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Old 01-17-2017, 09:14 AM   #1
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State Parks are... Fund Strapped

A short rambling article in today's Wall Street Journal, about funding State Parks as not sufficient, is a sign of 'things' to come. The author, Will Connors may have never owned a tent nor stepped off into a State Park to investigate.

Many people at these State Parks volunteer. They may get propane, water and sometimes electricity... but it is less expensive than a State paid employee with benefits, keeping campsites tidy and those camping paying for their visits. These are the heroes that are never mentioned... the volunteer.

The complaint made is that one option is to have State Parks named by a 'party', being private or corporate, by naming it. You know... Pepsi Falls Vermont named after a corporation, or Mount Everest, named after an individual. This naming would include in most cases finances to... do something that was not even discussed in the article to keep it, brief in length. There is nothing wrong, in my opinion, naming a State Park after a person or a company who gives financial assistance for upgrading a site. A Taco John State Park or Buffalo Bill Reservoir... a way to identify a place(s) on a map. We already see too many Boulder City's named for towns. But, I do not mind. Custer, South Dakota... is fine.

I agree that State and National Forest / BLM campsites are too cheap. It was to encourage people to camp out and enjoy the outdoors. Maybe going from $5 to $50 is a bit... extreme. $10... for unimproved campsites is reasonable. My opinion is to 'follow the money'. Where did it go and why?

There are millions of dry camps that are NOT costing anyone to support. These are the Off the Grid campsites used by Hunters in the Fall and campers the rest of the year.

Commercial Campsites can get pricey. State Parks... do not offer similar amenities, but are much cheaper. If you have visited remote campsites, they need a big improvement... neglect is the greatest issue. I have been there. I see it every year. How can these issue be solved? So many questions, so little space to discuss.

Most of these cases involve Tax Dollars being taken and used for... optional things for government to 'invest' funds, that did flow to State Parks.

This does not do the discussion due justice, but maybe a number of you who do Boondock Off the Grid and at more upscale State Facilities have an opinion.

Fort Robinson, Nebraska is my example of a State Park that is run like a business and should be a MODEL for others in the USA.

What do you have to say? Staying mute is not a positive comment.
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Old 01-17-2017, 09:43 AM   #2
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Tax sweeps, pulling funds from the intended use is a major cause of the deferred maintenance.

Right now in Az. media cameras with "at the pump" interviews about gas taxes.
Currently $.18 per gallon gas tax, that has been repeatedly swept into general fund. Some legislator has taken up the cry for road improvements and stating that the current tax hasn't been bumped in years. He proposes a bump to $.28 per gal. Then the media looks for sound bite that agrees, and gets them for free.

Nothing will stop another fund sweep back to general funds.


Got a fix for that style of fund raising?
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Old 01-17-2017, 10:11 AM   #3
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Could and is worse. Illinois robbed the (self sustaining, profitable) teacher's retirement fund some time back. Now pensions are in jeopardy as the State nears bankruptcy. Makes my wife's future questionable.
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Old 01-17-2017, 10:57 AM   #4
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That is apparently true of Mississippi State Parks.
Budget cuts are severely affecting the quality of the state parks.
You cannot be assured of getting proper voltage to your trailer from the pedestal.
It's like they have no money for repairs.
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Old 01-17-2017, 10:58 AM   #5
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Commercial Campsites can get pricey. State Parks... do not offer similar amenities, but are much cheaper. If you have visited remote campsites, they need a big improvement... neglect is the greatest issue. I have been there. I see it every year. How can these issue be solved? So many questions, so little space to discuss.
I am currently enjoying beachfront camping at 3 California state parks. San Elijo, San Clemente, and Crystal Cove. Total cost for 10 days of camping is over $800! Prices have risen substantially since doing this trip three years ago. What has changed? Nothing. No improvements...same gravel/sand sites, except the vegetation seems to be more worn, the bathrooms are dirty, firepits full of trash, and park personnel don't seem to do much but look for infractions. Checkout time is 12 pm but you cannot check in 20 miles down the road until 2pm or 3pm so you have to go somewhere and wait. What have they don in those two hours to prep the sites.....nothing.

So in many ways, remote underused campsites are better. There may not be a camp host and the ranger may only drive through once a day to check things out and collect a $5 or $10 fee but that is fine. I can pick up after the few a*holes who leave their trash.

But you have to wonder where the money goes if not back to the campgrounds.
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Old 01-17-2017, 11:02 AM   #6
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"So in many ways, remote underused campsites are better. There may not be a camp host and the ranger may only drive through once a day to check things out and collect a $5 or $10 fee but that is fine. I can pick up after the few a*holes who leave their trash."

I find myself becoming more and more in this "camp" as well. Less crowded too.
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Old 01-17-2017, 11:30 AM   #7
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"So in many ways, remote underused campsites are better. There may not be a camp host and the ranger may only drive through once a day to check things out and collect a $5 or $10 fee but that is fine. I can pick up after the few a*holes who leave their trash."

