Anyone used Foil Bubble Insulation????

[soldiermedic]

I am currently doing a partial floor replacement in my 68 Safari. Following the process that Stefroberts made almost famous, I took my lower interior panels off. Most of the insulation looks ok, but there are some spots that look pretty bad. I am interested in using the foil insulation due to it being waterproof, very efficient, and shapable. Has anyone in the past used this? If so did you double the thickness to fill the entire space, or just use a single sheet? Also, anyone know the rivet size for placing the panels back into the ribs once I finish?

Thanks,

SM

[CaddyGrn]

Hi,

We used the foil bubble insulation on our 1963 Bambi during restoration. My hubby made a "sandwich" out of a material acually designed to use in swamp coolers as well. You might check out his thread listed below to see what we did and scroll down to post #121

http://www.airforums.com/forum...i-17925-9.html

I think the insulation is working fairly well so far... we did some summer camping and late fall camping and stayed cozy. He has a indoor/outdoor themometer and looks at the readings often. In the blazing summer sun over 95 degrees, the A/S gets hot without fans or air... in the cold nights the A/S gets cold without the heater. But when we stop and turn on the heater, things warm up quickly...

Rivet size...I think you want to go one size larger when replacing your rivets. I would buy a couple different sizes and try one or two out where they won't show to make a determination. It might depend on what size drill you used to drill out the old rivets. There are several threads on this, use the search to get the info from the experts!

Mrs. NorCal Bambi (traveling in S Tardis)

[boatdoc]

Originally Posted by soldiermedic

I am currently doing a partial floor replacement in my 68 Safari. Following the process that Stefroberts made almost famous, I took my lower interior panels off. Most of the insulation looks ok, but there are some spots that look pretty bad. I am interested in using the foil insulation due to it being waterproof, very efficient, and shapable. Has anyone in the past used this? If so did you double the thickness to fill the entire space, or just use a single sheet? Also, anyone know the rivet size for placing the panels back into the ribs once I finish?

Thanks,

SM

Hi soldiermedic; The can of worms which you have opened, may not ever stop oozing out. There are many different thoughts and ideas, which some members will support and some will dispute. First of all, if you are going to do partial insulating, it will not accomplish much. To do it properly you must do entire trailer. As I have already mentioned, you will have many different ideas tossed before you which may confuse you more than you think. Some may involve more work than you are willing to do. Using the KISS method is the most logical. To do this, you will need to understand what happens within your walls and your belly pan.
Most of the time our trailers are exposed to fast changing temps outside while inside lags behind that rate of change, because of heated or cooled interior. By virtue of those differing temps meeting at your walls, condensation occurs within the walls. There are remedies for that but how complicated do you want to get? We have experimented much with insulating cabins in boats, where temps of cold water from bottom collide with hot temps from the sun on the topside. In the end we have found that whatever we did the best results came from maintaining opposing temps close to equal. This however became a engineering nightmare and the idea was abandoned because of costs involved. This is why the KISS rule makes sense.
I am in the process of restoring 26' Arg 1973, and I have considered many avenues of insulating it but fell back on the KISS principal. I am using 48" wide Prodex with 14.5 R value with 97% radiant heat reflection. My method is to provide air space on both sides of Prodex. To properly space and attach the Prodex, rigid or flexible urethane sheets [such as used by HVAC or builders] can be cut to 2" wide strips for stand off from outside skin.
By gluing one two inch strip vertically in the center will provide mounting surface for Prodex. Two one inch wide strips should be glued next to each rib to attach Prodex on the sides to the ribs. Using PA-300 Duct Insulation Adhesive, which relatively heavy consistency and can applied by brush in contact areas after pre-fitting the Prodex into each space. Be sure that only the contact areas of Prodex are pressed in and not in the air space areas. This is to ensure that the air space is uniform between Prodex and outer shell. It is better not to cut the Prodex oversize between ribs, to avoid bulging in the middle. Caulk the edges of Prodex once they are in place. Wiring should be placed over the top of insulation preferably over the center spacer. In the end caps where forming of Prodex is difficult to do, glue in plenty of 2"x2" pieces of spacer material to maintain uniform airspace. The last is quite important. Same process should be folloved in the belly pan, but larger air space is preferred. With as much as I would like to vent each section of airspace on the top between the frames, it would be a daunting task. Small, perhaps 1/2" lightweight perforated tube would have to be installed full length of the roof to vent the outside air space, with it's ends vented through the roof. Question is how involved do you wish to get. Hot air rises which would vent the outside air space thus reducing the temps differential.
This is why KISS rule exists. Having a uniform air space on both sides of the insulation is a simplest and most effective measure. If you wish to get technical PM me. Good luck with your project. Thanks, "Boatdoc"

[soldiermedic]

Originally Posted by boatdoc

First of all, if you are going to do partial insulating, it will not accomplish much. To do it properly you must do entire trailer.

