2017 f150 vs 250 towing vehicle

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by Mgieselman

I think that sticker is probably right if it's a loaded F-250, based off of this:

https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas...eries_v1-0.pdf

a base F-250 4x4 Diesel short bed has a payload capacity of 2,660. Add all the options and I could totally believe it goes down to 2,100. A RAM 2500 Limited has a max payload of 2,170 and max towing of 16,900.

By the number they are the the same more or less in the towing/payload department.

A F-150 Platinum 3.5L EcoBoost has a 2,060 max payload and 10,700 towing. Kind of hard to make the case for the F-250 when towing an Airstream, IMHO.

I have no idea where you get your Ford specs. A 2017 F-250 Diesel, 4x4 , Crew Cab, Short Box has a payload capacity of 3,460 lbs.
The payload loss is mostly due to the Crew Cab and 4x4 configuration. Luxury upgrades amount to no more than a 200 lbs over the stock xlt. All 2017 F-250 come with the aluminum body. The most dismal payload numbers are the RAM numbers. As I noted previously, I test drove a 2017 RAM 2500 Laramie Diesel and the payload was only 1,990 lbs with an MSRP within $ 100.00 of the F-250 Lariat.

IMHO the important difference between the F-150 and the F-250 is the increased payload capacity providing more heft overall. Our 30' International with the the 1,000 lbs tongue weight noticeably pushes our F-150 around road bends and curves as a result and controlling it becomes tiring on long extended trips. That is the main reason for us to upgrade. I don't believe that is an issue with the shorter trailers however.

[SCOTTinNJ]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

I have no idea where you get your Ford specs. A 2017 F-250 Diesel, 4x4 , Crew Cab, Short Box has a payload capacity of 3,460 lbs.
The payload loss is mostly due to the Crew Cab and 4x4 configuration. Luxury upgrades amount to no more than a 200 lbs over the stock xlt.

Look at page 3 of the link Mgieselman posted. 3,450 is for the 6.2L engine. The diesel is a full 600 lbs less at 2660 lbs.

And if you think the Lariat is 200 lbs different than the XLT you are kidding yourself. The leather seats might be 200 lbs. I've heard that the sunroof is 400 lbs.

2660 lbs minus 200 for seats and 400 for a roof gets you around 2000 lbs which is what is reported for F-250 diesels.

Time will tell. Let's see when you get your truck. As I said previously, don't start buying accessories. I think your dealer will be buying it back.

[DPRoberts]

I've been looking at all the manufacturers' websites for payload information, and I don't think any of them can be trusted to provide "real world" payload figures for actual real world trucks.

Someone in another thread on this topic posted that a Ford dealer in Ontario, Canada - www.hannafords.ca - publishes photos of the payload sticker for each model. If you check out those photos you'll see the real world impact of all the options adding up.

They're one of the few dealers I've seen that have had an F-150 with the "HD Payload" package in stock. I think it requires an extended cab and the longer bed, an the SLT trim level, but it does give you over 2000 lbs of payload.

Other than that, I've never seen one of their trucks in stock that tops out over about 1800 lbs or so. After a quick look tonight, I found payloads for several different F-150 models as follows:

King Ranch S-Crew 4x4 w/ 3.5 L Ecoboost: 1573 lbs
Platinum S-Crew 4x4 w/ 5.0L V8: 1614 lbs
Lariat S-Crew 4x4 w/ 3.5 L Ecoboost: 1633 lbs
SLT S-Crew 4x4 w/ 5.0 L V8: 1778 lbs

So in general, a well-equipped F-150 is going to top out at about 1600 lbs. And as the yellow sticker says, "The combined weight of occupants and cargo should never exceed X lbs," which would indicate that the driver is included. Yes, you can get more payload dropping down to lower trim levels, smaller cabs, no 4WD, etc., so those larger payloads are out there, but they just don't seem to exist in the higher-end models. All those features really add a ton of weight.

Considering that real world tongue weights for the larger Airstreams often exceed 1000 lbs or more, it seems like two people in an F-150 towing a large Airstream are going to be at max payload before any cargo at all is figured in.

[mixedpuppy]

I was considering an upgrade so I got a door sticker pic from a dealer in the Okanagon in BC for a 2016 f150 lariat 4x4 off-road, pretty loaded including the dual sized moonroof. This was after extensive searching on the ford.ca website then guessing what dealer it might be, and nicely convincing them to send me the pic.

2364lbs payload.

You have to be very specific with f150s, it has to be the supercrew 6.5' bed with both HD Payload and Max Tow (available in XL/XLT/Lariat) and 3.5 ecoboost engine. You can only get the base equipment group (500a on Lariat) with HD Payload. Without the specific build, you'll be back down in the 1600lb range.

