Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-08-2014, 11:12 AM   #15
Rivet Master
 
1988 25' Excella
1987 32' Excella
Knoxville , Tennessee
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,164
Blog Entries: 1
I tow with a diesel. I would love to "drive the same truck" for 300,000 miles. So far I only have 130,000 on it. The only gas truck I towed with was a F150. I certainly like the diesel better. My towing fuel milage went from 10 to 15 mph. My non towing milage went from 17 to 20. I the higher milage even though overall the diesel might or might not cost more to run. There is certainly that much less CO2 returned to the atmosphere if you worry about that. (however particulates and NO emissions are higher). I have not yet driven a 250 ir 2500 with a gas engine. I might like them too. But since I am trying for 300,000 or so on this one it is a mute issue unless something really bad happens.
__________________

__________________
Bill M. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 12:17 PM   #16
Slide Out Society #001
 
GCinSC2's Avatar
 
2007 30' Classic S/O
Somewhere , South Carolina
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,053
Owned my 05 Dodge Ram 2500 5.9L Cummins 6 speed since 05 has about 170K on it.

We just pulled I-77 into VA from NC, Fancy Gap. First trip to VA Highland Haven, worth the trip BTW. About 7 miles of 7% grade give or take. While it's not the everyday route that Cummins acted like a draft horse in harness it just pulled. Didn't try to race it up the hill but the engine picked up about 15 deg or so on engine temp with A/C running and the EGT was 1000 to 1100 deg F while pulling. Still had engine left over that I didn't need. Temps and EGT dropped back as soon as we crested. A good workout and we maintained about 55 or so pulling in 5th.
My truck is a 6 speed manual and pulling that grade in overdrive, not recommended for the trans, but 5th is 1:1 and it takes it.

On the flats in 6th it hits the sweet spot for the engine and it's just time to enjoy the view.

I got fascinated by the Cummins, own two of them. It's not quick, makes noises that a Diesel nut can recognize the series by sound alone but it's just built for the job, pulling.

One thing I really appreciate about the 05 and 97 is the lack of clutter under the hood. Cab will never have to come off. Today's compression ignition engines have gotten a bit more "involved" under the hood.

But it's so much like Harley vs Honda, smooth vs crunchy, bolt action vs semi auto or any polar opposite of to same thing you can quote.

Make your choice, analyze the numbers but hope to meet ya over a campfire.

Spark plug free since 2005.

Gary
__________________

__________________
S/OS #001
2005 Dodge Ram 2500 5.9L 6 Speed
16" Michelins, Hi Spec Wheels, Max Brake, Carslile Actuator, Equal-i-zer, Dill TPMS. Campfire cook.
GCinSC2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 12:24 PM   #17
Rivet Master
 
AnnArborBob's Avatar
 
2014 27' FB Eddie Bauer
Chelsea , Michigan
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,767
Images: 12
Gas vs. Diesel

I probably have a unique perspective on this particular issue since I have actually towed the same 2014 27' Eddie Bauer with both a gas and a diesel Ford F-250 within a period of a few weeks. The gas tow occurred when I borrowed a friend's gas F-250 to drive from Michigan to NJ and back to pick up our new AS from Colonial and my on-order diesel F-250 had not yet arrived (1,300 mile trip.) The diesel tow occurred a couple of weeks later when we towed to and from Jackson Center to attend Alumapalooza 5 with our new diesel truck (300 mile trip) as well as some "around the area" practice tows.

There were two principal parameters in the gas v.s. diesel process that I considered when I made my decision: 1) Operating Costs (principally fuel) and 2) Towing Capability (commonly referred to as "torque.")

Operating Costs (i.e., Fuel)
In comparing the MPG's in my example, kindly keep in mind that the gas vehicle we drove was fully broken in (50,000 miles) and the diesel vehicle only had about 750 miles which most diesel experts will agree is well before the diesel is getting it's best mileage. The gas version of the F-250 got 12 MPG on the highway (@65) when not towing and 8 MPG on the highway when towing the 27 ' Eddie Bauer (@60.) The "new" diesel F-250 currently gets about 16 MPG on the highway (@65) when not towing and about 12 MPG on the highway when towing (@60.) At the moment, gas and diesel cost about the same per gallon although until recently, diesel cost about 10% more than gas in our area. In the case of both vehicles, I was amazed at the MPG penalty that resulted from driving the 3/4 ton trucks at higher speeds, much more than I have seen in more conventional family vehicles such as passenger cars and small SUV's!

