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Old 12-10-2006, 04:32 PM   #29
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Re: foam insulation

I am specifying the product "Icynene" in new and existing construction - great stuff. The applicators have large investment in equipment and even so the market price is 37 cents per sq. ft. of surface @ 1" thickness. It is more expensive than the fiberglas products and worth it. Using this product has allowed reduction in heating and cooling equip. size by 20 to 25 per cent. I have no affiliation with this product, just consumer experience. It is a mess to apply I recommend haviong an applicator do the job.
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Old 12-10-2006, 08:51 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadmando
Re: foam insulation

I am specifying the product "Icynene" in new and existing construction - great stuff. The applicators have large investment in equipment and even so the market price is 37 cents per sq. ft. of surface @ 1" thickness. It is more expensive than the fiberglas products and worth it. Using this product has allowed reduction in heating and cooling equip. size by 20 to 25 per cent. I have no affiliation with this product, just consumer experience. It is a mess to apply I recommend haviong an applicator do the job.
Hi Cad,
I was just in Covington!
Parked in the court house parking lot for a few days, and got sunk in the mud along the back of that lot. The nice folks at H&K automotive pulled me out. Nice town

Michael
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Old 12-10-2006, 08:54 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by sfixx
2 questions:

What will the foam weigh overall, and is it possible that it raises the center of gravity of the trailer too much? "The density of TIGER FOAM is 1.75 lbs. per cubic foot." Is that the actual weight? (600bf divided by 12 x 1.75 = 87.5 lbs of insulation?)

Will it be difficult to apply in an even thickness, without too much waste?

One big limitation of the foam is that it must be applied above 75 degrees f. Bubble can be applied in the off season but a summer foam application probably kills a good chunk of ones camping season (putting everything back together and all).......Steve
Steve, my impression after all that reading last night was the weights you are looking at are for the "wet" or "uncured" product, but I could be wrong about that.

It doesn't seem all that hard to apply, unless you make a mistake. Clean up could be a nightmare.

The 75 to 85 degree application temp is for the foam only. They recommend that you heat the 2 part foam containers with small fan-forced space heater if applying in winter. The temparture of the surface that it is applied to is immaterial. It also cures very quickly, even in cold weather.

Jim
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Old 12-10-2006, 08:59 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by markdoane
Jim,

The wiring in my '59 was pretty basic, and I wanted to add separate circuits for lots of new stuff, like propane detectors and more lighting. That's the reason I did a complete rewiring.

With the number of dc circuits (up to 20 so far) I think it was easier to run conduit. It keeps the wiring more organized.

I used what is commonly called "Smurf Tube", for its blue color. It's corrugated plastic, very easy to work with, and uses snap together fitting. The tubing is very cheap, a couple of dollars for a 10 ft length. The fittings are more expensive, about 60 cents each. Shop for the fittings, sometimes you can find them for less.

The tubing is about 7/8" diameter. If you feel that cutting a hole in your frame channel is going to compromise the structural integrity, then don't do this. I have no reservations about a few holes.

Here is an illustration.
Nice work. What's that red line diving into the wheel well?
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Old 12-10-2006, 09:04 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by sfixx
Hey all, I know that this horse has been beaten to near death but... for the cause of science I thought that I would throw out another INSULATION idea for your consideration: Quick curing two-component spray polyurethane foam insulation.

It's the stuff that you've seen used on PBS's This Old House. They spray it into the open stud bays where it sticks and immediatly begins to expand. Usually they spray it on thick enough where it expands beyond the face of the studs and is then cut off flush to the wall surface. In an older home renovation the benefit is that it seals the walls and acts as a moisture "resistant" barrier. I may use it on the house we are about to purchase, a century home with plaster walls and no insulation. The foam can be sprayed (or poured ?) through small holes into the wall cavity where it rises and fills it up providing R-7 per inch of wall thickness.

On an Airstream perhaps spraying 1 inch thick into the open wall and then adding foil would be a good use? It's not cheap but it will provide another layer agains water penetration, provide more soundproofing, it's non-offgassing, and mold doesn't like it

Also could an ideal use be for insulating under the floor?

This is the only DIY distributor I've found so far. Good web site with lots of tech info and FAQs answered.

Tiger Foam Insulation

By the way, the trade name is ICYNENE

Merry Christmas!

Steve

Steve, DONOT USE SPRAY FOAM INSULATION!!!! Im telling you is sounds like a great idea, and does do all the things you say, but the heat thats generated by the reaction of the curing of the foam will warp the sides and the corners of the trailer, I speak from experence!!! and as a result I had to replace all of the side panels, 4 sheets and a lot of time. It was bad enought to have too do it the first time, it took me serveral months because of my work. but to have to do it again was almost too much. I ended up keeping the foam on the roof, end and front panels, and some on the corners, other then that it's all gone.
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Old 12-10-2006, 09:05 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Over59
Nice work. What's that red line diving into the wheel well?
Red would be for fire suppression, right?



Very clean looking installation Mark!

Steve
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Old 12-10-2006, 09:13 PM   #35
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Steve, DONOT USE SPRAY FOAM INSULATION!!!!...to have to do it again was almost too much.
You replaced the panels twice, why?

It sounds like this temp problem is serious, but perhaps not insurmountable. Different types and formulations of foam probably react differently. Maybe keeping the skin cool would help, or application in thinner coats? Thanks for the heads up! It's great we can explore this fully with such a broad range of experience brought to bear on the question.

