Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-10-2006, 04:44 AM   #29
Rivet Monster
 
wahoonc's Avatar

 
1975 31' Sovereign
1980 31' Excella II
Sprung Leak , North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,174
Images: 40
My truck and tractors are all out from under warranty so bring on the bio We have soy based biodiesel availble to us in the next county over. The local farmers' coop is producing it. There is a second plant under construction up at Mount Olive, NC. So it is available just not universally so. I understand the concept and attractions of hydrogen, but that stuff is highly explosive and corrosive (at least in the forms I have seen) I have been working at a plant that uses hydrogen for some part of it's processes, when the "H" truck is on site all work and I mean all work stops, all hot work permits are suspended and you walk not drive to the break area....

Aaron
__________________

__________________
....so many Airstreams....so little time...
WBCCI #XXXX AIR #2495
Why are we in this basket...and where are we going
wahoonc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2006, 05:53 AM   #30
2 Rivet Member
 
1976 31' Sovereign
Youngsville , North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 56
Images: 8
Markexe,
We started out with a system similiar to the appleseed system. Our first processor was 200 gallons and we used farm tanks to do it. Depending on how fast you plan on producing, there are many options out there for tanks. We don't use hot water heaters at all, most of our heating is done by the sunlight and we only have to warm it up a little before producing. You need to check out what farms have for sale...it will save you a ton of money and you will get equipment that is very well made. Most farms have way more tanks and pumps than they really need.

Markdoane,
No problem on the info....it's really intersting if you're currently making bio. I also worry about people starting out with good intentions for properly taking care of their glycerol and it becomes too much of a pain to deal with. I can only hope people are not dumping it out back. I'm not a tree hugger (more of a cheap bastard who wants cheap fuel) but I still wouldn't want everyone just making their on little dumping spot.

2airishuman,
You're correct about needing to filter your biodiesel very well. If you don't, your injectors will let you know. I'll agree that petro fuel is the cheapest way of producing fuel from a virgin stock, but bio is cheaper if you can find a decent source of your WVO. Currently most WVO is used for make-up, soap, and animal feed (mainly chickens). The WVO has started to gain some value recently and (I THINK) may become a bidding war for Bio makers and chicken companies. This will basically run the WVO up to a price where it again makes it cheaper to buy petrodiesel.

The United States has tried to hoard our own oil (since the 70's shortage) and import as much as possible. While this does protect us and ensure that we'll have oil in the future, as the oil supply goes down (everywhere) the price will go up. It doesn't matter if there is enough for 400 years out there, there are people who are litterally banking on it and running the price up. Algae on the other hand, is definitely the future.

There isn't any conversion needed for biodiesel...only for WVO. The dealer can't tell what fuel has been previously run through your diesel, only what is in it right now. I usually don't run more than 50/50 blend of bio/petro due to the temp swings in NC.

There is no easy way to get methanol or ethanol.

Tarheel,
Manteo (like most other schools here in NC) don't have the newest buses. If they're older, then that may be why they had concerns with any rubber component that would contact the biodiesel.

Thanks,
Fish
__________________

__________________
Fish36991 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2006, 05:57 AM   #31
2 Rivet Member
 
1976 31' Sovereign
Youngsville , North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 56
Images: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by wahoonc
The local farmers' coop is producing it. There is a second plant under construction up at Mount Olive, NC.
Aaron,
If you pay the small fee and join the co-op, you can get even better deals on the biodiesel usually. Also, every co-op that I know keeps their bio tested to make sure it passes all standards. You should be able to run this with no problems. I would still consider blending it your self in your tank. At least a little petro diesel in the tank will make a big difference in the temp the bio will begin to sludge. Just my opinion though...