Assuming 15,000 miles of annual use with 50% towing and 50% not towing, the gas truck would be expected to use 1,563 gallons of fuel for a cost of $6,252 ($4.00 per gallon.) With the same driving profile, the diesel truck would be expected to use 1,094 gallons of fuel for a total cost of $4,376 ($4.00 per gallon.) The annual fuel cost savings of the diesel vs. gas truck is thus projected to be about $1,876. Please note that I am not including any non-fuel incremental costs of operating the diesel vs. gas truck in the following analysis because #1 I do not yet have any experience from which I can get actual data and #2 in the big picture of $4,300 and $6,200 fuel bills, I tend to think that the added annual operating costs of diesel vs. gas would be relatively small (I invite anyone with actual figures for this to weigh in and if it makes a significant difference, I'll gladly update the analysis.)

The current retail price premium for the diesel engine in a Ford F-250 is about $8,300. Thus, with an annual savings of $1,876, the added cost of the diesel engine would be recouped in about 4 1/2 years. Perhaps a little longer if diesel once again becomes more expensive than gasoline and if the other operating costs were significant. This 4 1/2 year period of time was well within my expected period of ownership of the truck so the diesel seemed to be a reasonable investment.

Towing Capability (i.e., Torque)

I did not have the benefit of the "side by side" towing comparison at the time I needed to make the gas vs. diesel decision but now that I've had the benefit of this comparison, I have to admit that it is dramatic. The gas version puts out 405 foot pounds of torque while the diesel version puts out an amazing 860 foot pounds of torque.

So what does this difference mean in the "real world?"

There is no doubt that the gas truck was (and is) capable of pulling the 27 ' AS anywhere. Even going uphill, the gas truck is capable of maintaining speed albeit at the cost of significant downshifting and relatively high engine rev's. But, with the gas truck, you know you are towing something behind you. Acceleration onto the highway is somewhat labored, kind of like driving an underpowered 4 cylinder economy car of yesteryear.

The diesel towing experience is quite different. It's like there is nothing back there. The diesel engine in our truck hums along at about 1,200 RPM's on the highway whether or not we are towing the trailer! When accelerating onto the highway, I need to be careful not to take off too fast for fear of pulling the A-frame out from under the AS! The hills around our area that I've towed on so far are not insignificant, but nothing like what I expect to see "out west." But extrapolating from what I've seen to date, I expect that towing up a 6% grade for a dozen miles will be a lot easier with the diesel than with the gas and I expect a whole lot less "drama."

So, with a 4 1/2 year payback, and vastly superior towing capabilities, I am very pleased with my decision so far.

__________________
Bob Martel
WBCCI# 5766
AnnArborBob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 12:51 PM   #18
Moderator
 
moosetags's Avatar

 
2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
2012 23' FB Flying Cloud
2005 25' Safari
Santa Rosa Beach , Florida
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,763
Images: 5
That's a very nice real world assessment, Bob. Thank you for taking the time to provide this information. I am sure that many will find it helpful. I know that I did.

Brian
__________________
SuEllyn & Brian McCabe
WBCCI #3628 -- AIR #14872 -- TAC #FL-7
2015 FC 25' FB (Lucy) with HAHA
2005 Suburban 2500 Quadrasteer (Olivia) & 2018 Silverado 2500 (Lillian)
moosetags is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 12:59 PM   #19
Rivet Master
 
Ridgerunner3's Avatar
 
2002 25' Safari
Fountain Inn , South Carolina
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 659
Images: 11
The cost of fuel is a state to state variable in the cost analysis. I have seen highway diesel be as much as $0.80 per gallon higher than 87 octane gas in the last 10 months where I live. Diesel seems to have averaged about 40 to 50 cents more per gallon than regular gas, for several years, in the areas I typically travel. I never have understood why diesel costs more than gasoline. It must be the taxes on highway diesel.
__________________
Bud
Ridgerunner3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 01:17 PM   #20
Rivet Master
 
SteveH's Avatar
 
2005 39' Land Yacht 390 XL 396
Common Sense , Texas
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner3 View Post
The cost of fuel is a state to state variable in the cost analysis. I have seen highway diesel be as much as $0.80 per gallon higher than 87 octane gas in the last 10 months where I live. Diesel seems to have averaged about 40 to 50 cents more per gallon than regular gas, for several years, in the areas I typically travel. I never have understood why diesel costs more than gasoline. It must be the taxes on highway diesel.
Diesel costs more than gasoline now because of the EPA mandated ultra low sulphur content. It increases refining costs. In the days before this requirement, Diesel was cheaper than gasoline.
__________________
Regards,
Steve
SteveH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 01:26 PM   #21
Rivet Master
 
