State Parks are... Fund Strapped

[Pat.Mann]

Both Washington and Texas that I know of have substantial daily or annual user fees to fund state parks, and an annual pass that is also pretty pricey. Local residents get 50% off in Texas from the $65 per person fee. I always thought parks was one thing that should be tax funded - poor kids need free access a lot more than well-off ones with lots of alternatives do, but they're not going to get it if it's $5.00 per person per day for their folks to take them there. We also ran into very high daily or annual fees for Canadian park use in addition to the camping fees, which surprised me.

[Tn Traveler]

Tennessee and Alabama have great state park systems. Tennessee has been struggling with finances. Alabama has some key state parks under concessionaire management. Tennessee is now looking in to this as a possible solution. Services we demand cost real money.

[Piggy Bank]

Missouri has a great state park system. Here is why:

FUNDING FOR STATE PARK SYSTEM

The primary source of funding for the state park system is half of the dedicated constitutional tax of one-tenth-of-one-percent parks, soils and water sales tax, which provides about three-fourths of the division's budget for operation and development of state parks. All additional funding comes from revenues generated in the state park system and some federal funds.

The park, soils and water tax was created through a constitutional amendment and earmarked specifically for the state park system and efforts to stop soil erosion. The tax was first approved by voters in 1984, and has since been reapproved by voters three times in 1988, 1996 and 2006. Two-thirds of voters approved the tax the last three times, showing how much Missouri voters support their state park system.

More info can be found at:
https://mostateparks.com/page/55047/...te-park-system

[Ray Eklund]

Post #23... as a former Lee's Summit, Missouri resident and then immigrated to Colorado and Nevada... Missouri has wonderful State Parks! Arkansas also does a nice job.

I enjoyed Graham Cave State Park which is about in the center of Missouri, just north of I-70. A bit awkward to get to... but the campsites are as remote as one could be and not far from the Interstate. They also have a very decent website.

My brother has become a well known flint knapper. When youngsters, we both hunted all of the farms in the Fall and Spring for arrowheads.

Graham Cave was an interesting site to see such a large open cave facing south. Much larger than I imagined. When Indian Artifacts became commercial, we both were out of the collecting interest... as my brother could make perfect copies of Graham Cave points, Sedalia and anything made in the last 12,000 years. Even makes flint guitars for musicians that are about five inches long. Now that is talent!

Parks were established so City Slickers can go out and camp with some comforts. There just are not enough of them for the number of people who want to remove themselves from the city environment and live... well, like the 'Indians' use to do... but in luxury.

The New Mexico, Colorado and Wyoming Adventures were just an extension of my and Nancy's love of the outdoors. I had a weak moment and made access to some of our favorite Off the Grid sites available to those willing to attend. This was... truly Off the Grid and on your own in Wyoming.

This is not for everyone. Try to contact a Park you wish to visit and improve in your State. You will line trails with boulders, trim trees, cut back brush, remove... poison ivy and use some of your Boy and Girl Scout skills with the kids wanting to help out staying at a Park.

In the Rocky Mountains there are thousands of unmarked campsites. Be the unthanked service technician and improve the campsite you are at this season. Mark them onto a map with coordinates. If you meet someone that deserves a thank you... pass on a great campsite. I managed to let a number of locations known on this Forum. It is nice to be of some help. There is plenty of work to go around and nature will over run the site and it will become an archaeological site in the distant future.

I have never been arrested for cleaning up a campsite in the Rockies.

[ke6gkv]

I boonbock and stay at state parks. In ca,to much money nerver makes it to the parks. Money goes to the most popular first.

[paiceman]

I believe with current and future economic restrictions what is coming to many public facilities is privatization. With literally Billions in unfunded pension liabilities and increasing costs of virtually everything the cities, counties, states and feds need to buy I believe parks will be sold off, not in huge numbers at first, but as the sales start and government entities see the possible revenue source and elimination of expenses I just think it's inevitable. Could be a combination of public ownership with private purchase of the use and revenue for a period of time and then up for bid again. Many of the National Parks today are virtually run by concessionaires which I see as the start. We volunteered at a National Historic Site this past summer and at this facility there used to be nine full time Federal employees. Now it is cut to one, with the facility run by volunteers who are overseen by a foundation. It works and it was a terrific experience, but it's a sign of what might be coming in many public places or as noted a complete turn over, sale, to private companies.

