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Old 12-09-2006, 02:53 PM   #15
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Foam....Now your talking.

As a firm believer let me add.....

I live in a SIP built house. (call it Structural (or Stress) Insulated Panels.) Foam panels.
Its Structural...and provides the best possible insulating value.

Outgassing is a myth.

Fire provides no more danger than any other home material.

I also had spray insulating foam put on the walls and ceilings of all my barns and shops. It absolutely cut moisture and rodent problems to zero. Temp in both summer and winter is easily stabilized....the walls strengthened, and most external sounds blocked out.

Insulated railroad cars and over the road truck trailers use the foam...have for years...and I have not heard of a disintegration problem from flexing and vibration.

I would bet that skin dents would be minimized with a foam inner bond too. If I could get one of those abandoned Airstreams out of the woods near me for a CHEAP price I would be willing to foot the costs of an experimental go at foaming a rehab. I have faith in it.
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Old 12-09-2006, 03:10 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by SmokelessJoe
. . Some people have mentioned the wiring harnesses, suggesting foam would make later servicing difficult. I think that is of small concern, when judged against how superior a foam insulating job can be.

Sergei
It's not that hard to put in plastic conduit, then you don't need to worry about the wiring either.

I almost wish I had mine sprayed. I know a lot of small boats use spray in foam, and they shake more than an airstream.
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Old 12-09-2006, 03:34 PM   #17
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Foam...

Barry (of the huge ultradollar Spartan car hauler) used it in his remodel. Even after the crash, I don't believe he had any problems with it.

As far as wiring - I would think that the foam would actually help protect the wiring from fraying against the metal ribs. If it wasn't so expensive, I'd think about using it if/when I pull the interior skins.
Marc
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Old 12-09-2006, 05:55 PM   #18
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We've sprayed urethane CLOSED cell foam in cargo trailers with no problems. It is a more rigid system, it does not expand as much, and provides R-7 per inch. That Tiger foam is the same stuff I'm talking about.

Icenene (open cell polyurethane) will absorb water.

sprayfoam.com can give you more answers.
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Old 12-09-2006, 06:04 PM   #19
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OK, I'll bite on this one and chew for a while.

My Brother-in-law (great start, right?) is in the process of adding an entire 2nd floor to his ranch home in FLorida. He had a company spray this stuff in the attic--agianst the roof, not the floor of the attic. He aslo had it sprayed on under the floor between the two floors of the house. It is anywhere from 2 to 8 inches thick, depending on the location. He loves the stuff. It does block a lot of outside noise and is a great insulating material. As others have pointed, as well, it is on the pricey side.

I want to go back and re-read a few posts here--and see what name brands people are thinking of. I'll check back in a while after I read more....maybe prices have come down enough to consider this. I'm at the point where I'm ready to start putting insulation back in.

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Old 12-09-2006, 07:37 PM   #20
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OK, so a rough estimate--here goes:

I have a 27 foot trailer. It is roughly 23.3 feet long on the interior. The floor-to-floor measurement of the shell is roughly 18.6 feet (measuring up from the floor, across the ceiling, back down to the floor). This is about 433 square feet.

Subtract out the windows, etc, and that leaves around 400 square feet to spray. The walls are about 1.5 inches thick. The TigerFoam kits come in two standard sizes, 200 and 600 square feet @ one inch thickness of the spray. The 600 square foot kit would look to be about what I need. And at $650 (around $1.00/ square foot) this is beginning to look doable. I’m looking at prices of 50 to 75 cents per square foot for the foil insulation. Plus the cost of the tape to tape it together, foam strips to set it back from the walls, glues to hold the foam strips up, etc, etc.

OK, this is beginning to look really good now.

So, more questions. The TigerFoam website claims this stuff is “closed cell”. That means that it won’t absorb or retain water. Is it also true that it acts to seal water out? I’m looking for an excuse not to have to replace the all of the Vulkem on the interior. What happens to any water that does seep in between the foam and the aluminum skins? What about water condensation? There’s more than a few threads here debating the hows and wheres of that subject. Where is the condensation likely to occur in this type of application? On the interior walls, the part that faces you when you stand in the trailer, or in between the inner and outer skins, around the foam?

All or most of the wiring would have to be placed in some kind of conduit. Mark, didn’t you use a flexible conduit on your rebuild? What type and how expensive was it? I’m about 1/3 of the way complete cleaning and inspecting the original wiring in mine and I have to say it is still in excellent shape. There was only one spot around the water heater that needed to be repaired (so far).

So, what am I missing here? Time to read more.

Jim
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Old 12-09-2006, 10:57 PM   #21
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OK, so I just spent a couple of hours reading the info over on the Tigerfoam and Sprayfoam websites. I can’t think of any reason not to use this stuff. Probably the biggest selling point is that it already being used in RV’s, Boats, Refrigerated trailers and the like. These newer formulations are much more rigid than the old stuff. It actually helps to dampen vibration, rather than being torn apart by it. You get about an R7 value at 1” application. Not bad. Condensation is not a problem because of its thermal properties. It actually seals out water.

