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Old 09-01-2005, 07:12 PM   #57
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This is from a board that I read a lot.
Quote:
For your old goats that remember the early 70's!
I was hauling farm machinery out of Oklahoma and had to go through Bartelsville every week, You know, where ALL the largest oil refineries are!
Well with the whole country dealing with a gas shortage, The oil companies had to lay off 1200 people because the tank were full of refined gas and they had no work for them to do untill the gas was sent out. The govt. put a hold on refined gas to raise the price. That's not rumor, that's a fact!!!!!!!
The gentalman that I am quoting is a very good guy. I trust what he says.
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Old 09-01-2005, 10:02 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by jcanavera
Anyone cancel plans this holiday weekend due to concerns about gas availability or prices?

Jack
Still planning our trip for the weekend. Topped off the Burb at $2.99.

Twin Cities range - $2.72 to $3.27
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Old 09-01-2005, 10:19 PM   #59
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I think this site is updated daily if you want to get an idea of gas prices US wide or just in your area.

http://flyingj.com/fuel/gasoline_CF.cfm?state=ALL

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Old 09-01-2005, 10:39 PM   #60
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The upcoming weekend has a lot to do with the price, I believe. Certainly the price will not drop before next week regardless of availability.
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Old 09-01-2005, 10:52 PM   #61
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this morning I went by a shell station there price was $2.85 a gallon that was about 10:30. I couldn't at that time had a meeting to get to. when I went by it at about 1:00pm today they jacked the price up to $3.59. passed on that and found a place at $2.96 and filled up when I went in to pay the attendent told me that the tanker was due with in the hour and his prices were going up.
I went out to the Grand Cayon in late July I drove 5100 miles used 460 gallons of gas and the highest I paid was $3.19 a gallon at the south rim every where else was about $2.58 a gallon on averge. If I were to go now I would cancel the trip. I can't see many more trips if prices keep going up. I will just have to camp in the drive way.
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:13 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uwe
The rising prices are more driven by demand than crude prices. There are simply not enough refineries operating, and now there's 8 of them shut down temporarily due to the Hurricane ( what's the b.t..es name again?)
4 of them were gasoline refineries.
The release of crude reserves are somewhat irrelevant to gas prices....
A couple years ago, when gas prices skyrocketed in CA, we were told it was because our gas comes from a select few refineries that make gas only for CA and AZ, so when they were closed unexpectedly for 'maintenance', we were told that the gas available elsewhere would not meet CA emissions, so they would not sell it in CA. Flash forward to this week:
If they were telling the truth then, then CA and AZ shouldn't be affected at all by the refineries shut down by Katrina because our gas doesn't come from there. And yet, gas prices continue to and are once again rising faster here than anywhere else in the US.

Oh no, no gouging by the oil companies going on here. Already their profits are up 300% from a few years ago. Yet the government fully supports and encourages this. So define gouging, Uncle Sam, because I thought that was what that was.
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:25 PM   #63
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Gas Prices

Don't forget that during the previous adminstration, 2 refineries in Casper WY were shut down and sold to China because they didn't meet EPA standards. Do you suppose that "the tree huggers" might have something to do with the storage. I'm guessing this is exactly what they want. They want everyone to go back to the horse and buggy days.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mtpalms
A couple years ago, when gas prices skyrocketed in CA, we were told it was because our gas comes from a select few refineries that make gas only for CA and AZ, so when they were closed unexpectedly for 'maintenance', we were told that the gas available elsewhere would not meet CA emissions, so they would not sell it in CA. Flash forward to this week:
If they were telling the truth then, then CA and AZ shouldn't be affected at all by the refineries shut down by Katrina because our gas doesn't come from there. And yet, gas prices continue to and are once again rising faster here than anywhere else in the US.

Oh no, no gouging by the oil companies going on here. Already their profits are up 300% from a few years ago. Yet the government fully supports and encourages this. So define gouging, Uncle Sam, because I thought that was what that was.
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:06 AM   #64
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i bought propane yesterday for $149.9 other places had it for $2.89
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Old 09-02-2005, 01:59 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pick
Just for grins, I called a few propane distributors yesterday and asked for the per gallon price, to fill an RV tank. Got prices ranging from $2.20 to $3.40 a gallon in the Gainesville area. Flying J is still under $2 in just about all their locations.
We put on sixty pounds of LP yesterday. Not sure how that converts to gallons. Bought at a local co-op, it cost us $45! How much does a gallon of LP weigh anyway? Seemed reasonable to me but then I haven't really paid enough attention to LP prices....