Good information. I had only planned to replace the insulation in the lower front panels and down the curb side since that was all I had removed.

We use the KISS principle everyday in the Army. I didnt think it would be so bad to have a better insulation for a small part of the interior, but now I am unsure.

Anyone else willing to sound off?

SM

[A-Merry-Can]

i'm a foil convert. here's where i am at the moment...

http://www.airforums.com/forum...1&d=1155649834

i'm using 3/4" foam strips against the skin, and 1/2" strips between the insulation and the inner skins. there's LOTS to read on the forums about this. check out uwe's thread as well. he's done an excellent job.

jp

[Druupy]

I used Reflectix, bubble foil on my pickup canopy.

It was an all aluminum, other than the silicone I used to seal the corners.
Almost every night in the cooler 8 months of the year, it would rain inside the canopy. So I used contact cement on the canopy and the reflectix. The idea is to make zero air space between the metal and the waterproof insulation. If moisture can't get to the "COLD METAL" it can't condense.
Works won-der-ful-ee.
And it keeps the inside reletively cool in the hot sun of summer.

Philosophy point?
Poor insulation lasted since 1968? How long will good stuff last?

[boatdoc]

Originally Posted by Druupy

I used Reflectix, bubble foil on my pickup canopy.

It was an all aluminum, other than the silicone I used to seal the corners.
Almost every night in the cooler 8 months of the year, it would rain inside the canopy. So I used contact cement on the canopy and the reflectix. The idea is to make zero air space between the metal and the waterproof insulation. If moisture can't get to the "COLD METAL" it can't condense.
Works won-der-ful-ee.
And it keeps the inside reletively cool in the hot sun of summer.

Philosophy point?
Poor insulation lasted since 1968? How long will good stuff last?

Hi Druppy; While you are correct in your theory of no air space no condensation, you loose R value since the dead air space is a good insulator.
On the other hand equal temps do not cause condensation. Aluminum skin is a good temp conductor, and if it is so why should there be high temp differences on opposite sides of the skin? It is the insulation that offers R value as well as the moisture barrier. Obviously, you had no moisture barrier or insulating quality since it was raining inside your cab. The big factor in small confined places is the body heat which rises to meet cold air inside, because your windows do not offer any R value. It is not proper to compare pick up cab space, to a Airstream where temps are controlled. Thanks for your input, "Boatdoc"

[markdoane]

My head hurtz. . . .

[LI Pets]

I disagree that using it partially won't be effective. heat loss is heat loss if you slow it up in some places it MUST improve the heat loss.

If that were the case nobody would insulate their homes, because the windows have a very different R value than the walls etc.

Absolutly use it, great stuff, put it where you need it.

[Druupy]

On with our research.

One half inch (1/2") trapped air gap will give you R-2 on average.

One layer of reflectix will give you 1/2" of traped air.

One layer of reflectix supported between air spaces is rated R-16.8 .

So, 3 layers of reflectix together should get you R-16.8, in less than 1-1/2" thickness, give you no air migration for moisture transfer, and be easy to install.

Easy can be used as a substitute word for simple. KIES

[GeeJay]

How about spraying 1 part or 2 part urethane foam? Avion used this for years. So have/do van converters. High R value, no exposed exterior skin. The only cold/heat transmission would from the ribs and nothing can get around that.

I used to run a boat building company and we used this for cold box insulation. Worked real well.

Spray between the ribs, let it expand, then trim with wide blade running down the ribs.

Any expert opinions out there??

Still lookin'

[boatdoc]

Originally Posted by GeeJay

How about spraying 1 part or 2 part urethane foam? Avion used this for years. So have/do van converters. High R value, no exposed exterior skin. The only cold/heat transmission would from the ribs and nothing can get around that.

I used to run a boat building company and we used this for cold box insulation. Worked real well.

Spray between the ribs, let it expand, then trim with wide blade running down the ribs.

Any expert opinions out there??

Still lookin'

Hi Geejay; Expandable foam is very dangerous to AS's. If you get a locked in pocket it will bulge or even blow out your skins as it expands under pressure.
Thanks, "Boatdoc"

[boatdoc]

Originally Posted by markdoane

My head hurtz. . . .