Steve
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Old 12-10-2006, 09:16 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Wabbiteer
I'm fatigued over hearing over-blown R-Values of bubble wrap insulation products - this isn't personal friends, this is big business putting a bug in folks ear that gets repeated far too often…….


I too, am skeptical of some of the Reflectix claims. The material I looked at listed R-values from R-3 to R-14, “depending on application”. What the heck does that mean? I have to admit, I didn’t spend as much time on the Reflectix website as Tigerfoam. I’ll go read more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wabbiteer
The Prodex Foil-Foam-Foil heat down flow resistance is R14.5 but has sound deadening properties which is why I chose it. I paid 32¢ sq/ft for foam core, the same site has foil bubble for 26¢ sq/ft, delivered


Which website? The Prodex website? I think I read about Prodex hear on this site once. Does it only come in 4’ X 8’ sheets? How flexible is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wabbiteer
What I would like to see is a combination installation, say one-half or three-quarters inch of spray closed cell foam and then the Prodex foil-foam-foil laid on liner panels - or vice-versus, but leaving a small air gap between them. Would certainly improve energy consumption and livability in our vintage Airstreams to have true R-8 to R-10 or better in ceiling and walls...


Actually, the Tigerfoam people recommend this in some building applications, sorta. They recommend a one inch foam application against the outer walls with a layer of the pink stuff on top of that. I don’t remember all of the details because there really isn’t enough room in my 1.5 inch walls to consider something this (I just kinda skimmed thru that section).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wabbiteer
I would also like to see a structurally sound thermal barrier system to isolate the interior liners off of the frame ribs to keep conductive heat flow to a minimum, something like the mud-sill roll foam that carpenters use to float wood framework off of concrete to stop moisture and heat flow but not as 'live' to handle vibrations from motion. I've used sill-plate foam between 5/8" foil backed drywall and wall studs with good sucess in my 1920 Minnesota farmhouse. Maybe 1/8" cork glued to liners, eh?
Somebody here on this site did just that very thing. It may have been JC Ferguson, but I could be wrong. Whoever it was, they used a cork barrier along the ribs in a similar manner to what you are suggesting.

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Old 12-10-2006, 10:22 PM   #37
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Nice work. What's that red line diving into the wheel well?
Thanks. The red line is a drain line for my new air conditioner.

The coils of black and white wire are coax, and the 120vac wiring is MC lite armored cable.
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Old 12-10-2006, 11:25 PM   #38
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Wabbiteer, for a thermal break between the ribs of the trailer and the inner skin, you could use 2mm EVA foam strips similar to those used for grips on windsurfing booms. Murray's Marine carries it for windsurfing booms but it would be pricey unless you worked a deal with them. The strips could be applied with Superstick double sided tape from Challenge Sailcloth. The adhesive is very aggressive and is unaffected by moisture. A thermal break between the ribs and the interior skin is an excellent idea because aluminum readily transmitts heat and it doesn't take much of a thermal break to make a significant impact on heat migration. Before applying the interior skin, put a strip of eva foam on ribs and any other points where interior skin is attached, then attach skin thru the eva to the rib in the normal way.

EVA foam comes in many densities, but it is often used on kids toys, flipflop shower shoes, and sporting and marine goods.
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Old 12-10-2006, 11:38 PM   #39
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A thermal break between the ribs and the interior skin is an excellent idea because aluminum readily transmitts heat and it doesn't take much of a thermal break to make a significant impact on heat migration. Before applying the interior skin, put a strip of eva foam on ribs and any other points where interior skin is attached, then attach skin thru the eva to the rib in the normal way.

EVA foam comes in many densities, but it is often used on kids toys, flipflop shower shoes, and sporting and marine goods.

I used quarter inch cork for this purpose - I used spray adhesive to hold it in place on the ribs and then rivetted the skin in place through the cork. I think it works pretty well - before I put in my new skin I could see lines of condensation over the ribs in the morning, after adding the thermal break, the only condensation is on the rivets. Now to make rivets out of cork! I am interested in this discussion - I used the foil bubble but might consider the spray-in for the next project...

Carlos
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Old 12-11-2006, 10:03 PM   #40
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Steve, The best product is the one that has the fastest curing time, and heat will be generated in any of the foams that are put out today. and oddly heat is a important factor in how well it will hold up over time. The foams in a box will not last, and cost 10 times as much as having installed by a foam business. I used a type that is well know in the RV business, can't recall the name, but it can generate heat up to and over 200*. There is no problem when using it on 16 gage metal or very thick fiberglass, but when your talking 0.32 gage metal that's a whole different story. I had to replace the sheet metal on the side walls because it was like a ocean wave. When the foam was first sprayed on I guess there was no issue, but as it cured and the heat generated then the warping started. I would just stay with the old type of insulation, or foil bubble. Sometimes it best just to stick with the old technology.
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Old 12-13-2006, 04:37 PM   #41
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Well, I finally got around to calling Tigerfoam about their product. They are telling me that this stuff generates absolutely no heat as it cures. So, any chemists reading along here? Is there any reason to believe the Tigerfoam formulation is different?

I was convinced to use this stuff before, but the idea is begining to fad a bit, especially after Dan's posts.

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Old 12-13-2006, 05:03 PM   #42
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man, i can't even imagine the headache of having to open a wall up that had that spray in foam in it... i'll stick with trailers with mice and bees in the walls, thanks!

haha!

jp
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