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2airishuman · 07-23-2006, 05:26 PM

hi carol, azstreamin, scottanlily and others.....

taken directly from the airstream owners manual...
page d5 for classics 2005

"warning: in is also important to periodically check on the tightness of lug nuts. aluminum and steel wheels should be torque to 95ft pounds. care should be taken at all times when handling an aluminum wheel because of the possible damage to its appearance."

later on the same page.......
"warning: when removing aluminum forged wheels from the spindle, it is very important to mark them to assure the wheel is placed in the same position on the drum when reinstalling. if the aluminum forged wheel is to be mounted on a different drum it is important to sand all loose corrosion fomr the mating surfaces."

the bold italics are mine edit....

i looked on line at the same manuals for 2003 and back....the wording then was '85lbs for aluminum wheels and 95lbs for steel wheels'
this info was basically the same in the classic, safari, bambi and int. manuals....

http://www.airstream.com/product_lin...intenance.html

why the change on the classics that all had alcoa wheels? who knows, prehaps different bolts or perhaps the disc brakes...or the bearing/grease recall?

carol if your trailer had the same wheels as mine i'd be fine with this info, but the 2007s have a different style alum wheel from a different vendor!

i don't have access to an 05 or later safari manual azstreamin but you should....

so carol and az' check your owners manual...section d, somewhere between page 4-11.

with so many cars, trucks, bikes and trailers...who can remember these numbers....
....so i looked in my 'flight plan book' and 95 is what i've got written down too...
not 85....95....95.....95....must remember this.....
good thing its written down....

doing a quick search there are many threads on lug nuts, torque-ing them and so on......
with numbers all over the place....

everyone needs to find there own wheel/bolt/hub specs........
don't rely on what is posted here!
with 50 years of wheels and lugs and bolts....
imagine how many combos we have!

this is the warning sticker on my unit....above the wheels...
i'm gonna write 95 on it tomorrow...

scottanlily...
interesting observation about the bolt color....
reading rich's blog not only did he recently add the disc brakes, but he writes about how well the trailer/nissan worked coming down that really steep grade in idaho...

you might want to fire him an email....with your thoughts...
and he might want to save the bolts and have them inspected.....
along with the running gear.....

save travels all......
2air'

wahoonc · 07-23-2006, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

~snip~ many dial-a-torque wrenches do operate both directions and internally ratchet 2 ways...some say not to use for loosening, mine doesn't make that distinction and has a lifetime warranty anyway...

2air'

2air' that is for those freakin' dodges that had the different thread lug nuts on the other side of the vehicle...I unfondly remember one too many rainy nights on the side of the road muttering "lefty loosey, righty tighty...but this is a D*mn Dodge"

Aaron

jimmickle · 07-23-2006, 06:22 PM

If you want to tighten your lugs with an air wrench, get a "torque stick" of the proper rating. You just put it on the standard air wrench and tighten away. Harbour Freight has a set of 10 for less than $100 (from China of course). The good ones (made in USA) cost me $35 each about 10 years ago. They look like a socket and one piece extension. The length and diameter limit the torque.

In my opinion, 85-95-105 lb ft doesn't really make any difference. What you want to avoid 25 on one and 300 on another, which I have seen from the gorillas at the average chain tire store.

Chuck · 07-23-2006, 07:13 PM

hmmm....#4 in 2air's attached pic is telling.

Silvertwinkie · 07-23-2006, 07:23 PM

Like John, I too carry a torque wrench. I test the lugs before every trip to and from home. It's cheap insurance IMHO.

I also check the truck as well FWIW.

Overkill? Maybe, but in 13 years of towing, I've not run into any problems similar to what Rich has seen....or at least so far.

