SOLAR or GENERATOR? One "SAVES" the environment and the other...?

[kscherzi]

A LED television doesn't require much power. Easily powered by a small inverter. Solar can supply plenty of recharge for losses incurred by a TV. Other than AC and microwave, batteries and solar can meet all other normal demands. My inverter even powers a power drill and a 5 gallon air compressor, probably not a high current tool like my circular and rip saw. Still looking for a generator that's not heavy and powers a 15,000 btu AC.

[urnmor]

Ray well said

[Ray Eklund]

After camped at the Lake Meade Campsite out of Boulder City, Nevada for several weeks, not having solar is noticeable, compared to our less than optimum 2006 23 footer with maybe a factory installed 80 watt system. At least the solar panel did maintain a reliable recharging during the day of our minimum power usage after sunset. Mostly one bulb of light so my wife could read. My listening to the radio, IF reception was possible with the antenna that is standard with Airstreams AND the fan that cools the coils for the refrigerator. Taking a shower was out of the question, unless hooked up to the tow vehicle.

The Honda generator did provide powering these options at 45 minute run times to maintain the batteries. To even use minimum 12 volt power, we could not depend on the generator to provide a full charge for three or more days. The debate becomes the cost of solar versus the inconvenience of ten minutes to hook and unhook the generator.

When tent camping with 110v power at a camp site, we had the 110volt coffee pot sitting on the picnic table with an extension cord to the tent. In the morning we would plug the coffee pot into the extension cord from a window portal and presto... hot coffee. So, it is a very difficult decision to spend the money for a Solar System when our camping options use to be... this fresh coffee in the morning.

Am I now become jaded? It is still a struggle to find confidence in a RV Dealer and their sales pitch and cost varying faster than the DOW Jones Industrials. Eventually, this walking the line will come to a conclusion. Lewster is one person I have confidence in his opinion. Just a reliable output for our frugal needs, plus a percentage to keep our batteries charged.

[kscherzi]

During the day I can run both fantastic fans and still see a decent charge going into the batteries. This assumes full sun. But if it's not sunny probably not running the fans anyway. Not familiar with a refrigerator fan, mine doesn't have one I think. It's odd how your battery runs dry with so little being used.

I don't own a generator so making the solar decision was a littler easier. Sounds like solar for you is a matter of more convenience. A nice byproduct of solar is the batteries are always fully charged before every camping trip.

[Ray Eklund]

kscherzi: It's odd how your battery runs dry with so little being used.
*****
We have a volt meter and maybe that is what catches my attention. When the Honda is idling, 13.2v to 13.4 from the 20 amp side of it. I will be getting the attachment to the 26 amp connection before this next camping trip. No one has mentioned if there is a difference as far as the Interstate Marine AGM sealed battery recharge and performance, either way. Someone might know and explain how this works.

When the generator is disconnected or shut down, I am looking at 11.8v to 11.3v after using battery power. Our lights and fans are not affected by this voltage, but the water pump runs slower while on battery. With the Honda, the water pump sounds totally different and runs at a higher RPM.

Without a volt meter reading, maybe I am just being to cautious not to run the batteries down below 11.0 volts.

Am I being too concerned, or not? The original batteries, after being charged with the Honda, would be in the 9.2v to 9.5v by morning, not really using them during the evenings. Each day I recorded the consistent drop in voltage with minimal use.

Interstate Batteries determined a possible weak/dead cell was draining both. For a modest extra cost I was given Marine AGM sealed batteries and am currently using them.

If they are 12.0 volt and I am in the 12.3 to 12.8 volt range... is that optimum? When should I be hooking up the Honda and charge the batteries?

I have read on the Forum that the Tow Vehicle connection does not do much as far as charging the trailer's batteries. Then get the idea that even the Honda directly connected to the trailer requires time... Somewhere there is a basic understanding of what is accurate information. I sure am not the source for anything concerning the Honda, the Tow vehicle and a volt range of the trailer batteries that are acceptable before a charge.

Any help out there?

[kscherzi]

What I've heard about lead acid batteries is they should be kept as fully charged as possible all the time for longest life. Keeping voltage above 12 volts (approx 50% charge) at all time is most desirable. Somewhere on the internet (and it never lies) I read that going below 10.5 volts will likely result in permanent damage. Especially if not immediately recharged. It's takes my trailer about 3 days of no sun from full charge to drop below 50% in normal use (lights, TV, radio, heater, shower). In full sun the solar system will do a full recharge in about 4 hours.

If your batteries are reading 9 volts they're likely done for. Check AM Solar online for cost of their self install solar packages. Start with at least 200 watts. If you don't feel comfortable doing this then a couple thousand dollars to have someone qualified put their packaged system into your trailer seems a sensible starting point for a budget of such a project. Don't forget, you might be able to get a federal tax credit for the solar system if your trailer qualifies.

[paiceman]

I was involved in the golf cart business for a long time - 10,000 golf cars per year new, about the same used. About 60% were electric - four 12v deep cycle lead acid batteries. Which are the same as in the AS trailers we all have today. We kept these batteries alive for up to four years and sometimes longer by essentially taking them down to zero with a discharge machine every fall (we operated our business in the north) and then immediately charging them back up again to full charge which is anywhere between 12.3 and 14v depending on age and the meter one is using. Then in the spring, back on a new charge and out to play golf all season. These needed to be watered so the level had to be checked weekly and properly filled.

