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Old 11-10-2015, 11:32 PM   #29
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*REAL* black ice is the scariest condition you could encounter - I did once and totaled my car at the time (in 1974). The road looked dry and bare and when I stepped out of the car I slipped and fell. The ice had formed into tiny balls (like ball bearings) - the temperature was just below the freezing point. I was crossing a small bridge over a RR track and my car just spun out, hitting the guard rail with the front and then bouncing around and hitting it again with the rear. All the while, the road had the appearance of being bare and dry.
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Old 11-10-2015, 11:42 PM   #30
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Question from a West Coaster where it never freezes.......

How dod you see black ice if it's black?
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:05 AM   #31
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I'm not sure why some keep pumping the brakes with ABS.
Actually you ain't doing anything different than the ABS does. Just slower.

The idea behind the ABS is to keep your vehicle steerable while applying maximum brake power.
(There are situations when the stopping distance can be shorter with locked up wheels. Like deep snow. Because the locked up wheel is pushing the snow like a wedge in front of the tire.)

And when the trailer is coming sideways at you even with the lowest set up on the brake controller, then you shouldn't be on the road in those conditions anyway.
See it as... you took the chance and fu**ed up.

so long
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:07 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by interstateflyer View Post
Question from a West Coaster where it never freezes.......

How dod you see black ice if it's black?
That's exactly the point. You don't until it's too late.
I'm also from the west coast. We do have black ice. Best of luck to you when you wake up and notice!


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Old 11-11-2015, 02:47 AM   #33
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That's exactly the point. You don't until it's too late.
I'm also from the west coast. We do have black ice. Best of luck to you when you wake up and notice!


George
Thanks George. That really helps.
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Old 11-11-2015, 04:38 AM   #34
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Be especially cautious of black ice where there is traffic congestion and stop and go traffic. Exhaust vapor condenses on the cold roadway surfaces where traffic is stopped or moving slowwly. This is especially common when the temperature drops suddenly below the temperature where de-icing compounds lose effectiveness.

This happened frequently on the I-35 bridge over the Mississippi River in downtown Minneapolis. It happened so often that spray nozzles were installed on the bridge deck to automatically spray de-icing solution when the temperature dropped suddenly. The de-icing compound may have contributed to the corrosion which caused collapse of the bridge in 2007.
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Old 11-11-2015, 05:56 AM   #35
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Black Ice

Based upon my experience....driving 75 miles in this blizzard...

AirstreamREV_2009_Int_27FB_Snow_04.2010-3 by Tommie Lauer, on Flickr

And, having been raised in South Dakota, I would suggest if one hits black ice there is not a lot one can do. But, probably the safest is to maintain throttle so the drive wheels are simply turning without load or engine braking. While ABS is great, if the TV slows the trailer may come around. Been there, done that in the blizzard as the road was ice and the wind was about 30 - 40 mph.

As noted, be careful the TV does not down shift going up a hill and lose of traction may occur here as well. And, a limited slip differential is not your friend as both wheels tend to break loose together.

The 75 miles in the blizzard was done at 35 mph, about five semi's behind me talking on the CB.

Probably the best safety measure is to maintain very large following distances...like at least 100-150 feet at 35 mph so as to avoid rear ending the person infront. Also, huge following distance allows slowly reducing speed, thus making it easier for the person following you to avoid hitting you. Most folks follow way to closely, this being discovered a millisecond before the collision.

Good luck,
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Old 11-11-2015, 07:31 AM   #36
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As soon as I wake up, I thank my stars I was smart enough to stay off the roads. Then I pull the covers back over my head and go back to sleep.
After reading all the above posts, this one is the smartest one, very wise...
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Old 11-11-2015, 08:36 AM   #37
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It's really clear ice

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Originally Posted by interstateflyer View Post
Question from a West Coaster where it never freezes.......

How do you see black ice if it's black?
The ice is clear. Clear enough to see through, it's the pavement that is black. The point is that you don't see the ice until your car is on it and at the mercy of inertia.

It forms when freezing rain hits a road surface, or when melting snow re-freezes.