Hi Mark; Maybe two asprins could take care of it. Your humor is enjoyable and apreciated, "Boatdoc"

[boatdoc]

Originally Posted by Lipets

I disagree that using it partially won't be effective. heat loss is heat loss if you slow it up in some places it MUST improve the heat loss.

If that were the case nobody would insulate their homes, because the windows have a very different R value than the walls etc.

Absolutly use it, great stuff, put it where you need it.

Hi Lipets; I guess you have misread my comment. Where there is no insulation you must install it. The comment was that it is not going to improve stopping of temps transmission elsewhere by having only one section done with Prodex. Thanks, "Boatdoc"

[LI Pets]

Yeh, I did not follow that 100%

[GeeJay]

Originally Posted by boatdoc

Hi Geejay; Expandable foam is very dangerous to AS's. If you get a locked in pocket it will bulge or even blow out your skins as it expands under pressure.
Thanks, "Boatdoc"

We are talking about installing insulation with the inner skin off are we not? Urethane foam does not expand further after it has cured and if sprayed on an open surface there is no pressure to cause distortion of the substrate.

As I said, Avion sprayed the inside of the exterior skin when the outer shell was complete. They called it "Thermo-X" insulation. See page from 1989 brochure:http://www.gradeless.com/avion/1989/ed2/Page12.jpg

I feel this is superior to "hung" FG as in Airstreams.

Hmmm.....

[CaddyGrn]

I would agree you should insulate the parts you are fixing. Besides you may be insulating the part someone sleeps next to. Ever sleep next to a cold Airstream wall.... brrrrr..... We had discussed at one time even using insulite (the stuff used when backpacking...) We used to use it just between us and the walls on our sailboat (not installed) and it really made a significant difference when in the cold. Moisture happens. Do what seems best for you and your pocketbook and go out camping and enjoy your Airstream!

Mrs. NorCal Bambi (traveling in S Tardis)

[boatdoc]

Originally Posted by GeeJay

We are talking about installing insulation with the inner skin off are we not? Urethane foam does not expand further after it has cured and if sprayed on an open surface there is no pressure to cause distortion of the substrate.

As I said, Avion sprayed the inside of the exterior skin when the outer shell was complete. They called it "Thermo-X" insulation. See page from 1989 brochure:http://www.gradeless.com/avion/1989/ed2/Page12.jpg

I feel this is superior to "hung" FG as in Airstreams.

Hmmm.....

Hi geejay; Applying a spay foam when trailer is constructed new, is most likely a fine idea however, there is much more to consider doing it under restoration process. The inner skins would have to be removed completely at the same time. Foam than can be sprayed onto the walls. Attention would have to be paid as to type of foam used. Semi rigid foam would most likely withstand the flexing of the trailer, but here is a added weight. Rigid, closed cell urethane foam may fracture and slowly disintegrate into dust in some areas.
Second issue at hand is that you would be foaming in wires for ever, as well as all other attaching hardware which can become a nightmare should you need to replace them.
Spray foam used in commercial buildings has weight disadvantage to insulation such as Prodex. Repair of dents will be more difficult etc. I firmly believe that the cost and effort of providing open channeling for the wiring alone would create much difficulties, and that makes insulating with bubble wrap a much better and simpler choice. Just to trim the foam to a level surface would be a lot of work. It is anyone's individual choice, but I would not consider it. Thanks, "Boatdoc"

[LI Pets]

I agree, go foil, KISS

[boatdoc]

Originally Posted by CaddyGrn

I would agree you should insulate the parts you are fixing. Besides you may be insulating the part someone sleeps next to. Ever sleep next to a cold Airstream wall.... brrrrr..... We had discussed at one time even using insulite (the stuff used when backpacking...) We used to use it just between us and the walls on our sailboat (not installed) and it really made a significant difference when in the cold. Moisture happens. Do what seems best for you and your pocketbook and go out camping and enjoy your Airstream!

Mrs. NorCal Bambi (traveling in S Tardis)

Hi Mrs. NorCalBambi; I have never suggested to soldiermedic not to insulate.
I think that some have misunderstood content of the post. Surely he must insulate his walls. What I was trying to get across is, that use of sectional bubble wrap will not increase his overall R value, and that his total R value will only be that of fiberglass insulation, since the majority of insulation is fiberglass. Thank you, "Boatdoc"