 6.0's are the worst and 2006 are better. Forget the 6.4L diesels the MPG on them is horrible in reading the ford diesel forums.

so you are correct the Cummings is the better of what you mentioned. you just got the back luck of getting the bad engines from ford and gm at the time.

[pappy19]

Originally Posted by ghaynes755

Pappy the V10 isn't offered in a current Ford Pickup looking at the Ford site. Appears it is only offered on commercial Ford chassis products. So in the context of a new pickup it is smaller V8 gas or Diesel. Diesel vs Premium fuel here in Colorado is 10-15 cents difference in price.

You are right of course, but they still offer it in the 450-650 for dump trucks and stake bodies. The new 6.2 V-8 has become a very desireable engine and I know of a few friends that have them as work vehicles and love them. The HP and torque on the 6.2's are very close to the V-10.

[pappy19]

Originally Posted by SteveH

Ford discontinued the V10 in pickups a few years ago I believe because of poor fuel mileage. They also have a history of spitting spark plugs out of their aluminum cylinder heads.

True for only 2 years, 1999 and 2000, after that no more plug issues and that was a small percent. One thing about it, even with one plug spit, the V-10 ran. The best of the V-10's IMHO, are from 2005-20010 with the 3 valve 365 HP and the 5 speed TorqueShift tranny. Lots of power and a great hookup with that tranny. You can still get the V-10 in most Class C RV's and is the king of the Class C engines.

[Bob4x4]

I have yet to see any gas engine hang with me on the grades,My first tow with the 05 I headed up to the sierras for a good test with the bone stock Cummins.75mph up Sherwin grade with the cruise control on blowing ice cold a/c.in the summer heat.
Do we need a diesel? No of course not but we don't need to pay a huge premium to buy an airstream with less interior space than just about any other trailer on the market either

[DKB_SATX]

Pappy19 re: the V10 being the "King of the Class C"... are they going to continue to make cab-chassis E-series for that market when they phase out the E-series in favor of the Transit? I haven't heard anything about the cab-chassis market, but it's not a market to which I pay much attention.

Various others re: Cummins... there is no G in Cummins. 7 characters long, no G.

[Grand Master]

I've towed our Trade Wind for the last 5 years with a 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee with the 3.0L Mercedes Benz diesel. We have put 140,000 miles on it (about 40% towing). Not a moments trouble, and we've been coast to coast several times and up most of the challenging grades the Interstate system has to offer. I really appreciate that the diesel engine never has to work hard, no matter what the grade. I don't believe I have ever seen the rpm's over 2300.

I like this engine so much that I have bought a new Mercedes ML350 Bluetec diesel. I will pick it up next week. Jeep discontinued the Mercedes diesel option in 2008. in 2014 Jeep again offeres a diesel Grand Cherokee, but it is a Fiat diesel. It may turn out to be a great engine, but it is unproven and there are some reports of overheating when towing. I am so sold on the Mercedes diesel that I just bit the bullet and bought a whole Mercedes Benz.

Next year (2015) Mercedes will discontinue putting the 3.0L 6 cylinder diesel in the M class, and substitute the 2 liter 4 cylinder diesel. It's a great engine, but not adequate for towing our Airstream. I decided I better pick up one of the few remaining 2014 ML350's with the 3.0L Bluetec. It should last me many years of towing our Airstream.

[Bob4x4]

Another reason to avoid a gas tow rig.Not trying to pick on you Pappy but the worst mileage I have ever gotten has been 13.5mpg.Granted your trailer is a bit heavier than mine.My friend with the Long trailer like yours has never been below 11 and his truck is over geared with 3.73 gears and some 35'' tires


.Right now we are experiencing some foul weather in northern Ohio. We had a lot of head and side winds coming across the prairie states. I plan on publishing my mpg on this trip at the end for our 2008 V-10. Our last trip I averaged 8.6 mpg towing around 5,000 miles.

Pap
__________________
2008 F-250 4X4 Lariat V-10
2002 Airstream Classic 30' w/SO #2074
2007 Kubota 900 RTV
1996 Ford Bronco
2007 Lincoln LTnother good reason to not tow with gas

[J. Morgan]

"""""so you are correct the Cummings is the better of what you mentioned. you just got the back luck of getting the bad engines from ford and gm at the time.""""

For what these trucks cost, there shouldn't be "bad years".

I have owned a lot of Diesel pickup trucks over the past thirty years, and out of experience I will state again that experience has taught me that the only diesel pickup that makes any economic sense at all is the Cummins, and it does not make as much economic sense as gas motored trucks. Sorry, it is just true.

While it may be true that a diesel powered truck might pull St. Augustine's Pass 70 MPH at 26,000 lbs GVW where even a V10 wont, the V10 or V8 will be much more reliable than its Ford and GM diesel brethren, and for less up front cost.

[J. Morgan]

At near 50 years old, it isn't nearly as important for me to be the fastest up hill racer as it used to be.

Practicality is under rated.

[FlashSilver]

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner3

The cost of fuel is a state to state variable in the cost analysis. I have seen highway diesel be as much as $0.80 per gallon higher than 87 octane gas in the last 10 months where I live. Diesel seems to have averaged about 40 to 50 cents more per gallon than regular gas, for several years, in the areas I typically travel. I never have understood why diesel costs more than gasoline. It must be the taxes on highway diesel.

Supply and demand. The oil companies control the supply, the demand is close to constant. So diesel cost more when the oil companies want it to.

[Steve & Mary]

Love my 2012 F-250 6.7 Power Stroke. And I tow with a diesel because I CAN :-)

[xrvr]

Oil change on my Cummins is 59 dollars at the dealer. Jim