[mixedpuppy]

Originally Posted by mixedpuppy

This was after extensive searching on the ford.ca website then guessing what dealer it might be, and nicely convincing them to send me the pic.

Just a note on that. Searching the ford inventory site, I changed the postal code/zip code in the url to various regions until I found inventory for what I wanted. Then I googled the VIN and found the dealer. Ford does not make it easy to find stock, let alone what dealer the stock is at. And the dealers don't want to deal with each other.

[paiceman]

We run a 2015 F350 6.7 Diesel Crew Cab 6'6" Bed. Love it. We did tow a 30" FC cross country twice, it's a snap. Now we tow a 2017 30' Classic, a little heavier overall, tongue weight actually feels less than the FC, but she tows like a dream. More power than I actually need, great down hill engine brake.

If we every get rid of the F350, we are going to go to an F350 Dual Rear Wheel, simply because I've never owned one before.

Bud

[khollister]

Originally Posted by SCOTTinNJ

Look at page 3 of the link Mgieselman posted. 3,450 is for the 6.2L engine. The diesel is a full 600 lbs less at 2660 lbs.

And if you think the Lariat is 200 lbs different than the XLT you are kidding yourself. The leather seats might be 200 lbs. I've heard that the sunroof is 400 lbs.

2660 lbs minus 200 for seats and 400 for a roof gets you around 2000 lbs which is what is reported for F-250 diesels.

Time will tell. Let's see when you get your truck. As I said previously, don't start buying accessories. I think your dealer will be buying it back.

Actually that is almost an 800 lb difference for the diesel.

What matters legally is axle loading compared to the GAWR's, not GVWR. I think you will find that any modern 3/4 ton truck has a real-world payload capacity far in excess of the published payload number assuming reasonable weight distribution (to restore front axle weight) and not hanging 1000 lbs on the front via snowplows, brushers, winches, bike racks, etc.

A couple examples that I happen to have numbers for:

2017 Ford Powerstroke CC 4x4 - front GAWR 5200, rear GAWR 6350
2016 Ram CTD CC 4x4 - front GAWR 6000, rear GAWR 6500

The Ford potentially has 1500 lbs of extra payload depending on axle loading, the Ram 2500 lbs. I imagine the GMC numbers are similar. Of course if you drop a bunch of weight over or aft of the rear axle with no weight distribution, you are going to hit the rear GAWR a lot faster. I still believe the published payload numbers for most 250/2500 diesels are low, even in that scenario.

The payload ratings for 1/2 and 1 ton trucks are closer to real world capacities since their GVWR's aren't usually artificially low to create a registration/tax loophole.

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by SCOTTinNJ

Look at page 3 of the link Mgieselman posted. 3,450 is for the 6.2L engine. The diesel is a full 600 lbs less at 2660 lbs.

And if you think the Lariat is 200 lbs different than the XLT you are kidding yourself. The leather seats might be 200 lbs. I've heard that the sunroof is 400 lbs.

2660 lbs minus 200 for seats and 400 for a roof gets you around 2000 lbs which is what is reported for F-250 diesels.

Time will tell. Let's see when you get your truck. As I said previously, don't start buying accessories. I think your dealer will be buying it back.

I believe those pictures are of a 2016 F-250 Diesel. There isn't a 2017 F-250 in any configuration that comes with a payload under 3,000 LBS.
400 LBS for sunroof ? You must be kidding. My 2012 F-150 platinum and my sons 2012 F-150 Lariat had payload numbers within 150 LBS within one another. Both had crew cabs and were 4 x 4. Crew cab, 4 x 4 and Heavy duty tow configurations are the biggest weight robbers.

[rostam]

Originally Posted by khollister

Actually that is almost an 800 lb difference for the diesel.

What matters legally is axle loading compared to the GAWR's, not GVWR. I think you will find that any modern 3/4 ton truck has a real-world payload capacity far in excess of the published payload number assuming reasonable weight distribution (to restore front axle weight) and not hanging 1000 lbs on the front via snowplows, brushers, winches, bike racks, etc.

A couple examples that I happen to have numbers for:

2017 Ford Powerstroke CC 4x4 - front GAWR 5200, rear GAWR 6350
2016 Ram CTD CC 4x4 - front GAWR 6000, rear GAWR 6500

The Ford potentially has 1500 lbs of extra payload depending on axle loading, the Ram 2500 lbs. I imagine the GMC numbers are similar. Of course if you drop a bunch of weight over or aft of the rear axle with no weight distribution, you are going to hit the rear GAWR a lot faster. I still believe the published payload numbers for most 250/2500 diesels are low, even in that scenario.

