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Old 09-18-2007, 10:52 AM   #29
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the "glass" I'm referring to here is the glass wool batting similar to the stuff used in Vintage airstreams between the shell skins. I'll do a "behind window glass" test with and without solar film later.

Zep
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Old 09-19-2007, 09:11 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doorgunner
Nice ZEPP!
My solar convection loop heater is just a bigger box!
I'll guess that you will see temps behind the glass at temps over 140 F. That would simulate the windows on the trailer. I use reflectix in my windows in the sun facing windows to keep inside temps down.You are going to test glass aren't you?
I'm very interested in your test results.
doorgunner,
I just buttoned up the rear belly pan area after treating the rear frame area with POR. I tore out the 2" glass insulation and replaced it with reflectix bubble foil insulation. I glued the first layer to the particle board flooring with weatherproof/waterproof construction adhesive and then overlapped the 26" tall foil back and forth about 4 times. That should give me some dead space in between each layer but particularly near the frame area where it is needed most. The Reflectix I have left will be cut into window sized pieces to be placed between the windows and the screen to cool the interior or I will attach velcro to the cut pieces and the other side of velcro to the window frame on the inside.
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Old 09-19-2007, 10:04 PM   #31
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Hey Zep. I used my heat radar gun inside the trailer at the Burnstream Court, on one of those hot days at the B'man. Noticed 121F on the inside of the trailer, at the blue stripe area next to the bed. 105 or so inside at the silver parts in the sun. In the shade areas was 89, in side with the air on. I really gotta concentrate on getting shade for next year. E's black truck had 174F, and Shadow's Hummer was 150's. Was amazed at the difference of the temp inside at the blue stripe.
Perry
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Old 09-19-2007, 10:41 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NevadaGeo
...Noticed 121F on the inside of the trailer, at the blue stripe area next to the bed. 105 or so inside at the silver parts in the sun. ...Perry
Perry, good to hear from you. I guess the blue stripe is quite an IR absorber (or is that adsorber?). I agee it doesn't make much sense. I'll add other kinds of paint to my list of what to put on the outside of the test panels. It will be interesting to see what the outside skin temp is doing. My sensors are only good to 100C, 212F. I'm guessing the skin could get close to that.

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Old 09-19-2007, 10:58 PM   #33
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Any chance of doing a shade verses full sunlight for a typical 'stream finish? I would have lost a bet that the reflective surface would tossed the energy back instead of absorbing it, but it's obvious that our precious obsession's do a pretty good job of sucking in solar power. My surfaces are hotter to the touch than a SOB's white box .
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Old 09-20-2007, 08:29 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoAgRV
Any chance of doing a shade verses full sunlight for a typical 'stream finish? ... .
Not a side-by-side test, but it would be easy to put the test box in the sun for an hour, then shade it and watch the temperatures.

One thing I am surprised by is my "hand" test where the mill finish (that's the typical unpolished finish) seemed hotter than the moderately polished panel. I had always thought that even though metal looked relfective (polished) to the eye at visible wavelengths, that at IR it really didn't make much of a difference. We will find out...

The important thing is to get every good idea, like yours, on the record before I start modifying the panels, like painting them.

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Old 09-20-2007, 05:08 PM   #35
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First data

It was obvious right off the bat, like in two minutes, that the mill finish is 20 degrees hotter than the polished finish. The sun angle was pretty low and it was a moderate day here today, so I think it will be even hotter on a hot day in July.

The rest of the data is for your interpretation. You can see from the notes on the graph that there were a couple of things that happened--a tree shadow crept across the test fixture starting around 1:30 and completely covered the mill finish panel by 1:50.

Just for fun I did a quick experiment with a wet cloth over the other panel that has an outside panel sensor. I put the cloth, a thin cleaning cloth you get in a bundle at the auto shop, on about 1:15. It wasn't sopping wet, just wet. You can see that it held the panel temp in the low 80s until 2:00. The variation in temperature is due to the changing breeze. It looks to me like you could significantly cool an Airstream with two long pieces of cheap fabric along the roof and a couple of gallons of water per day. There was no shade on the wet rag panel until 2:10.