Best to stay put until it's gone.
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Old 11-11-2015, 08:55 AM   #38
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I'm not sure why some keep pumping the brakes with ABS.
Actually you ain't doing anything different than the ABS does. Just slower.

The idea behind the ABS is to keep your vehicle steerable while applying maximum brake power.
(There are situations when the stopping distance can be shorter with locked up wheels. Like deep snow. Because the locked up wheel is pushing the snow like a wedge in front of the tire.)

And when the trailer is coming sideways at you even with the lowest set up on the brake controller, then you shouldn't be on the road in those conditions anyway.
See it as... you took the chance and fu**ed up.

so long
j-ten-ner

Try locking the ABS brakes on ice some time and see what happens.
Every vehicle I've driven the wheels lock up as if there was no ABS, so I pump.
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Old 11-11-2015, 10:14 AM   #39
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Stay off black ice, of course.

I think we are talking about a situation when on the road and a storm comes up unexpected....as in my Wyoming blizzard. For sure, venturing out in icy conditions is less than wise.

When i was caught in 2009 the temperature at the beginning of the day was about 60 degrees and no forecast of snow. But, these things do occur and when no feasable stopping place is available, using extreme caution and driving with full attention is the action with less overall risk. Getting stranded in a blizzard can be life threatening.
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Old 11-11-2015, 10:35 AM   #40
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Question from a West Coaster where it never freezes.......

How dod you see black ice if it's black?
Watch your weather forecasts, always, wherever you are. They will warn you of freezing conditions, and to stay off the road. Listen to them, pay attention, and do what they say.

Black ice can occur when temps are hovering around, or below freezing, there has been some precipitation, and is worse on overpasses, bridges, any elevated road surface, Add wind, and it is even worse.

If you are traveling and become aware of freezing temps coming, especially with snow, rain, sleet, etc., find a place to hunker down and sit it out. Keep your propane and fuel tanks full, in case you find yourself doing this in a rest area or parking lot somewhere....which shouldn't happen, unless you are not watching and heeding the weather forecasts.

Wait until the sun is up or temps are high enough to thaw before driving, unless an absolute, life or death emergency.....in which case it is better to call police or an ambulance whenever possible.

Black ice, freezing to subzero temps, winds and wind chill to 40-60 degrees below zero are common occurrences in the Midwest, and our road crews are used to taking care of it. (I recall following the plow and salt trucks on the highway late one night, working and called out for an emergency.). We are also more accustomed to driving in freezing conditions, but still the sensible stay off the roads especially between dusk and dawn, when the weather forecasters tell us to.

Areas not used to this don't have the equipment to handle it, nor are the drivers accustomed to it. Stay...off...the...roads.

You really can travel in your Interstate in any kind of weather. You just need to use common sense as to when to drive and when to stay put.

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Old 11-11-2015, 12:43 PM   #41
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Let me clarify – the road looked bare and dry; it did not have the slick look of a wet road. Even when I got out of the car, the road looked dry – the ice had formed into tiny clear balls that made the road look dry - yet, it was so slippery that I actually slipped and fell.

This occurred on Highway 417 at the bridge over the railway lines at Casselman. I had plenty of winter driving experience (being a native Montrealer), but I had never before encountered this type of condition where the roads looked as bare and dry as it does in summer. I had driven that road many times (living in Ottawa and going to university in Montreal). It was late at night and I was tired, having driven to Montreal earlier that day to submit the research paper for my MBA.
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Old 11-11-2015, 06:28 PM   #42
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Thanks George. That really helps.
I apologize for the snarky reply. I read you incorrectly.
What I should have said was, being from the west coast myself, we have plenty of black ice especially in the hills and most often, it will be where the road is in the shadow of a rock face or outcrop that the sun hasn't got to yet. The road will look black but as you are coming off an area where the sun has warmed the road and going onto the cooler road surface. That is where the black slick ice is hiding.
Watch for the shadowy areas when it is right around freezing. Helps to have an outside temperature indicator that will tell you "ice".


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