The payload ratings for 1/2 and 1 ton trucks are closer to real world capacities since their GVWR's aren't usually artificially low to create a registration/tax loophole.

So, you think the GVWR of 2500 series is intentionally kept low for taxing purposes? Just curious, is that your opinion or do you have a source? Also, I checked the 3500 series specs and the GVWR is still less than the sum of axle ratings. So, this is not just a 2500 issue, and is applicable to 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton, and 1 ton trucks (and SUVs, sedans as well).

[Silverflames]

F250 owners, any problems with the new diesel DEF systems?

[SailorSam205]

[QUOTE=SCOTTinNJ;1858597]
2660 lbs minus 200 for seats and 400 for a roof gets you around 2000 lbs which is what is reported for F-250 diesels.
/QUOTE]

Not sure where you are getting weight estimates. 400 lbs for a moon roof???

For 2016 Super Duty:
Moon roof, Power Slide (20/36) (front axle weight / total weight)
There is a 0 delta on weight for leather vs standard seats.

This site has links to lots of useful info for multiple model years. I don't see optional equipment weights for 2017 yet. I suspect you can use the numbers from 2016 to get good estimates, see the 2016 Truck Payload Workbook,


https://www.fleet.ford.com/TRUCKBBAS.../techspec.html

[SCOTTinNJ]

[QUOTE=SailorSam205;1858897]

Originally Posted by SCOTTinNJ

2660 lbs minus 200 for seats and 400 for a roof gets you around 2000 lbs which is what is reported for F-250 diesels.
/QUOTE]

Not sure where you are getting weight estimates. 400 lbs for a moon roof???

For 2016 Super Duty:
Moon roof, Power Slide (20/36) (front axle weight / total weight)
There is a 0 delta on weight for leather vs standard seats.

This site has links to lots of useful info for multiple model years. I don't see optional equipment weights for 2017 yet. I suspect you can use the numbers from 2016 to get good estimates, see the 2016 Truck Payload Workbook,


https://www.fleet.ford.com/TRUCKBBAS.../techspec.html

I had read that somewhere and it's obviously wrong. Here are the actual option numbers.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas...load_SB_v5.pdf

Still doesn't change the fact that this is an actual sticker from a 2017 Lariat as posted by THEPILL.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ml#post1850357

Based on the GAWR front and rear, it does look like that is artificially low.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ml#post1850341

[dkottum]

When trailering, use axle ratings (GAWR) and weights from a CAT Scale for safety. Payload is a variable (using fuel among other things changes it) number derived from GVWR and who knows where that arbitrary number comes from, engineers, marketing, tax accountants, maybe all of them.

Weighing the loaded combo on a CAT Scale will tell you if an axle is overloaded, and it may well be, or the front axle too light for good braking and handling, but the truck may still be under GVWR.

This is not too quarrel with someone who wants to follow all the numbers, or even less than the numbers, just to understand there's more to safe trailering weights than adding up for payload (GVWR). And often this addition is unaware of the benefits of a good and properly set up weight distribution hitch.

Sorry, I have no internet source for this, just my experience at the CAT Scales and towing our Airstream, as well as overloading the rear axle of our truck without the Airstream and feeling how unstable that was.

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by SCOTTinNJ

Look at page 3 of the link Mgieselman posted. 3,450 is for the 6.2L engine. The diesel is a full 600 lbs less at 2660 lbs.

And if you think the Lariat is 200 lbs different than the XLT you are kidding yourself. The leather seats might be 200 lbs. I've heard that the sunroof is 400 lbs.

2660 lbs minus 200 for seats and 400 for a roof gets you around 2000 lbs which is what is reported for F-250 diesels.

Time will tell. Let's see when you get your truck. As I said previously, don't start buying accessories. I think your dealer will be buying it back.

I will be doing some investigating today. The dealer just got in an identical truck to what we ordered in black so I can take pictures of the door sticker.
There seems to be a disconnect between the Ford Site published specs, the build spec information attached here and the door stickers. I may have to eat some humble pie. (Won't be the first time nor the last I am sure)

[SCOTTinNJ]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

I will be doing some investigating today. The dealer just got in an identical truck to what we ordered in black so I can take pictures of the door sticker.
There seems to be a disconnect between the Ford Site published specs, the build spec information attached here and the door stickers. I may have to eat some humble pie. (Won't be the first time nor the last I am sure)

Looking forward to the results. I hope I'm wrong (wouldn't be the first or last time for me either!)