The government agencies as they keep trying to honor the pension liabilities for government workers will need to source the funds they have squandered over the years. It's either find the money someplace OR cut back on pension payouts as a number of corporations have done over the years and some government agencies are doing now. The baby boomer group, of which many of us are members is really just getting started in retirement, as such there are millions left to "pay out" pensions to and the money for the most part is not there.

Bud

[m.hony]

In Mississippi, for the most part, Corps of Engineers and Forest Service parks are nicer and more well maintained.
I think it is simply budget.
Apparently the state of Mississippi is broker than the federal government.
After years of camping at our favorite state park, I have decided to camp at Corps parks due to dilapidated conditions in the state park, low budget, not enough staff to run and maintain the park.
That being said, we drove through another state park Saturday which we stopped camping at 5 years ago due to dilapidated conditions. That park was actually cleaner and nicer looks GM than it has been in years.
I think management has a lot to do with it.
There is a "friends of the park" group to our favorite state park, but the power of the friends only extends so far. Our hands are tied on so many things. Basically we can raise money for miniature golf and playground equipment and clean up. I guess even that is a help.


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[JCWDCW]

Originally Posted by Pat.Mann

Both Washington and Texas that I know of have substantial daily or annual user fees to fund state parks, and an annual pass that is also pretty pricey. Local residents get 50% off in Texas from the $65 per person fee. I always thought parks was one thing that should be tax funded - poor kids need free access a lot more than well-off ones with lots of alternatives do, but they're not going to get it if it's $5.00 per person per day for their folks to take them there. We also ran into very high daily or annual fees for Canadian park use in addition to the camping fees, which surprised me.

Not sure what you are saying here! If you use a provincial camping site you pay a nightly fee. You do not pay an additional daily fee as I found in Michigan parks some years ago. In addition, the camping fee lets you visit every other park for free for the day you have the permit.
If you simply want day use, then you pay the daily entrance fee....still good for all the other parks you can reach in that day.( I don't think it give credit for the camping fee however..never had to purchase a daily pass.)
This year the National Parks have a free pass for day visits...check in with the first park and inquire or go to
www.commandesparcs-parksorders.ca
JCW

[McDave]

"With literally Billions in unfunded pension liabilities and increasing costs of virtually everything the cities, counties, states and feds need to buy I believe parks will be sold off, not in huge numbers at first, but as the sales start and government entities see the possible revenue source and elimination of expenses I just think it's inevitable."

Wow, talk about unwanted stepchildren. It's ironic that the way the states ended up with many of the parks they now have is because the people who used to own the land got tired of paying property taxes on it, in many cases the land was unproductive for business uses, and the owners could get a big tax deduction for making a donation of it to the state. Now it's evidently becoming as big a burden for the state as it was for the original owners, so the poor stepchild will have to hit the road.


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[USAtraveler]

McDave...that's an amazing statement. Please let us know where that kind of land turnover has taken place. Outside of some rare instances that might have occurred during the Great Depression in California, I have just never heard of this happening here. I just can't imagine anyone having land in this state with such low value that they could gain an economic advantage by dumping it on their local government entity for an undesireable park. Where did you get your information?

[McDave]

As I mentioned in my earlier post, during the recession that started in 2008, many CA state parks were closed. In the news media at the time, the reason given for closing some of the parks was as I stated above: the state and municipalities have, over the years, been the "beneficiaries" of various donations of land made under the provision that the land be used as a park or other public uses, and they weren't the ideal parcels of land CA would have chosen for that purpose anyway. In my former life as a CPA, I helped arrange several of these transfers, and they have been and probably will continue to be a popular topic in tax and estate planning seminars. The amount of charitable contribution deduction that one might receive for making such a donation is limited only by the amount one can convince a certified appraiser that the property is worth. I suspect in many cases this is higher than the actual amount the property would sell for in an arm's length transaction, since none of the parties to the donation are motivated to challenge a high appraisal.

I am reminded of the remark made by Capt Louis Renault in Casablanca, "I am shocked, shocked!, to find that gambling is going on in here!"


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[Jim & Susan]

Let's see if this will work.

Jim

[Ray Eklund]

The Wyoming Highway Department was very frugal at times. Any money saved from making contracts were used to pay for 'Rest Stops' and amenities. I suspect that other Western interior Rocky Mountains States do or did the same.