Elizabeth in Iowa
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Old 09-02-2005, 07:03 AM   #66
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My Dad owned a Mobil station in the late 60s and 70s. I remember the gas crisis back then, I was pumping gas. We would go in at 6 am and the line was already stretched down the street. He had the first self service station in the North east, and no one could figure out how to pump the stuff. They'd sit in the car waiting for someone to come out, and that would slow it down even more.
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Old 09-02-2005, 09:23 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmsteader
Don't forget that during the previous adminstration, 2 refineries in Casper WY were shut down and sold to China because they didn't meet EPA standards. Do you suppose that "the tree huggers" might have something to do with the storage. I'm guessing this is exactly what they want. They want everyone to go back to the horse and buggy days.
You are not permitted to have "farm" animals inside the city limits. I already thought about buying a horse.
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Old 09-02-2005, 10:19 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtpalms
A couple years ago, when gas prices skyrocketed in CA, we were told it was because our gas comes from a select few refineries that make gas only for CA and AZ,
Interesting point. We were told the same thing. It used to be we could get fuel from refineries from all over the country. No longer since the govt. has mandated different standards for different cities. Our refining comes locally so the issue of refining capacity being cut in the Gulf shouldn't affect us either.

It just is another reason to raise the price. Let's watch the next round of oil company profit reporting when they get released.

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Old 09-02-2005, 11:39 AM   #69
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Here is a story from USA Today

Have gas prices gone crazy? Will we run out?

By James R. Healey and Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY
Even before Hurricane Katrina screamed ashore Monday after ravaging the country's petroleum operations in the Gulf of Mexico, seven of 10 Americans considered high gasoline prices a hardship.
A BP station in Atlanta has been out of gas since Tuesday.By Todd Bennett, Getty Images

Now, shortages caused by Katrina have more than doubled last week's gas prices in some places. That's provoked howls of suspicion as motorists for the first time in decades are waiting in line for gas, not sure they'll get any nor what they'll pay for it when it's their turn at the pumps. (Story: Gas shock echoes across USA)

The Explorer Pipeline

Transporting 72 kinds of gasoline, diesel and jet fuel from the Gulf Coast to the Midwest, the Explorer Pipeline remains shut down because of a power failure.
Length: 1,400 miles
Daily delivery: Petroleum products move at a rate of four miles per hour, or 15,000 gallons a minute, to more than 60 shippers in 16 states.
Owner: Jointly owned by subsidiaries of Chevron, Citgo, ConocoPhillips, Marathon, Sun, Texaco and Shell.
Speed: One barrel of petroleum product going to Chicago from the Gulf Coast takes 11 days.

The Plantation Pipe Line

It can transport one gallon of its petroleum products, including gasoline, jet fuel, diesel and heating oil, more than 1,000 miles for less than two cents. After briefly shutting down, the company announced Wednesday that it has returned to partial service and is at about 25% of normal operating capacity.
Length: 3,100 miles
Daily delivery: 20 million gallons of petroleum products to 130 shipper terminals in eight Southeastern states.
Owner: Kinder Morgan Energy Partners, 51%;
ExxonMobil, 49%
Speed: One batch going to Washington National Airport
from Baton Rouge takes 20 days on average.

The Capline Pipeline

The Capline crude oil pipeline, which had been shut down on Sunday ahead of the hurricane, has returned to service but at a reduced rate. Its owner, Shell, said in a statement on its Web site that the pipeline was not damaged, but that a power outage caused it to be inoperable for several days.
Length: 667 miles
Daily delivery: Up to 1.2 million barrels of crude oil
from the Gulf of Mexico and foreign countries to midcontinent states
Owner: Royal Dutch Shell
Speed: A batch of crude oil going 650 miles to Patoka,
Ill., from St. James, La., takes five days on average.

The Colonial Pipeline

The Colonial Pipeline restarted its pipeline activity Wednesday after briefly shutting down. It began operating at 25% to 35% of its normal capacity. It connects to shipper terminals in 12 states and the District of Columbia.
Length: 5,500 miles
Daily delivery: 100 million gallons of petroleum products throughout the Southeastern and Eastern USA
Owner: Koch, 28%; Hutts, 23%; Citgo, 16%; Shell Pipeline, 16%
Speed: Moving about three to five miles an hour, a batch of petroleum to New York Harbor from Houston takes 18.5 days on average.



In a USA TODAY/Gallup/CNN poll taken Sunday through Tuesday as Katrina was slamming into Louisiana and Mississippi but before the extent of the damage was known 69% of Americans said gas prices were a hardship. That's up from 59% in May, and the most by far since the question first was asked in February 2000.