[TGK]

I've been considering selling a 1999 F250 SD SC 4x4 V8 manual with tow/camper pkg and also a 2010 Tacoma 4cyl daily driver. I've been researching whether I could consolidate functions into a 2017 F150 Ecoboost. I tow a 1971 23' Safari (max weight 5,200#) and, at times, carry an aluminum pop-up truck camper weighing in at 1,600 lbs when loaded up. The camper would not be on the truck when towing the trailer. I had a dealer e-mail me build sheets for a 2017 F150 4x4 XLT w/3.5L Ecoboost with the Heavy-Duty Payload and Max tow packages for both the Supercab w/8ft box and a Crew Cab with the 6.5ft box. GVWR for both configurations is 7,850 lbs.

I found this on the web;

"The Heavy-Duty Payload Package increases the truck's payload and towing capabilities with an eight-foot cargo box, upgraded springs, tires, and wheels, as well as a heavier duty leaf supension. The package is available for the regular cab or extended cab (SuperCab) models equipped with the 5.0-liter V-8 or 3.5-liter EcoBoost V-6.
The package increases the truck's GVWR to 7,600 pounds for the XL trim and 7,850 pounds for the XLT and Lariat trim models. The package is paired with the Max Trailer Tow Package on the EcoBoost and the Trailer Tow Package on the V-8. The Heavy-Duty Payload Package retails for $1,500.
The package increases payload to 3,300 pounds for the V-8 and 2,900 pounds for the EcoBoost. Without the package, the EcoBoost truck has a maximum payload of 2,230 pounds. Trailering capability for a SuperCab with the EcoBoost would increase to 11,800 pounds from 10,700, said Mike Levine, Ford's truck communications manager.
The upgrade is designed for commercial users in the construction, landscape, and automotive parts industries, Levine said.
The heavy payload package includes five LT245/70R17E BSW A/T tires for the XL; five LT275/65R18C OWL A/T tires for the XLT or Lariat; 17-inch silver steel heavy-duty wheels for the XL; 18-inch silver aluminum heavy-duty wheels for the XLT or Lariat; upgraded springs and auxiliary transmission oil cooler; and a 9.75-inch gear set with 3.73 electronic-locking slip axle.

[SCOTTinNJ]

That Canadian dealer has two 2017's on the site. Both the same.

XLT SuperCrew with 6.2L - 3142 lbs payload

http://www.hannafords.ca/used/Ford/2...cd000f4a0c.htm

The diesel is 790 lbs less right off the bat, so 2352 payload minus whatever options go in above the XLT trim.

For completeness, this is the sticker on the truck.

http://windowsticker.forddirect.com/...7c8c06628dd296

It does include snow plow package and 5th wheel hitch, among other items that probably add significant weight. So maybe a smartly chosen Lariat will be similar or even better.

[franklyfrank]

[QUOTE=SailorSam205;1858897]

Originally Posted by SCOTTinNJ

2660 lbs minus 200 for seats and 400 for a roof gets you around 2000 lbs which is what is reported for F-250 diesels.
/QUOTE]

Not sure where you are getting weight estimates. 400 lbs for a moon roof???

For 2016 Super Duty:
Moon roof, Power Slide (20/36) (front axle weight / total weight)
There is a 0 delta on weight for leather vs standard seats.

This site has links to lots of useful info for multiple model years. I don't see optional equipment weights for 2017 yet. I suspect you can use the numbers from 2016 to get good estimates, see the 2016 Truck Payload Workbook,


https://www.fleet.ford.com/TRUCKBBAS.../techspec.html

Thank you very much for posting this link.
It is awesome, it explains in great detail how Ford and I presume the others spec their vehicles. It basically clears up the discussion on this thread. What an education I received, and I have to admit that I have been wrong in my interpretation of the basic Ford Specs that you can find on line.
So I am eating my humble pie.
The disturbing fact is that the dealership sales staff has no clue. You would think a dealership would have at least on sales person trained to sell trucks.

I also have a better understanding of the difference between the F-150 and F-250. The issue isn't so much of power because surely the 6.7 diesel is somewhat of an overkill but as has been repeatedly stated the 1000 lbs tongue weight of a 30' Air stream doesn't leave much margin of safety on a F-150.
Air stream sales should be able to better advise buyers as well on this issue.

[SCOTTinNJ]

You nailed the problem. Most salespeople are uninformed at best. You have to educate yourself and they don't necessarily make that easy.

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by SCOTTinNJ

You nailed the problem. Most salespeople are uninformed at best. You have to educate yourself and they don't necessarily make that easy.

Yes!
What got my attention was how evasive the salesman got when I pressed him on the payload issue. He gave me the numbers Ford publishes on their open website which I knew.
All they need to do is add a column showing the Reserve Weight number for Factory and Owner add on equipment and indicate the potential NET Payload. Distilling all the information in the Build Spec Info makes me believe that the Payload number on he door stickers is conservative.