If the battery goes down below the 9 volt level it probably will not operate anything in your unit, but can be brought back to life if it has not frozen, once frozen they are done for.

Now as a caveat to all this, lead acid deep cycle batteries like to be charged, love to be charged, so the more one charges them the better. Drain them and charge them, they last a long time.

That's about it, pretty simple, keep in mind we had responsibility for over 52,000 batteries a year so there was a little experience and history to go by here. The technology has not changed, the AGI battery right now is far superior and in my (our) opinion well worth the money, we have them in our AS.

[Ray Eklund]

OK. I am denser than the Universe BEFORE the Big Bang when it comes to electricity in the trailer.

On home 120volt the trailer voltage meter is reading 13.6 volts. If it is a 12 volt system, why does the system read 13.6 volts?

If I disconnect the 120 volt from the outlet, I am reading 13.3 volts.

How can 12 volt batteries display MORE than 12 volts? Nothing is operating or turned on, just reading the meter.

Do 12 volt batteries like mine, AGM Marine Interstate, discharge 13.3 volts and then after using them... drop below 12 volts and, from my first watching voltages when off the grid, the voltages seem to hover in the 11.3 to 11.5 range with the refrigerator cooling fan usually running and maybe one LED light, and occasionally the water pump running for filling drinking water bottles and modest use, otherwise.

paiceman and kscherzi... Can you explain to an ignorant 12 volt person how this all works? Is an IGA battery superior to an AGM Marine battery? Interstate sales people said this was the best they had... to offer me. Was I a Stooge in this deal, too?

[Boxite]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

OK. I am denser than the Universe BEFORE the Big Bang when it comes to electricity in the trailer.

On home 120volt the trailer voltage meter is reading 13.6 volts. If it is a 12 volt system, why does the system read 13.6 volts?

If I disconnect the 120 volt from the outlet, I am reading 13.3 volts.

How can 12 volt batteries display MORE than 12 volts? Nothing is operating or turned on, just reading the meter.

Do 12 volt batteries like mine, AGM Marine Interstate, discharge 13.3 volts and then after using them... drop below 12 volts and, from my first watching voltages when off the grid, the voltages seem to hover in the 11.3 to 11.5 range with the refrigerator cooling fan usually running and maybe one LED light, and occasionally the water pump running for filling drinking water bottles and modest use, otherwise.

paiceman and kscherzi... Can you explain to an ignorant 12 volt person how this all works? Is an IGA battery superior to an AGM Marine battery? Interstate sales people said this was the best they had... to offer me. Was I a Stooge in this deal, too?

I'll take a shot at this:

FIrst of all... VOLTAGE is like water PRESSURE.
AMPERAGE is like GALLONS OF WATER.
WATTs is like GALLONS per minute AT a certain PRESSURE (i.e., it's a measure of WORK capability)

(A simple algebra equation explaning it is Volts times AMPs equals WATTS.
This is similar to 10 psi of water-pressure being applied to a 20 gallon container of water producing 2 gallons per minute at an average pressure of 2 psi. ( I made that example up as an illustration.)

Although we refer to the common auto battery as TWELVE volts...that's a NOMINAL value...it can hold 12...or 13.7... or 11.5 or... you get the picture... And when we re-charge it...we "pump" more than 12 volts into it (think of "speeding" up the recharge process... or blowing up a balloon... if a balloon has 12 psi in it..how can you charge it up MORE unless you put MORE than 12 psi into it?) TYPICALLY A 12 VOLT BATTERY IS ACTUALLY RECHARGED AT ALMOST 14 VOLTS. And as such, it will hold 13+ volts when completely charged. (the balloon is blown up tightly)

When the balloon is LESS than full...it may still have some air in it...but it will not expel it sufficiently to feel it very much. That is like a DIS-charged battery (say down around 10 or 11 volts.)

Get it? VOLTS is like PRESSURE. To FILL the battery with volts you must put MORE into it than it's NOMINAL rating.

[lewster]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

OK. I am denser than the Universe BEFORE the Big Bang when it comes to electricity in the trailer.

On home 120volt the trailer voltage meter is reading 13.6 volts. If it is a 12 volt system, why does the system read 13.6 volts?

If I disconnect the 120 volt from the outlet, I am reading 13.3 volts.

How can 12 volt batteries display MORE than 12 volts? Nothing is operating or turned on, just reading the meter.

Do 12 volt batteries like mine, AGM Marine Interstate, discharge 13.3 volts and then after using them... drop below 12 volts and, from my first watching voltages when off the grid, the voltages seem to hover in the 11.3 to 11.5 range with the refrigerator cooling fan usually running and maybe one LED light, and occasionally the water pump running for filling drinking water bottles and modest use, otherwise.

paiceman and kscherzi... Can you explain to an ignorant 12 volt person how this all works? Is an IGA battery superior to an AGM Marine battery? Interstate sales people said this was the best they had... to offer me. Was I a Stooge in this deal, too?