I find myself becoming more and more in this "camp" as well. Less crowded too.
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I do and feel the same. There are many who do not deposit the envelope with a check or cash payment, as well. This is more on the honor system in the National Forest.

Lake Mead National Recreation Area is an example in my current winter residence 'area'. Volunteers do the majority of work and myself, at the age of 67, is younger than those maintaining the campsites. It could be that the Baby Boomers are pushing the attendance numbers UP and eventually this will also subside.

I enter for Free. I paid 50% of the posted daily camp fee, when using the camp sites. I also looked around and see many things that need repair or improvement... but do not dare to touch anything, as Lake Mead is also a National Park. I discovered this while metal detecting the boulder beaches looking for whatever turned up and was told it was 'illegal' to disturb what is in the ground or surface at a National Park. OK... I am not going to argue with those carrying a 9mm.

We all observe these things that common sense finds not making any sense. But feel helpless to take it upon ourselves to fix and improve. I find water pump jacks that have not had been greased for years and the rubber gaskets are dried out. Since I grease my trailer hitch balls with grease... I do some R&R on things that need some attention. Possibly, illegally.

The Lake Mead campsites are becoming so overgrown with trees hanging over camp sites, that you want to take clippers and trim them back, but reality sinks in and I do not want to disturb anything...

On mountain roads a dead tree falls over it and people drive around it, rather than pulling if off to the side. I have taken my chain saw on second trips to be prepared to cut and dismember trees blocking access to some of our campsites.

Yosemite had these canvas cabins at the end of the park road which must have been torn down now, due to rats and deteriorated conditions for any possibility for renting. I was not about to spend an evening in one.

Who do you contact? What can you do? Recreation today has become a come and see and stand in line and follow. This is what is expected today. I know from the 2016 Wyoming Adventure that many expected a Tour Guide, Lectures, Sight Seeing tours... yet few even bothered to read the posts within the Thread about 'things to see and do'... ON YOUR OWN ADVENTURE. I was not going to change the purpose of this Find your Own Adventure. I had already done it... and will guide you to a fantastic campsite, and you explore at your time and leisure.

I am an outdoors person. The fewer people, the more I enjoy what I do. It is against my personality to take groups into my favorite, undiscovered campsites, but do it for introducing others to true Off the Grid camping. It is tough for me as living isolated in the forests of Montana did not make me a socializer. But I did it.

If we keep on topic about the maintenance of public campsites, this Thread will prosper and new ideas may spark new conversations. Be well and 2017 this Spring will bring most of out of our shells and enjoy what is left of our Frontier.
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Old 01-17-2017, 11:59 AM   #8
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I think sponsored partnerships may be the only way to save these kinds of facilities. I'm probably not too up to date on the situation, but our Ontario Provincial parks were a mess...underfunded and in dire need of repairs and upgrading. So they passed them over to Concessions to run them ...even worse in my opinion. Now the parks are run by the provincial authority again, but they have local or province wide sponsorship's that provide extra funds and we all get some advertising in our face...I'm good with that. We pay a lot more for o'nite Provincial or National Park fees here than you do in the US Parks. But the upside is we have marvelous tracts of land that are for the most part unspoiled and campsites are reasonably well kept ...and policed!. We watched several campers escorted out of the park for simply scavenging wood from the beach. Rules don't always immediately make sense for some people but they are there for a reason and park personnel are very good at communicating both rules and reasons if asked.
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Old 01-17-2017, 12:33 PM   #9
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State Parks

Naming State Parks using corporate names is a wonderful idea! These corporations could provide their products for sale and provide funding to keep the campgrounds clean and functioning. They would do so to protect their good names! Football, baseball and basketball teams name their stadiums and arenas after corporations. Doing so provides revenue to the teams and exposure to the corporations, a win-win proposition! You'll never get the required attention to state parks if left to government. Government is inefficient, greedy and arrogant. The employees develop a mind-set that supports poor government. It's simply the nature of government! When you have a lifetime job, can't be fired, receive benefits paid for by force by someone else, are paid a salary unrelated to your worth it is easy to understand why state parks are not well run by ANY government entity. Privitize the parks, and things will change, quickly! It is RARE that government provides a win-win situation in transactions. The reason is simple, government can use FORCE to get its way. So at best you get win-lose situations. The government wins and the people lose! Win-lose transactions don't happen outside of government!
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Old 01-17-2017, 01:24 PM   #10
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I see the article referenced California and Pennsylvania. Welfare roll counts too high maybe?

Maybe California can funnel some of the recreational pot tax receipts into their parks.