Fish
__________________
Fish36991 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2006, 07:49 AM   #32
Rivet Master
 
Chaplain Kent's Avatar
 
1994 30' Excella
Currently Looking...
Milwaukee , Wisconsin
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,934
I am a city dweller and will never have a bio still in my backyard. As of now bio-diesel is virtually impossible to find in this area. I tried it a couple times, when it was available, while travelling and liked the result, quieter, power, and odor. What concerns me about dino-diesel now is the fluctuating price. It has become just like gasoline and can raise .20 to .40 cents overnight. In fact it seems to keep pace with the gasoline increases which was not the case a while back. No longer can we budget a trip since fuel is our #1 expense.
Fish36991, if I travel by your place can I pull in for a fill up?
__________________
Chaplain Kent
2015 Coachman Freedom Express 19RBS, Chummy IV- Ford Excursion- 7.3 Turbo-diesel
Chaplain Kent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2006, 07:58 AM   #33
Rivet Master
 
Tarheel's Avatar
 
2001 34' Limited S/O
Moyock , North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,010
Images: 21
yes Mark thanks, since I have to log in on the Virginian Pilot to see the article I didn't think they would let me link it to the outside world, shows you what I know.
This appears to be a distillation process from what I see and read, is this correct? Looks more like grain alcohol than diesel fuel. With all the waste generated by peanuts, soy bean sand corn it would be a wonderful way to make fuel greener.
__________________
Keep the shiny side up.
WBCCI # 348
Past Region 3 President
Past President Tidewater Unit 111
Rick Bell in "Silverbell"
Tarheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2006, 08:32 AM   #34
2 Rivet Member
 
gyandell's Avatar
 
1972 31' Sovereign
FAYETTEVILLE , Arkansas
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 70
Images: 3
There is chemistry involved in making bio-fuels and it may cost a little more up front, but the real advantage is becoming more self-reliant. Collecting the oil and doing your test and making your own way. Plus a cleaner burning engine for the environment. Greasel.com eliminates the need to even process the oil into bio-fuels.We have RV's we have big trucks I believe we have a reponsabilty to look for better ways.
__________________
gyandell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2006, 08:38 AM   #35
Site Team
 
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,940
Images: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarheel
. . This appears to be a distillation process from what I see and read, is this correct? Looks more like grain alcohol than diesel fuel. With all the waste generated by peanuts, soy bean sand corn it would be a wonderful way to make fuel greener.
Rick,

No, I think this is the WVO (waste veg. oil) biodiesel process. I hope they are able to make it work.

Again, I have reservations about anyone who believes that the local MacDonalds is desparate to find a way to get rid of all that used frying oil.

In many cases that oil is already spoken for. If not, it soon will be. I think it is great that small operators are able to get up and running, and prove out the process, on free fryer oil and free labor. But those days will quickly come to an end.

The WVO process will always be a boutique operation. Maybe all the waste vegetable oil produced in the country will be enough to run all the school buses in the country. But what about all the farm tractors, and the RVs, and the Walmart trucks, and the locomotives?

I think the WVO process distacts the public from the HUGE problem facing us as we drain the world of dinofuel. A group of politicians and TV reporters can get on their soapboxes and preach to the choir about how much good we're doing by recycling the fryfat from MacDonalds. Give me a break!

It isn't gonna make a bit of difference. It's spitting in the ocean.

Now if you can make a viable, large scale process, like algae-oil (or whatever Fish is working on), then I'm interested. Or ethanol from switchgrass. Or true biodiesel from crops. We need to quit messing around with 5 gallon buckets and old water heaters.

Or show me an economic analysis of the WVO process that includes reasonable costs for raw materials, disposal of waste glycerin and ffa, and labor costs.
__________________
markdoane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2006, 11:33 AM   #36
2 Rivet Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 93
Right on! Markdoane

"It's spitting in the ocean"

It is always interesting to read about these boutique technologies, especially with a give-and-take discussion about implementing them in practice. But when the discussion goes airy-fairy about saving the planet, or that this will ethically justify driving around solo in 7800 lb. station wagons, it wears me out a bit.