Kansas has wonderful Rest Stops. Utah has wonderful Rest Stops. Nebraska has wonderful Rest Stops.

Look folks. When you are married and have children... you know where every Rest Stop is located!

[jcanavera]

Originally Posted by Piggy Bank

Missouri has a great state park system. Here is why:

FUNDING FOR STATE PARK SYSTEM

The primary source of funding for the state park system is half of the dedicated constitutional tax of one-tenth-of-one-percent parks, soils and water sales tax, which provides about three-fourths of the division's budget for operation and development of state parks. All additional funding comes from revenues generated in the state park system and some federal funds.

The park, soils and water tax was created through a constitutional amendment and earmarked specifically for the state park system and efforts to stop soil erosion. The tax was first approved by voters in 1984, and has since been reapproved by voters three times in 1988, 1996 and 2006. Two-thirds of voters approved the tax the last three times, showing how much Missouri voters support their state park system.

More info can be found at:
https://mostateparks.com/page/55047/...te-park-system

I have to concur that the very small sales tax funding of the Missouri state parks has done wonders. What's interesting is that tax is not a forever tax and that it has to be approved by the voters and as noted above, has passed handily each time it comes up for renewal. At 1/10 of cent per dollar, it is really transparent. We are a traveler friendly state and contrary to some other state park systems there are no extra fees charged to non resident, park users.

Jack

[Jaxon]

Originally Posted by USAtraveler

I couldn't disagree more with GTOchucky. His unfounded anti-government diatribe is one of those things that make it more difficult for dedicated employees to get their jobs done effectively. Its no great revelation that parks..including national, state, and local parks have been dealing with limited budgets now for years. Those who keep demanding budget cuts because of their anti-government politics, then blame poor service on employees are being hypocritical at best. In my opinion, some of the hardest working and most dedicated government workers are the park employees I've encountered across our great nation. That they are able to keep parks operating without budget increases for years is testament IMO to their good work.
The title of Ken Burns 2009 TV documentary states it well: National Parks, Americas Best Idea. I would include state parks, local parks, national forest camps in that category, too. Anyone who has not seen the film should. As the inscription on the Roosevelt arch at Yellowstone states, For the Benefit and Enjoyment of the People. Our parks should not become the domain of private corporations. As the fiasco in Yosemite last year demonstrates...where a private corporation lost its concession but still claims it owns the names of iconic places in the park like the Ahwanhee Hotel...it is a slippery slope to give private, profit-making enterprise an entre to parks. Would you really be OK with changing the name of Yellowstone to Microsoft Meadows, Yosemite to Yahoo Acres, or the Grand Canyon to Facebook Funland? No thanks!
It's up to all of us who travel to and make use of our public lands to do our part to protect them and make sure they are indeed well maintained for the enjoyment of the people. That includes keeping pressure on our legislators at all levels to adequately fund parks. You can also volunteer as I do to work on park projects where help is sorely needed.

.
Amen!
.

[Boxite]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

The Wyoming Highway Department was very frugal at times. Any money saved from making contracts were used to pay for 'Rest Stops' and amenities. I suspect that other Western interior Rocky Mountains States do or did the same.

Kansas has wonderful Rest Stops. Utah has wonderful Rest Stops. Nebraska has wonderful Rest Stops.

Look folks. When you are married and have children... you know where every Rest Stop is located!

Now that Texas has become a (certain color politically)-state all the roadside rest stops are being closed, bulldozed and given away to adjacent landowners, and state parks, the ones not being closed, are crowded, under-maintained, with excessive fees and full reservation lists. The average family cannot enjoy/afford their pubic lands. The only state rest stops being kept open are the federally-assisted ones on Interstates, primarily for the benefit of the trucking industry.

Corporate mgmt. of public lands is a disaster in the making, and likely irreversible once the damage is done... the public will again have to pay to correct the misdeed.
I love America and so I pay my taxes. I expect better than privatization.

[Ray Eklund]

Something that will please everyone.

Crater of Diamonds State Park- Murfreesboro, Arkansas

craterofdiamonds@arkansas.com

Where else can you camp at a State Park, pay to get a lot of exercise and pocket a diamond or two as a reward! Camping is 25% off the $32 daily rate for those Golden Boys and Girls, with power options. Disability with proof... 100% discount. Arkansas residents over 50... 50% off.