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Old 01-17-2017, 02:12 PM   #11
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A few years ago, California closed a number of state parks as a result of the recession of 2008. CA also closed a number of roadside rest stops, causing consternation to my wife who usually doesn't have much time between "need to" and "have to!" where these matters are concerned. Some of these were later reopened. I think it was all political: they picked the things to close that people would miss the most, to soften them up for a tax increase.


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Old 01-17-2017, 02:20 PM   #12
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Oh, goody. New Mexico is ripe for the picking when it comes to naming parks after corporate benefactors. After all, we used to have the Univ of New Mexico (basketball) Pit, now called the WisePies Pit. (WisePies is the name of a pizza outfit.)

So now maybe we can have the Coca Cola State Park rather than the Cimarron Canyon State Park; the Prudential State Park rather than the Rockhound State Park; and the Blackwater State Park rather than the Vietnam Veterans State Park.


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Old 01-17-2017, 02:29 PM   #13
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Well they have all these signs along the roadways now where businesses volunteer to clean up the roadsides...perhaps businesses and volunteer groups could start adopting campgrounds?

We need to bring back the C.C.C. and give the homeless an opportunity to work for food and housing. That is if they only wanted to work for those things....
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Old 01-17-2017, 02:34 PM   #14
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I couldn't disagree more with GTOchucky. His unfounded anti-government diatribe is one of those things that make it more difficult for dedicated employees to get their jobs done effectively. Its no great revelation that parks..including national, state, and local parks have been dealing with limited budgets now for years. Those who keep demanding budget cuts because of their anti-government politics, then blame poor service on employees are being hypocritical at best. In my opinion, some of the hardest working and most dedicated government workers are the park employees I've encountered across our great nation. That they are able to keep parks operating without budget increases for years is testament IMO to their good work.
The title of Ken Burns 2009 TV documentary states it well: National Parks, Americas Best Idea. I would include state parks, local parks, national forest camps in that category, too. Anyone who has not seen the film should. As the inscription on the Roosevelt arch at Yellowstone states, For the Benefit and Enjoyment of the People. Our parks should not become the domain of private corporations. As the fiasco in Yosemite last year demonstrates...where a private corporation lost its concession but still claims it owns the names of iconic places in the park like the Ahwanhee Hotel...it is a slippery slope to give private, profit-making enterprise an entre to parks. Would you really be OK with changing the name of Yellowstone to Microsoft Meadows, Yosemite to Yahoo Acres, or the Grand Canyon to Facebook Funland? No thanks!
It's up to all of us who travel to and make use of our public lands to do our part to protect them and make sure they are indeed well maintained for the enjoyment of the people. That includes keeping pressure on our legislators at all levels to adequately fund parks. You can also volunteer as I do to work on park projects where help is sorely needed.
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Old 01-17-2017, 02:50 PM   #15
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GTO Chucky:

I think we can all agree that government is not always a great manager but let's not paint all government employees with one broad brush.

This a polite forum with people of all walks of life. Many who have served in positions of varying government jobs and gone above and beyond daily to do the same good jobs as their counterparts in civilian employ.

Let's help figure out how to improve the systems that get bogged down in minutia so we can continue to enjoy our beautiful parks whether the are Federal, state, city, county, BLM, ccc etc.
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Old 01-17-2017, 03:07 PM   #16
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Quote:
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Well they have all these signs along the roadways now where businesses volunteer to clean up the roadsides...perhaps businesses and volunteer groups could start adopting campgrounds?