The nationwide average price for regular unleaded was about $2.60 a gallon at the time of the poll, which has a margin of error of 3 percentage points. Now the average is $2.68, but prices are more than twice that where gas is scarce or merchants are brazen.

As a result, fuel budgets are running dry and motorists are protesting what seems to many of them like shameless profiteering.

Here are the questions being asked most often, most angrily:

Q: Aren't gas stations gouging or price fixing; raising prices just because they can?

A: Sometimes, yes, retailers are exploiting the situation.

But often stations are not gouging. They are raising prices because they paid more for gas the last time the delivery truck filled their underground tanks, or they are trying to charge enough to cover the higher prices they will pay the next time the delivery truck shows up, usually within a few days.

Tanks are refilled once a week at a typical midsize station, several times a week at high-volume discount stations.

Thus it's unlikely a station is charging today's fear-induced prices for gasoline the station bought a month ago for half today's price.

Price fixing is different from gouging. It's when competitors get together and decide how much to charge. If the manager of the Chevron station has coffee with the manager of the Mobil station across the street and they talk about how much to charge, that would be price fixing. Same if two or more big oil companies did that, or two or more petroleum distributors.

If a station is simply adding 50 cents a gallon to cover its expected higher costs, or purely to make a bigger profit at a time when prices elsewhere are going up about the same, then that's just hardball business.

Q: Will we run out?

A: Yes. Some stations already have. There's enough gasoline; it just isn't always in the right places. Shortages are expected to be isolated and short-lived.

The result of Katrina's damage is a loss of about 1 million barrels of gasoline a day, or about 10% of U.S. gasoline consumption, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration.

EIA says: "The distribution of gasoline, particularly in the Gulf Coast, Midwest and East Coast regions of the country, has been significantly affected."

EIA also says that storage terminals low on gas before Katrina "could run out of supply before the next delivery arrives." But it says it doesn't track inventories at individual storage terminals, so it can't predict where shortages will occur and how long they'll last.

Until energy companies can accurately survey the damage to their gulf operations, it's impossible to say when supplies will return to normal.

Q: How can a hurricane in the gulf affect prices and availability elsewhere?

A: Because so much gasoline comes from the gulf. That's where most imported gas is unloaded. It's where many U.S. refineries turn crude oil into gasoline. And it's where key pipelines get the gas they supply to the rest of the USA.

Reports from the U.S. Department of Energy and from energy consultants Thursday showed that gulf pipelines supplying Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, Kentucky and eastern states are shipping less-than-normal amounts, or are out of commission, because of Katrina.

When gas gets short in one region, prices go up in that area. Gasoline suppliers start diverting gas to the high-price area from other regions to make bigger profits. That leaves those other regions short of gas, driving up prices there even though they are not directly affected by Katrina.

Q: Why isn't the government helping?

A: It is, or is trying to.

The Department of Energy is releasing oil from the U.S. emergency horde, called the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, to make sure there's no shortage of oil to turn into gasoline. But that's cold comfort because so many refineries are in the gulf and have been shut by the hurricane.

The Environmental Protection Agency loosened clean-air rules. That allows gas-short areas to get gasoline from other states and regions even if that gas wouldn't normally meet anti-pollution standards in the areas that need gas.

The USA is a crazy quilt of gas regulations, and normally a highly polluted area has to sell special gas to combat that pollution, instead of using ordinary gasoline from a supplier in a nearby state or region. The EPA relaxation means gas from anywhere can go to stations anywhere, temporarily.

Q: Is there any relief in sight?

A: Yes, and it's partly because of the high prices that are infuriating motorists.

European gasoline sellers have booked 20 ships an extraordinary number to carry gas to the USA and take advantage of the high prices.

"If prices get high enough, you can afford to ship product from great distances. Capitalism is a great way to address supply and demand," says Paul Weissgarber, head of North American energy practice for consultant A.T. Kearney.

The big Euro shipments won't arrive until October, however.

By then, U.S. refineries will have switched to making cheaper, easier-to-produce, winter-blend gasoline. And driving usually falls off dramatically after the Labor Day weekend.

Energy companies have been making such big profits from high prices even before Katrina's damage that they are likely to rush back into operation as fast as possible.

Petroleum traders are betting the crisis won't last too long. They have bid up the wholesale price of gasoline for delivery this month and next to roughly $2.50 a gallon more than the retail price you paid at the pump just three weeks ago but wholesale prices for gasoline to be delivered in the winter months have been holding at less than $2.
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Old 09-02-2005, 11:56 AM   #70
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That was some great info Jack....thanks!
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