I think I’m gonna use this stuff. Melody Ranch—keep one of those paddles ready for me, just in case.

Jim
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Old 12-10-2006, 01:35 AM   #22
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I bought the bubble Foil for about $.25 a sq, the foil has an R value of 14.
Very quick and easy to install.

So your getting half the insulating value R-7 for three or four times the cost.

Your also would be using something that can have other unknown factors when you install it and or in the future.
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Old 12-10-2006, 08:15 AM   #23
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Foiled again?

2 questions:

What will the foam weigh overall, and is it possible that it raises the center of gravity of the trailer too much? "The density of TIGER FOAM is 1.75 lbs. per cubic foot." Is that the actual weight? (600bf divided by 12 x 1.75 = 87.5 lbs of insulation?)

Will it be difficult to apply in an even thickness, without too much waste?

One big limitation of the foam is that it must be applied above 75 degrees f. Bubble can be applied in the off season but a summer foam application probably kills a good chunk of ones camping season (putting everything back together and all).

Foam still has many unknows but has double bubble foil even begun to stand the test of time?


Hmmmmm?

Steve
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Old 12-10-2006, 08:23 AM   #24
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. . Mark, didn’t you use a flexible conduit on your rebuild? What type and how expensive was it? I’m about 1/3 of the way complete cleaning and inspecting the original wiring in mine and I have to say it is still in excellent shape.
Jim
Jim,

The wiring in my '59 was pretty basic, and I wanted to add separate circuits for lots of new stuff, like propane detectors and more lighting. That's the reason I did a complete rewiring.

With the number of dc circuits (up to 20 so far) I think it was easier to run conduit. It keeps the wiring more organized.

I used what is commonly called "Smurf Tube", for its blue color. It's corrugated plastic, very easy to work with, and uses snap together fitting. The tubing is very cheap, a couple of dollars for a 10 ft length. The fittings are more expensive, about 60 cents each. Shop for the fittings, sometimes you can find them for less.

The tubing is about 7/8" diameter. If you feel that cutting a hole in your frame channel is going to compromise the structural integrity, then don't do this. I have no reservations about a few holes.

Here is an illustration.
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Old 12-10-2006, 08:31 AM   #25
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Weighing all the options we signed the contract to have cellulose blown into our house instead of the foam. I researched it and the foam was far superior but with the cost being three times that of cellulose we will be long dead before we realize any savings. Using it in Chummy is still an appealing option due to the noise reduction factor since we ride inside. I have found that all of my wires are encased in a caulky, gooey stuff now which makes it impossible to pull new wires through the walls. Any new wiring I have done has gone on the surface so that is not a problem.
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Old 12-10-2006, 12:52 PM   #26
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I'm fatigued over hearing over-blown R-Values of bubble wrap insulation products - this isn't personal friends, this is big business putting a bug in folks ear that gets repeated far too often.

The Reflectix people hype their product like old fashioned snake-oil salesmen; if one wants the testing procedure and outcomes you must call the company to get a copy - they only transmit the maximum vale in their literature... The Insulation 4 Less company is more forthcoming with true details:

R Values - single layer foil-bubble-foil
Heat flow down: 14.1
Heat flow up: 4.9
Heat flow horizontal: 6.2
(R Values determined in guarded hot box facility according to ASTM C236, to achieve published R-values the air space must be at least 3/4" and be perfectly sealed... (among other things))

The Prodex Foil-Foam-Foil heat down flow resistance is R14.5 but has sound deadening properties which is why I chose it. I paid 32˘ sq/ft for foam core, the same site has foil bubble for 26˘ sq/ft, delivered

What I would like to see is a combination installation, say one-half or three-quarters inch of spray closed cell foam and then the Prodex foil-foam-foil laid on liner panels - or vice-versus, but leaving a small air gap between them. Would certainly improve energy consumption and livability in our vintage Airstreams to have true R-8 to R-10 or better in ceiling and walls...

I would also like to see a structurally sound thermal barrier system to isolate the interior liners off of the frame ribs to keep conductive heat flow to a minimum, something like the mud-sill roll foam that carpenters use to float wood framework off of concrete to stop moisture and heat flow but not as 'live' to handle vibrations from motion. I've used sill-plate foam between 5/8" foil backed drywall and wall studs with good sucess in my 1920 Minnesota farmhouse. Maybe 1/8" cork glued to liners, eh?

Anyhow, thanks for reading this far!
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Old 12-10-2006, 03:32 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfixx
One big limitation of the foam is that it must be applied above 75 degrees f. Bubble can be applied in the off season but a summer foam application probably kills a good chunk of ones camping season (putting everything back together and all).
Steve
The two components must be above 75, the ambient temp/surface temp can be lower.
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Old 12-10-2006, 03:35 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by markdoane
I used what is commonly called "Smurf Tube", for its blue color. It's corrugated plastic, very easy to work with, and uses snap together fitting. The tubing is very cheap, a couple of dollars for a 10 ft length. The fittings are more expensive, about 60 cents each. Shop for the fittings, sometimes you can find them for less.
Electrical (grey) PVC fittings can be glued on to smurf pipe.
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