We need to bring back the C.C.C. and give the homeless an opportunity to work for food and housing. That is if they only wanted to work for those things....
Why can't use prisoners as some southern states do. In stead of air cond. cells, tv, exersize rooms etc. Il. doesn't even use for highway cleanup
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Old 01-17-2017, 03:10 PM   #17
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My wife and I were camp ground hosts in Wisconsin for the past twelve years. Last summer was our last summer. When we started our duties included cleaning the camp sites, fire pits, general litter pick up, and being a host for the park. The last duty was always emphasized as the most important duty. Starting in 2011 the park staff was drastically cut and each year since more cuts were made until last summer when we had only two state paid personnel to cover the park 24/7. Our list of duties took on an curious item. "Any other tasks requested by park management to include maintenance, and park safety." As volunteers we were responsible for campground security after 4:00 PM until 8:00 AM. We were armed with our own cellphones and the park superintendent's phone number. He was two hours away and took a vacation in the middle of the camping season so the phone went unanswered. The local police would not enforce campground rules as to noise, drinking, non-payment, destruction of property and on one occasion nudity on the campsite. We would lock ourselves inside at night and pray that our trailer and belongings would remain safe during the night. The campers were constantly complaining to us since we were the only ones there to complain to.
Aside from the safety issue, I am not a maintenance man and do not know plumbing and electric wiring and even If I did there was no budget for repairs. The one bathroom fell into such bad repair my wife would not go inside. With my meager knowledge I kept the disabled bathroom functioning so I would have a place for a shower. The water fountains did not work. Porta-Potties were brought in for the beach since those toilets were beyond repair. Trees were not trimmed leaving dangerous branches hanging over the campsites. The sites were not graded and it became impossible to level a camper. One of our responsibilities was to sell firewood and ice. This money used to go back to the park but last summer the money went to the state to cover deficits in the general budget. When it rained the sites would flood since there was no money for gravel after a day's rain the sites became a mud bath. Added to the austerity was the insult of newly raised fees. An out of state camper paid $35.00 for an electric site plus a $15.00 car pass. For that he got a bathroom which was not usable, and unreliable electricity. The breakers were over twenty years old and needed to be replaced. However,since there was no one to enforce the payment of fees most campers did not pay during the week days.
This was our favorite state park and we had been coming here for more than thirty years, hosting for twelve. I will not return there. We camped at several other state parks last summer and found similar problems,one park had no working water on the entire property. There was one full time and one part time staff person. We do not know one campground host who will be continuing hosting next summer.
The state of Wisconsin has reorganized the DNR and now park rangers have no law enforcement responsibilities. This means that the only people carrying the guns are the campers and believe me not all campers are good people. There is talk of dismantling the DNR totally and putting the parks under the Dept. of Tourism. If I include the increased fees we pay our taxes have gone up since 2011. If I add the damage to our vehicles due to bad roads our taxes have skyrocketed.
Once I proudly recommended our state parks today I warn all to stay away. In fact our roads have become so bad it is best to avoid Wisconsin altogether.
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Old 01-17-2017, 04:08 PM   #18
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Why can't use prisoners as some southern states do. In stead of air cond. cells, tv, exersize rooms etc. Il. doesn't even use for highway cleanup

Goes along with an idea I've been thinking about. Give everyone who is released from prison a guaranteed job, if they don't have one (which would include the majority of ex-cons, I would imagine). It doesn't have to be a fun job, and the ex-prisoners can be fired if they don't show up for work or won't work when they do show up. But in all fairness, it is difficult to imagine how someone can stay out of prison if they can't get a job when they get out. I'm sure a lot of them will end up back in prison anyway, but if they do, at least it won't be because they couldn't get a job.
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Old 01-17-2017, 04:50 PM   #19
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The frustration of considerate tent and trailer campers show in Post #9 GTOChucky and Post #15 Hittenstiehl understands that negative attention is directed to the wrong people.

I have been on both sides of this.

Dealing with 'people' can be very difficult. I have found that in my experiences with 'Adventures'. An entire spectrum of tastes, preferences and attitudes.

Many who work the State and National Park Systems get... burned out and leave from one site to another. Many full time employees will take maintenance jobs at the Park to avoid contact with... people. True. I need not cite references.

Attendance at the most popular National Parks has exceeded expectations, although facilities are not much changed since the CCC constructed many during the Depression era.

Traffic. Crowds. Lack of adequate facilities. We 'love our Parks... 'to ruin'. Not only North Americans, but the entire world feels safe visiting our parks. Which they are for the most part.

Having a financial backer with naming rights would be great. Having a popular site operated as a commercial enterprise will maintain the property as a requirement and oversight. Dealing with the public is 'combat' at times, especially if those camping know you have no authority to fine or arrest those creating havoc or damaging property.

Game Wardens are probably the most respected caretakers of the outdoors. They can get your attention quickly and make your life miserable. The local Judge does not take kindly to sportsmen with... attitude issues.

Those employees at many parks collect fees, try to maintain civility among fellow campers and are the eyes and ears to enforcement. Often County Sheriff Deputies.

I have spent much of my free time in the Back Country. You get to know some of these full time Forest Service, BLM and State employees. They understand things are not what they should be... but it is much like the military. There needs to be a will and a way to get things done. Only people like ourselves can help. Find out what is needed at your favorite park may be and push the political buttons.

Otherwise, we are just blowing in the wind with no right to complain and blame. I make my point(s) very clear when with others Off the Grid. They may not like it, but I try to be polite and explain why. Most do not care. That is why I carry a short list of those whose company I find myself comfortable.

You do the same. I already have the grey hair and paid my dues.
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Old 01-17-2017, 04:54 PM   #20
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So down here in Alabama our park system is well run and self funded. It's one of the only parks of state government that is self sufficient. Our idiots in Montgomery keep raising their funding and causing them to have to close parks or cut back because they pull money out for other money losing items and never put it back.

So yes, I'm going to keep voting to reduce money going to idiots in government and incompetent agencies.

That being said, this year in Alabama we passed a measure making it impossible for legislators to pull money away from the park system. We've isolated them so they can be successful and self sufficient.

I respect the park system and will continue to be a big user. We generally stay at state parks and not private parks. I appreciate the workers and the hosts.


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