2airishuman · 07-23-2006, 07:55 PM

hi aaron, jim, chuck and 'twinkie......

that's funny aaron,
i didn't know the dodges were so close in design
to my bicycles, which still attach the pedals that way!

i defer to your years as a motorhead jim,
but always suspected this was true....especially with 6-8 nuts....
with only 4 it might matter more.

chuck that's why i posted the pic....
i'd forgotten #4 on the list, and since i'll be in the rockies soon,
i'll now remember this too...

hi silvertwinkie!
where've you been.....first post i've seen in a while?
i was thinking about you last week.
hope you've been away for fun not something else...

if in rich's situation
i'd likely be pulling all the wheels
and knocking out a few bolts for inspection...

cheers
2air'

Safari Tim · 07-23-2006, 10:38 PM

He has probably had the aluminum wheels since he started his trip almost a year ago. I'm sure he has is bearing packed a few times therefore had the wheels off and on.

Just last month he had his brakes upgraded to disc. Could the disc brake upgrade along with record heat across the country, cause the studs to become brittle from being overheated?

He did say one snapped just from torquing it down.

scottanlily · 07-23-2006, 10:58 PM

Hello 2air,

I see on the 4th line of the chart it talks of rechecking torque after excessive
braking ,which is what was said was done ,I suspect excessive heating of the
rotor/hub itself ,one guy in the blog said "your rotors are red hot" he may
have been right .I will see if I can make a contact with Rich if possible .
those studs never should have that heated color ,and when bluish brown
like they are ,possible those disc brakes are working very hard ,someway
or another ,did not catch what type of nissan for tv either .we'll have to see
what happens on this one .I routinely service GM light trucks and most all
use the factory aluminum wheels of many years 96 to present ,the lug nuts
come up to torque value very quickly after hand snugging the nuts .So you
having a good torque wrench is a must.If you lean on the nut too much
it will break ,but right then , loose wheels do cause the studs to break off fast .Ive torqued many aluminum wheels all the time none have came off .
This subject here today needs some investigation for sure ,as wheels exiting
the trailer cannot be allowed to become a reality as it has.

Scott

ROBERTSUNRUS · 07-23-2006, 11:47 PM

Hi, I see too much difference of opinion on this subject. In posts #2, #7, and #18 [#7 being mine]we seem to have read the same thing; 90 lbs on steel wheels and 120 lbs on alloy wheels. Although I feel confident that I read my manual correctly, I think we all need to take another look! Just to be safe. As for 110 lbs seeming quite high, yes it is, but my Navigator and newer F-150s are torqued at 150 lbs.

Bob

scottanlily · 07-24-2006, 12:52 AM

hello ROBERTSUNRUS,

You are so right ,there needs to be a common rating of torque value .To
add somthing more ,the aluminum wheel will not deflect as in squish or
movement of the lug nut seat in the wheel ,steel wheels on the other hand will have some lug nut seat deflection as the steel will pull in as the nut is torqued down ,my point on the GM wheel coming up to torque value quickly.
The value of maximum nut torque will be different on the steel versus the
aluminum wheel .The aluminum wheel being of most importance as they
are more suspect to lug loosening ,but they should not be .And if the
aluminum wheels are newly installed ,mandatory recheck and retorque of
the lug nuts is crucial after a few miles of operation .Any good tire and
wheel shop will tell the customer exactly that .

Scott

dwightdi · 07-24-2006, 06:47 AM

The discoloring of the failed studs is very disturbing.
In a former life at GM and Outboard Marine Corportation (as the materials engineer), I was involved in conducting failure analysis of a fair number of bolts and studs in product liability cases. Discoloration is an indicator of high temperature. Anything above 600 F can reduce the strength of the studs. Many US manufacturers are currently buying their studs and bolts from off- shore. In the reccent past, some have checked out not to be up to standard. From the pictures, I think the failed studs are part of the new disk brake assemblies. The disk manufacturer may not have the equipment or test their incoming parts. Now days, with trusted supplier lists and the drive to down the cost of incoming inspection. this is pretty common. (Think about Airstream last year and all those axles that came in improperly lubricated and Airstream simply assembled them into trailers and sent them out to fail.) If this were a class action suite or a personal injury suite, I am sure the lawyers would have a qualified metalurgical laboratory analyze the remaining parts to determine just why these studs failed. It is a pretty easy thing to do, if you have the proper equipment. If I were he, I would replace all the studs on the trailer immediately with certified Automotive grade studs (not obtained from the disk brake supplier) and worry about who is at fault later.