1988 25' Excella
1987 32' Excella
Knoxville , Tennessee
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,164
Blog Entries: 1
I spent some time looking for the reason for the higher cost of diesel over gasoline. There is more federal taxes on diesel. I think it is about 16 cents a gallon higher. These taxes are a result of trying to get some increased revenue for the damage the trucks do to the highway. The oil companies are pricing in a recovery cost for the investment to go to ultra low sulfur diesel. The refineries are apparently setup to yield as much gas as they can, so supply and demand enter in to the equation. And there is a steady demand for diesel from the trucking industry. Here I see about a 40-50 cent gas to diesel differential. I see a 15 cent difference in diesel prices between stations.
Another positive factor for me is that I was able to buy my diesel truck for about the same price as a gas truck. At the time I bought the lots were flooded with Dodge diesels and they were giving huge amounts off.
__________________
Bill M. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 01:37 PM   #22
Rivet Master
 
ROBERTSUNRUS's Avatar

 
2005 25' Safari
Salem , Oregon
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,269
Images: 18
Blog Entries: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
You are right, Brian, they each have their advantages, and those that swear by one, will probably swear at the other.

From another thread: "Diesels are expensive, heavy, expensive to maintain, burn expensive fuel, and really don't make that much better fuel mileage with all the emissions equipment that must be used on them these days. Certainly not enough better to make it pay.

However, if you ever tow a heavy trailer with a gas truck, and then switch to a Diesel, you will not want to go back.

Another decision you will have to make....is the ease of driving and towing worth the cost? You know what my decision was, and I would only say I would probably go back to a gas truck if I were towing a 25 footer or lighter."

Personally, I would rather drive a 1/2 ton gas truck. It would be a nicer drive. But, I've studied all of them and could not find one that had an adequate tow rating AND weight capacity to do the job. And, I felt if I had to have a 3/4 ton to safely and comfortably handle the weight, I might as well have the Diesel along with it to easily and comfortably handle the tow in any terrain. YMMV
Hi, for me, a Diesel truck is too heavy and expensive. I would never like to drive one for running around town like I can with my Lincoln. I plan on keeping my 6,300 lb GVWR Safari, so a half ton would work better for me. The only reason, in my mind, to buy a Diesel, is purely for the torque needed to pull heavy loads. When not pulling a heavy load, it would be parked. My Lincoln is 14 years old and just over 110,000 miles on it and a few plastic dash board parts are beginning to crack; After so many miles, and time in years, a vehicle starts to fall apart. I don't care if the engine will go six million miles, the vehicle will be a miserable piece of crap. A gas engine will out last most vehicles on the road today.
__________________
Bob

2005 Safari 25-B
"Le Petit Chateau Argent"
[ Small Silver Castle ]
2000 Navigator / 2014 F-150 Eco-Boost / Equal-i-zer / P-3
YAMAHA 2400 / AIR #12144
ROBERTSUNRUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 02:07 PM   #23
Moderator
 
moosetags's Avatar

 
2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
2012 23' FB Flying Cloud
2005 25' Safari
Santa Rosa Beach , Florida
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,763
Images: 5
Our Suburban is approaching ten years old and 150,000 miles. She is starting to show her age and wear. When it is time for Olivia to go, we still want to maintain a second tow vehicle. We have already been dicusssing what we will replace Olivia with.

As the 3/4 ton Suburban has gone the way of the Dodo Bird, it looks like we will be going with a pick-up truck. We carry so much stuff that a 3/4 ton will probably be in order. I think that I lean toward going to gas, especially since the advent of the six speed transmission. I would also consider going diesel as I have really come to appreciate Fred's (the 3500 Duramax) towing capabilities and road manners.

We are probably about two years out from making a decision on Olivia's replacement. Hopefully, there will be some improvements in both arenas during the next couple years.

Brian
__________________
SuEllyn & Brian McCabe
WBCCI #3628 -- AIR #14872 -- TAC #FL-7
2015 FC 25' FB (Lucy) with HAHA
2005 Suburban 2500 Quadrasteer (Olivia) & 2018 Silverado 2500 (Lillian)
moosetags is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 03:07 PM   #24
Rivet Master
 
Naper's Avatar
 
2017 30' Classic
Loretto , Ontario
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 504
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnArborBob View Post
I probably have a unique perspective on this particular issue since I have actually towed the same 2014 27' Eddie Bauer with both a gas and a diesel Ford F-250 within a period of a few weeks. The gas tow occurred when I borrowed a friend's gas F-250 to drive from Michigan to NJ and back to pick up our new AS from Colonial and my on-order diesel F-250 had not yet arrived (1,300 mile trip.) The diesel tow occurred a couple of weeks later when we towed to and from Jackson Center to attend Alumapalooza 5 with our new diesel truck (300 mile trip) as well as some "around the area" practice tows.