I thought I would see a greater difference between the inside panel temperatures. However, it's clear that the yellow line is for the bubble-filled panel. Considering that it has a mill finish outer panel, it performed very well--almost 50% better than the panels with glass wool or air. The mystifying thing is why the air panel didn't do worse.

The lowest data line in the chart is the temperature inside the box. You can see that the outside panel with the wet rag got down to a lower temperature than even the inside temp (the inside temp is buffered a little by the dirt). I've noticed that when doing photo development, my chemicals will cool rapidly and get down to something like 5 degrees below the air temperaure, just due to evaporation in this very low humidity climate in Colorado.

The Y axis temperatures are in degrees times 10. So 1000 on the scale is 100 degrees F. Samples were taken every two minutes.

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No more data until next week. The Caravel is meeting a SOB on Vail Pass for the weekend.

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Old 09-20-2007, 09:52 PM   #36
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I love data!

Great info. it would be interesting to see the 'wet rag' data down here in the good ole humid south. I suspect the results would be moderated a bit due to the lack of evap' cooling effect.
Do you think the air cavity did better due to a horizontal position and stratifying of the cavity?

On another note, perhaps your studies could allow us to apply for a Federal energy tax reduction for polished 'streams
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Old 09-20-2007, 10:53 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoAgRV
Great info. it would be interesting to see the 'wet rag' data down here in the good ole humid south. I suspect the results would be moderated a bit due to the lack of evap' cooling effect.
Do you think the air cavity did better due to a horizontal position and stratifying of the cavity?

...
Good thoughts.

BTW the fixture wasn't horizontal, it was against a burm at about 20 degrees of tilt--into the east so it got the most direct sun around 10 AM. After that the sun swings higher but to the south.

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Old 09-28-2007, 01:41 PM   #38
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Well, the hot weather seems to have passed me by. As an alternative test (for now) I decided to blast the outer panels with hot air from a heat gun, holding them approximately 200 degrees F and see how fast the inner panels heated up. This first chart is a time history of all the tests:

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The individual tests are charted here. I overlaid the two panel tests with glass wool insulation, figuring that since this was a convected heat, not radiated heat test, that they woudl perform very similarly, which they did.

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You have to draw your own conclusions, but the foil/bubble insulation doesn't seem to perform appreciably better than glass (in this case). My conclusion above was wrong because I had assumed which channels were which, but later discovered that I was wrong about which panel was which in the chart in the earlier post.

As the tests progress, I'd be glad to send the raw data in the form of Excel spreahsheets to anyone who asks.

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Old 10-01-2007, 07:44 AM   #39
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Zep' would you mind doing a test with blue or pink foam Insulation, with and without airgap

Kip
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:47 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerowood
Zep' would you mind doing a test with blue or pink foam Insulation, with and without airgap

Kip
Isn't that stuff kinda stiff? I sure can do it in my flat panels, but what about real applications in the shell? And what is the purpose of the air gap? I know the foil/bubble insulation needs an air gap to achieve its advertised R value, but I am unaware that the foam stuff suffers from conduction (contact) problems.

Since the season of high solar radiation is behind us for this year, my plan for the winter is to do simple insulation performance tests, such as you propose. I'd like to do the white paint test, but that's really a radiation test, so either I get a heat lamp and calibrate the radiation between the panels, or wait till spring. I am considering the heat lamp...

Tell me more about the blue/pink stuff.

By the way, I'm going to do a more extended test per post #38. More time, hold the face panel temperture more steady, etc. The heat conduction, as indicated by the slope of the inner panel temperature line, could be more precisely measured if I extend the test. Post #38 was just a quick and dirty to see if there were any startling results. I'm going to try for a 15 degree temperature rise on the inner panels, rather than the 5 degrees I got in the post #38 charts.

Roger
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Old 03-15-2008, 12:36 PM   #41
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I've done a different insulation test (hopefully more understandable and useful) and posted the results here
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f46/...sts-40442.html

Zep
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