By analogy, running a weekend's worth of electrical appliances from a pair of 50W-75W photovoltaics on the roof of an Airstream may be feasible, even if not strictly cost-competitive kwh for kwh with the perhaps unavailable commercial grid. But to extend that level of power use to urban or suburban family living is just ludicrous. Even if a commited zealot can limp through the year on just 300 wh/day, supplementing with a pig-waste digester or burning deadfall wood, it implies nothing for the scale of enterprise needed to support modern civilization.

That is not to say that all attempts to change our current bad habits are futile. But as you say, if this results in hobbyists thinking that their intentions provide them a pass on being realistic about the effects, good and bad, of their undertakings, thet is a very mistaken idea.

Missing from all the discussion so far is one other important dimension of environmental responsibility, carbon emmissions and greenhouse gas effects. Of course, petro-diesel turns into carbon dioxide and water vapor, like all fossil fuels. Also like most alternative fuel sources too. If we wish to restrict carbon emmissions to the lowest feasible level we must assess biodiesel with its own relative share of this problem too.

Someone wondered earlier where the necessary methanol for bioconversion comes from. The answer is coal, naptha and natural gas. http://www.techhistory.co.nz/ThinkBig/Methanol.htm In fact, I remember reading an article in Home Power magazine a few years back where the author stated that in his application the cost of methanol in drums worked out to about $.75/gal of produced biodiesel, which was just a few cents per gallon less than the wholesale pre-tax price of petrodiesel at that time. Only with free feedstock and labor and equipment accounted for at zero did his application make sense.

Of course since then there has been quite a run up in the base cost of petrodiesel, but I expect methanol, a fossil fuel product, has gone up some too.
__________________
bobechs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2006, 01:09 PM   #37
_
 
. , .
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,812
Quote:
Originally Posted by wahoonc
My truck and tractors are all out from under warranty so bring on the bio We have soy based biodiesel availble to us in the next county over. The local farmers' coop is producing it. I understand the concept and attractions of hydrogen, but that stuff is highly explosive and corrosive. Aaron
hi aaron and other sludge luggers....

it makes me proud when local farmers take an issue and solve it locally.....

when i get make to a rural homestead.....i'll join the coop too....

using veggie oil looks like an ideal measure for you.....wahoonc

the potential for hydrogen to explode is real but over stated....

and believeing this, might make city drivers more careful....
and instead of driving an edsel....
i can drive a hindenburg......

cigar anyone?

cheers
2air'
__________________
all of the true things that i am about to tell you are shameless lies. l.b.j.

we are here on earth to fart around. don't let anybody tell you any different. k.v.
2airishuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 09:25 PM   #38
2 Rivet Member
 
gyandell's Avatar
 
1972 31' Sovereign
FAYETTEVILLE , Arkansas
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 70
Images: 3
The question in this thread got off wack. The question was about making Bio from the appleseed processor or some other form. If you don't want to make it or use it don't. Spitting in the Ocean.Sure, but there is nothing airy-fairy about saving the planet. A tree hugger wears me out just as much. It was just about Homebrewing your own fuel. There are plenty of small time places,unlike the big chain places who probably have contracts with feed operations,that are more than willing to give up their WVO and the glycerine can be made into soap and you can recover the methanol. My point is it's just something that people want to do for themselves,just like any other hobby. When the dinofuel runs out there are plenty of great forums just like the airstream forum t teach those who want to on a small scale to help themselves.
The deisel was built originally to run on peanut oil to be harvested directly off of the farm
__________________
gyandell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 06:06 AM   #39
Moderator Emeritus
 
Pick's Avatar
 
1972 31' Sovereign
High Springs , Florida
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 2,310
Images: 36
Send a message via AIM to Pick
Quote:
The deisel was built originally to run on peanut oil to be harvested directly off of the farm
To bad peanut oil is so darned expensive. I saw some for $36 for a "not quite 5 gallon" jug of it. Peanut farmers around here complain about the price of peanuts being in the dumper.