**jcanavera** · 07-24-2006, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottanlily

I see on the 4th line of the chart it talks of rechecking torque after excessive
braking ,which is what was said was done ,I suspect excessive heating of the
rotor/hub itself ,one guy in the blog said "your rotors are red hot" he may
have been right .I will see if I can make a contact with Rich if possible .
those studs never should have that heated color ,and when bluish brown
like they are ,possible those disc brakes are working very hard ,someway
or another ,did not catch what type of nissan for tv either ..

Scott

Scott, this is really an interesting issue that you brought forth. What kind of temperatures are we talking about? In excess of 600 degrees? If so, then what about all the other components in contact with these brakes? Would there be other evidence within the wheel that would support this possibility? It's interesting that disc brakes are added for better reliability without heat fading, only to find out from a brake technique issue that you can overheat a disc brake and cause another problem. Wow this is sobering.

Jack

myoung · 07-24-2006, 10:01 AM

Reading all this commentary makes me wonder whether it might be worthwhile to start all over torquing the wheels of our trailer. I thought the recommended torque was merely a suggested minimum, something like the suggested speed limit on highways--a suggestion rather than a rule as Newt Gingrich so famously suggested when comparing Americans with Germans, for example.

We have alloy wheels like most newer Airstreams and I am sure that the torque on the lugnuts exceeds the amount recommended in the owner's manual, which I believe is 110 foot-pounds (I don't have the manual handy right now).

So, what is the learned opinion on the wisdom of backing off all the lugnuts and retightening to the recommended amount?

Also, why should the torque be so critical on trailer wheels when it doesn't seem to be an issue on automobiles. I've had alloy wheels on all our cars, vans, and SUVs since the early 70's and have never had a failure nor have I ever heard of anyone else having a failure. I'm probably like most other people in that I just leave the lugnuts alone figuring that the tire shop did the right job manually or with their pneumatic wrench. I cannot recall ever having the torque checked either.

jimmickle · 07-24-2006, 10:29 AM

Last fall I had the tires replaced on my Cadillac Catera. I was assured by the manager of the tire store (Discount Tire) that they used torque sticks and that the lug bolts would be properly torqued. After we got to Florida, I began to develop brake pulsatation. Thinking that they many not have torqued the bolts properly, I tried to loosen them and found that they were extremely tight, probably over 300 lb ft. Broke an inexpensive breaker bar before we were able to get them all loose! Had to borrow a stronger breaker bar with an added pipe to get them loose! Apparently the tire store just ran them in with the air wrench, without using a torque stick, resulting in severe overtorque. Spec is 85 lb ft on chrome plated aluminum wheels.

In almost 40 years of trailering, I have never had a wheel bolt or nut loosen. I really think that the vibration when tightening with an air wrench and torque stick sets the fasteners better without overtorqueing.

overlander63 · 07-24-2006, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcanavera

Would there be other evidence within the wheel that would support this possibility? It's interesting that disc brakes are added for better reliability without heat fading, only to find out from a brake technique issue that you can overheat a disc brake and cause another problem. Wow this is sobering.

Jack

USUALLY you can tell you have brake problems by looking at other inicators, such as the smell of hot brakes, discoloured rotors, melted rubber and plastic pieces, etc. This is not always the case, but there will have to be some indication of brake problems. The brakes have to get hot enough to discolor the rotor before the rotor gets hot enough to discolor the stud. Heat has to travel, it can't jump from part to part without something conducting it.