Diamonds are found every day. Not by my group... but they announce the finds as they are brought into the office to be verified. 'Diamond Diggers' are inspired and become living gophers with the hope of a yellow gem worth selling to a former Governor of Arkansas.

Before going... understand what a diamond may look like... or see the displays inside. Tools to dig can be 'rented with a bucket' or bring your own tools like a professional, should do.

This is an example of a State Park that does not need to low ball their fees. People come to hit the jackpot, without the glitter of Las Vegas lights, using the working end of a handle.

There is plenty of blame to go around with financing and sources of revenue to support parks. You would be surprised how many elected officials do NOT know how to set up a tent, or own a travel trailer... or even camp out. Those who want to point fingers... look in your bathroom mirror.

There are Airforum Members I know who DO understand, as we have shared a campfire under the stars, or a muddy campsite in the rain, together. Campsites run the spectrum from outstanding to the privately held campsite outside Carlsbad Caverns. A true disgrace.

I worked for State and Federal government. I mildewed at a Corporate job. I enjoyed most of all... working for myself. Then I controlled the quality and customer service.

EACH park, no matter under whose management, should be taken as a case by case example. We are all temporary custodians of these places for rest and recreation from our normal lives. Be you normal, or outside of normal as myself... we all have opinions and I value each individuals right to tell us what they think. Those who take it personally, just lighten up a bit. Some of us understand there is some truth in all of our comments.

[Jim & Susan]

What a weird thread. Democrats, Republicans, Evil Corporations, Incompetent Government, Taxes. Texas is what color on that map? Maybe we need to find a way to inject Religion into the conversation....wait, I know........

Get out and enjoy God's Creation, wherever that is. He made it for US to ENJOY.

Your mileage may vary. Void where prohibited. Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.

PS: Yes, I agree with Ray's original point. As with many things tax payers think important, others don't. Oh, and my pet peeve? If the government has enough money to buy all those dang huge, expensive, unnecessary, gas guzzling SUV's with (normally) only one government employee riding around in it, then instead they should buy 'em Ford Focuses and use that money elsewhere. Maybe on the park system(s).

Just my opinion.

Jim

[USAtraveler]

Boxite: Now that Texas has become a (certain color politically)-state all the roadside rest stops are being closed, bulldozed and given away to adjacent landowners, and state parks, the ones not being closed, are crowded, under-maintained, with excessive fees and full reservation lists. The average family cannot enjoy/afford their pubic lands. The only state rest stops being kept open are the federally-assisted ones on Interstates, primarily for the benefit of the trucking industry.
Corporate mgmt. of public lands is a disaster in the making, and likely irreversible once the damage is done... the public will again have to pay to correct the misdeed.
I love America and so I pay my taxes. I expect better than privatization.

The conversion of public lands to private property in Texas as Boxite describes is indeed a sad state of affairs for all of us, campers, hikers, bikers and outdoorsmen alike, who enjoy the opportunity to get away occasionally from our busy urban/suburban neighborhoods or the packed-in density of most private campgrounds. Alarmingly, it may be a sign of more to come. The man who Trump would have as Interior Scty, Ryan Zinke, famously advocates turning over Federal lands, including parks, to each of the states in which the land is located. Yet they know full-well the states are more susceptible to the wants of powerful wealthy individuals and corporations who would take public lands for private use like mining or other commercial development.
As Teddy Roosevelt observed, "There are no words that can tell the hidden spirit of the wilderness, that can reveal its mystery, its melancholy, and its charm." During his presidency, Roosevelt helped protect over 230 million acres of public land. To have it disappear in cleverly devised schemes that enhance the fortunes of a few to the detriment of all other citizens is a sad end IMO to the amazing public lands legacy we so fortunately inherited from our forebears.
Again, in the words of Teddy Roosevelt, "We have fallen heirs to the most glorious heritage a people ever received, and each one must do his part if we wish to show that the nation is worthy of its good fortune."

[CDONA]

Quartermasters and Yuma Territorial Prison are both state parks taken over by the City of Yuma. Marketing to special events provides manicured upkeep for the facilities. Az. governor signed over a longer term lease because of the greenspace additions of Yuma and their successful marketing.