Bio was used by our county government a few years ago. They quit using it when price and availability became an issue.
__________________
ARS WA8ZYT
2003 GMC 2500HD 4X4 D/A Ext. Cab
Propane Powered Honda EU2000i
Lots of Hot Sauce!
Air # 283
WBCCI 1350
Pick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 07:35 AM   #40
Rivet Master
 
Chaplain Kent's Avatar
 
1994 30' Excella
Currently Looking...
Milwaukee , Wisconsin
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,934
There is a good article in this month's "Popular Mechanics" on alternate fuels. They also discuss manufacturing and a nifty on board conversion process.
__________________
Chaplain Kent
2015 Coachman Freedom Express 19RBS, Chummy IV- Ford Excursion- 7.3 Turbo-diesel
Chaplain Kent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 08:30 AM   #41
RivetAddict
 
swebster's Avatar
 
1986 34.5' Airstream 345
Louisville , Kentucky
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,861
Images: 4
I've been reading this thread with interest. Perhaps I'm too much of an optimist but despite the naysayer’s I firmly believe it is those of us who tinker in garages who drive real business out of hobbies and change markets. Big Oil will always be big oil; perhaps someday they will become Big BioOil.

A year ago my brother-in-law sent me this link: http://www.greasecar.com/profile.cfm?profileID=52. It's inspired my curiosity about SVO ever since.

Chaplain - I'll pick up that PM issue today. I read a recent article in another major pub recently that talked about alternative fuels in detail. The concept was that there was no single solution, rather it would be a combination of energy sources; wind, hydro, nuclear, bio, solar - and yes petro) that would allow us to distribute demand and reduce the burden off of one single source (oil). Of course, the world will need to change to enable this, but it's good that we're all, at least, talking about it.
__________________
Steven Webster
1986 Airstream 345 Classic Motorhome
AIR 1760
swebster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 09:24 AM   #42
Rivet Master
 
Elgin , Texas
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 800
Images: 164
One thing to remember is that none of this is going to happen overnight. The world isn't going to run out of oil overnight, nor will a shift in thinking about alternate fuels. Think how a mere 20 years ago recycling was scarcely an afterthought, now it's a multi-billion dollar industry. Likewise with smoking in businesses and public places being the norm, now you have entire municipalities with non-smoking ordinances. My point is that changing of thought processes on a scale of such magnitude has to happen slowly by its very nature. We'll get to a point to where petroleum will be overtaken by other alternatives, technology advances virtually guarantee this, but it will never go away entirely. There will always be a market for it - much like we'll always have landfills and there will always be smokers. Even though the homebrewers may forever be relegated to their own niche, or may even become extinct, the key is that we're seeing the beginnings of a change in thought process, however small, that over time will effect change on a global scale. The precedents are already there. The fact that we've had flex fuel vehicles in production in this country for more than a decade, and that the large oil companies have started jumping on the biodiesel and ethanol bandwagons (far more than during the 70's era crunch,) would seem to support this. We're a long way from cheap, truly clean fuel; it's going to get way worse before it gets better, but we'll get there in time. Hopefully before 1/4 of the plant and animal species are wiped out, as they're predicting by 2050.
__________________

__________________

bake315 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fuel Consumption: (curious) Drew Tow Vehicles 15 12-26-2002 07:28 PM
cat. heater's fuel supply-Inside?? pebblepoint Furnaces, Heaters, Fireplaces & Air Conditioning 4 12-15-2002 05:02 PM
Kohler Fuel shutoff problems rdm Mechanics Corner - Engines, Transmission & More... 5 11-12-2002 08:11 PM
Advice please - Travels, Flags, Fuel and Caravans NickSowter On The Road... 6 06-27-2002 11:04 AM
fuel pressure PeterH-Airstreamer Mechanics Corner - Engines, Transmission & More... 3 06-09-2002 09:40 PM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.