Silvertwinkie · 07-24-2006, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myoung

I thought the recommended torque was merely a suggested minimum,

So, what is the learned opinion on the wisdom of backing off all the lugnuts and retightening to the recommended amount?

Also, why should the torque be so critical on trailer wheels when it doesn't seem to be an issue on automobiles.

Glad to see you've seen the benefits of proper torque.

I think backing them off and re-torquing would be a good idea, but there may be the possibility that the rims or hubs if you torqued them on too tight regularly.

It is an issue with autos as well. Every manufac has torque settings for not only the lugs, but many locations all around the vehicle. You should always follow the suggested torque settings.

**jcanavera** · 07-24-2006, 02:39 PM

I'd really don't have a big torque wrench so I've always used the old "is it tight enough" method using my trusty lug cross wrench. I just go around putting muscle power to use, rather than the weight of my body.

Normally I might find a lug that just moves a tiny bit. I guess I might pony up and buy a big wrench to check this. I wonder what kind of torque I can apply using the lift on one side and push on the other side of the wrench, without putting body weight into it?

Jack

uwe · 07-24-2006, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcanavera

I'd really don't have a big torque wrench so I've always used the old "is it tight enough" method using my trusty lug cross wrench. I just go around putting muscle power to use, rather than the weight of my body.

Normally I might find a lug that just moves a tiny bit. I guess I might pony up and buy a big wrench to check this. I wonder what kind of torque I can apply using the lift on one side and push on the other side of the wrench, without putting body weight into it?

Jack

Well, if you got a foot of wrench handle, then your body weight on the handle ( let's assume 200lbs) would be 200ftlbs..
If you pull up on the other side, you just migh tbe overtorqueing the lugs? You'd have to pull awful hard, though.
The only problem with your method is that by the time you're at wheel #3, your muscles will have fatiqued somewhat, and therefore the lugs won't be as tight as the ones you started with. Hence, a torque wrench is always a better choice. Even if it's a cheap one, at least you're in teh ball park, and the lugs are evenly tightened, which in my opinion is more important than an absolute correct torque.

**jcanavera** · 07-24-2006, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uwe

Well, if you got a foot of wrench handle, then your body weight on the handle ( let's assume 200lbs) would be 200ftlbs..
If you pull up on the other side, you just migh tbe overtorqueing the lugs? You'd have to pull awful hard, though.
The only problem with your method is that by the time you're at wheel #3, your muscles will have fatiqued somewhat, and therefore the lugs won't be as tight as the ones you started with. Hence, a torque wrench is always a better choice. Even if it's a cheap one, at least you're in teh ball park, and the lugs are evenly tightened, which in my opinion is more important than an absolute correct torque.

I don't put my body weight on the handle but I hear what your saying. I agree with the torque wrench. I guess I've been doing it this way for so long without a problem, you tend to get complacent regarding your technique. It's only after something like this comes up and we all stir the pot, you begin wondering if you are lucky, or if the fact that you watch things closely and at least doing a frequent check like I do, keeps me away from a bad situation.

Jack

uwe · 07-24-2006, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcanavera

I don't put my body weight on the handle but I hear what your saying. I agree with the torque wrench. I guess I've been doing it this way for so long without a problem, you tend to get complacent regarding your technique. It's only after something like this comes up and we all stir the pot, you begin wondering if you are lucky, or if the fact that you watch things closely and at least doing a frequent check like I do, keeps me away from a bad situation.

Jack

I think that just the fact that you check them and keep them somewhat evenly tight is what keeps you out of trouble.
I have honestly never ran across a catastrphic failure like theirs before. Someone must have really put the torque to those lugs. Or, Kodiak had a batch of soft studs. To think that 5 of 6 would shear off, is disturbing.
If you do buy a click type torque wrench, make sure and turn it back to "0" after you're done. Most of them don't like to stay at 100lb selected torque, and go aout of calibration quickly when left under tension.