There were two principal parameters in the gas v.s. diesel process that I considered when I made my decision: 1) Operating Costs (principally fuel) and 2) Towing Capability (commonly referred to as "torque.")

Operating Costs (i.e., Fuel)
In comparing the MPG's in my example, kindly keep in mind that the gas vehicle we drove was fully broken in (50,000 miles) and the diesel vehicle only had about 750 miles which most diesel experts will agree is well before the diesel is getting it's best mileage. The gas version of the F-250 got 12 MPG on the highway (@65) when not towing and 8 MPG on the highway when towing the 27 ' Eddie Bauer (@60.) The "new" diesel F-250 currently gets about 16 MPG on the highway (@65) when not towing and about 12 MPG on the highway when towing (@60.) At the moment, gas and diesel cost about the same per gallon although until recently, diesel cost about 10% more than gas in our area. In the case of both vehicles, I was amazed at the MPG penalty that resulted from driving the 3/4 ton trucks at higher speeds, much more than I have seen in more conventional family vehicles such as passenger cars and small SUV's!

Assuming 15,000 miles of annual use with 50% towing and 50% not towing, the gas truck would be expected to use 1,563 gallons of fuel for a cost of $6,252 ($4.00 per gallon.) With the same driving profile, the diesel truck would be expected to use 1,094 gallons of fuel for a total cost of $4,376 ($4.00 per gallon.) The annual fuel cost savings of the diesel vs. gas truck is thus projected to be about $1,876. Please note that I am not including any non-fuel incremental costs of operating the diesel vs. gas truck in the following analysis because #1 I do not yet have any experience from which I can get actual data and #2 in the big picture of $4,300 and $6,200 fuel bills, I tend to think that the added annual operating costs of diesel vs. gas would be relatively small (I invite anyone with actual figures for this to weigh in and if it makes a significant difference, I'll gladly update the analysis.)

The current retail price premium for the diesel engine in a Ford F-250 is about $8,300. Thus, with an annual savings of $1,876, the added cost of the diesel engine would be recouped in about 4 1/2 years. Perhaps a little longer if diesel once again becomes more expensive than gasoline and if the other operating costs were significant. This 4 1/2 year period of time was well within my expected period of ownership of the truck so the diesel seemed to be a reasonable investment.

Towing Capability (i.e., Torque)

I did not have the benefit of the "side by side" towing comparison at the time I needed to make the gas vs. diesel decision but now that I've had the benefit of this comparison, I have to admit that it is dramatic. The gas version puts out 405 foot pounds of torque while the diesel version puts out an amazing 860 foot pounds of torque.

So what does this difference mean in the "real world?"

There is no doubt that the gas truck was (and is) capable of pulling the 27 ' AS anywhere. Even going uphill, the gas truck is capable of maintaining speed albeit at the cost of significant downshifting and relatively high engine rev's. But, with the gas truck, you know you are towing something behind you. Acceleration onto the highway is somewhat labored, kind of like driving an underpowered 4 cylinder economy car of yesteryear.

The diesel towing experience is quite different. It's like there is nothing back there. The diesel engine in our truck hums along at about 1,200 RPM's on the highway whether or not we are towing the trailer! When accelerating onto the highway, I need to be careful not to take off too fast for fear of pulling the A-frame out from under the AS! The hills around our area that I've towed on so far are not insignificant, but nothing like what I expect to see "out west." But extrapolating from what I've seen to date, I expect that towing up a 6% grade for a dozen miles will be a lot easier with the diesel than with the gas and I expect a whole lot less "drama."

So, with a 4 1/2 year payback, and vastly superior towing capabilities, I am very pleased with my decision so far.

You have not taken into consideration the higher value of your diesel truck as a trade or to sell a few years down the road. The diesel will be worth 4-5 K more than the comparable gas truck.
__________________
Naper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 03:19 PM   #25
4 Rivet Member
 
2012 30' Classic
Homosassa , Florida
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 452
We recently made the gas to diesel switch. We had an 05 Silverado 5.3 that we ordered with a 3:73 rear end. When we purchased it we had no TT but thought we might eventually have one. Just before retirement we purchased a 30' SOB, and while it pulled it wasn't easy and we didn't take any trips outside Florida. In 08 we bought the first A/S a 22'Sport and that 5.3 didn't know it was attached it was so light. The next a 25' was easy except mountains. We topped the Smokies in lowest gear about 45 mph and higher temperature. Then came a 30' Classic and about the same except shifting into lower gears sooner. At ten years we trade trucks and we talk about what our future plans might include. When we discussed load carrying, braking and comfort towing we decided to get a diesel so we ordered a 15 Silverado 2500 LTZ. We've towed a car trailer to Texas and return so only 6,000 miles so far. Mileage is about 5 mpg better towing with the diesel. We loved the 05 gasser and had no problems with it so we stayed with Silverado. Pulling is no comparison. The 15 Silverado is set the cruise and enjoy the quiet ride. We'll be taking the A/S to Bristol in August so the mountains will give it a good test. We look forward to making the trip. I haven't had any service done and won't until next month before we pull a car trailer to Nebraska. BTW, the new 1500 Silverado we were considering with 6.2 engine would have pulled the trailer but loaded bumps the limits and requires premium gasoline which is sometimes more costly than diesel fuel.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Airstream Forums mobile app
__________________
Tater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 03:27 PM   #26
2 Rivet Member
 
Totoro's Avatar
 
Huntington , West Virginia
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 77
I think that if you like to take day excursions once you reach your destination, then smaller gas engines are nice. We are currently camping in PA. We have traveled 412 miles to NYC and Hershey- managed to get 23mpg avg with a 2008 Jeep Commander Hemi 5.7.
__________________
Totoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 03:46 PM   #27
Rivet Master
 
Vintage Kin Owner
N/A , N/A
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 995
Images: 1
We bought a diesel SUV because I am a diesel fan and also it would make sense financially. University of Michigan's Transportation Research Institute has done a comparison of Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) of gas vs diesel vehicles. They claim the TCO of a Diesel Mercedes-Benz GL (the vehicle we bought) will be $15,691 less than the gasser in a 5 year period. Granted GL is an SUV, but they claim even some diesel pickups have a lower TCO.

Here is a link to this research (I am attaching the PDF of the paper as well):

University of Michigan News Service | Diesel vehicles save owners thousands)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 20130311_CD_UMTRITCOFinalReport_dd2017.pdf (784.1 KB, 57 views)
__________________
rostam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 04:33 PM   #28
Prairie Schooner II
 
Jim Flower's Avatar

 
2012 30' International
1997 25' Safari
1967 20' Globetrotter
Burlington , Ontario
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by mok View Post
I have towed my 23' International over 20,000 miles since 2008 with a 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7L Hemi. I only had to slow down in some climbs in Colorado. However, I only got 12 mpg towing, 15 all around, and 20 tops.

I recently traded it for a 2014 Grand Cherokee with the 3.0L diesel, but have yet to tow with it. The mpg difference is fantastic, averaging 26 all around and 31 highway. Given that the Hemi used mid grade gas, my fuel costs are way cheaper with the diesel

Now my question. The Hemi Jeep had a tow haul mode. The diesel does not, nor are good instructions about what gear to limit to. Anyone have info?

Hi mok,
I now have experience towing with the 2014 GC Diesel and can also comment on the difference between a gas Jeep (4.7) and the 3L Diesel. A tow haul mode with the fabulous 8 speed would be superfluous. It simply isn't needed. The Diesel just pulls and with the adaptive cruise control you just sit there and steer and let the systems do their thing. Of course, for fun, you can use the paddle shifters which do a similar thing as the old tow haul mode or a manual Trans. You have most likely already discovered that the new Diesel Jeep is a better vehicle in every way than your previous Jeep and you will find that it is a far more superior tow vehicle than the previous generations. My only concern is that the thing appears to be a rolling computer and any fix will require the use of stuff that I find intimidating. Jim
__________________

__________________
Jim
Jim Flower is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What fitting for GAS on Atwood gas/elec WH rlindberg Water Heaters, Filters & Pumps 1 04-10-2010 12:29 AM
3/4 Ton Test Drives (8.1L Sub Gas, Exc Diesel, F250 Diesel) big_john Tow Vehicles 7 02-21-2010 01:02 PM
Need pictures of gas line for Magic Chief oven gas connection dghaas General Repair Forum 1 01-30-2009 10:04 PM
Gas or No Gas, that's the question... oldtrucksrul LP Gas, Piping, Tanks & Regulators 14 11-16-2008 11:29 AM
Locking Gas Cap for 2003 AS Gas Motorhome spat61 Land Yacht/Legacy Motorhomes 11 10-27-2008 12:37 PM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.