Ray,

Do you have your original Parallax converter? If so, the reading that you are seeing (13.6VDC) is the only voltage that your converter puts into the batteries. 12VDC is called the 'nominal' rating. Almost any '12VDC' battery that actually measures 12.0VDC is well on it's way to complete discharge. Depending on the battery manufacturer specifications, a 'full' battery with 100% charge can vary from 12.7VDC (Interstate liquid cells) up to 13.2-13.4VDC (Lifeline AGM batteries).

There are definite and specific differences in battery construction and the amount of lead that is used in their manufacture. I have weighed different batteries within the same group category and have seen marked in the weight of the batteries, even though they are 'rated' to be the same. Take a group 27 battery. The Interstate liquid lead acid battery is rated at 100 amp/hours of capacity at the industry standard 20 hour discharge rate. A Lifeline AGM group 27 battery is also rated at 100 amp/hours.

The Interstate weighs about 50 lbs, where the Lifeline weighs 65 lbs. Why the difference? It's in the amount of lead that is used in the battery construction. More lead gives you more usable energy!

The other problem is the huge amount of bull pucky that most folks in the battery industry throw at the customers. It's almost as bad as buying a used car!!!!! One of the biggest myths is the 'deep cycle/marine' battery. These are made for starting an outboard engine AND for operating running lights and instruments on a boat. They are a hybrid; neither true deep cycle nor true starting battery.

You need a true DEEP CYCLE battery for RV use, as these will show the most capacity for the slow, controlled discharge that is prevalent in RVs. I generally use Lifeline batteries exclusively in my solar installations, as they have proven themselves over time to have the most energy density and longevity in the AGM battery category. I won't get into the new lithium cells here, but they far exceed the capacities and life span of AGMs at about 1/3 the weight and twice the price. Over the long run (10-15 year anticipated life span), they prove themselves to be the best battery value, but they are a significant up-front cost.

Back to your problem: your batteries should not be discharged much below 50% (12.1 VDC for Interstates) on a regular basis. 11.3-11.5VDC is getting very close to a totally dead battery. The more you discharge to this extremely low level, the fewer charge cycles your battery will have.

More importantly, your 13.6VDC converter is also ruining your batteries in the following way: ALL lead acid deep cycle batteries require 3 stage charging at voltage set-points formulated by the individual battery manufacturers. For Lifelines (the batteries I use most) they require a BULK charge of 14.2-14.4 VDC, an ABSORPTION charge of 14.2-14.4 VDC and a FLOAT charge of 13.2-13.4VDC. (These are measured at 77ºF).

As you can see from the charge levels above, 13.6VDc will never completely fill your batteries and if they DO get fully charged, they will be continually OVERCHARGED because they will never see the 13.2. VDC that they require as a maintenance charge.

Unfortunately, battery charging and maintenance is a technical subject that can become rather complex. Some folks just ignore all of the above and buy the cheapest batteries they can find and replace them often. Others spend thousands of dollars on solar, lithium batteries and sophisticated charging systems because they never want to think about their battery health, don't want to deal with any type of maintenance issues and want to be certain that they can fully depend on their batteries and charging systems. It all depends on what you want from your camping experience and what kind of reliability you want from your battery system.

[kscherzi]

Before going further I have to qualify myself as amateur hobbyist, not a battery professional. Some of this I just pulled off the internet.

A typical fully charged "12 volt" lead acid battery will actually supply 12.6 to 12.8 volts. In your case your batteries are supplying 13.3 when fully charged. Maybe this is the case with AGM's.

All batteries have some amount of internal resistance. So to get the battery up to its fully charge state a voltage equal to is full state (12.6 to 12.8 volts) plus an amount to overcome the internal resistance has to be applied to the battery. This is why, when plugged into shore power, you see a higher voltage like 13.6 or higher.

It's normal for battery voltage to drop when other things are also drawing power. Think of a battery like a water pump. When a water pump is running and no valves are open the pressure will be high. If the yard sprinklers are turned on the house water pressure will be somewhat lower until they turn off. Most 12 volt appliances are designed to operate within a range of voltage, typically from around 11 to 14 volts.

I hope this helps.

[Ray Eklund]

Thank you all for making this easier to understand.

The 2014 trailer has the original equipment and converter.

I am going to keep a notebook of voltages while camped off the grid and what 12 volt users were in use. When at a campground without electrical hookups, it will be interesting for my curiosity, what others are finding. Many trailers do not have volt readings inside the trailer, so have to "guess". Ours is located with the Fresh, Grey and Black water digital readings.... which at times can be rather variable in reliable percentages.

Our original batteries in the 2006 Safari, with a small Airstream installed at the factory solar panel, were purring along 8 years and going strong. It does get one to rethink having a passive solar panel working without getting much credit for the benefits being supplied keeping the batteries charged.

After a week or more Off the Grid, there would be a slow decline in voltage as indicated by the meter in the 2006 Safari. This solar panel might have been 80 watts. I never did find a brochure about it with my trailer manuals. But it worked. I cannot imagine a 160 watt solar panel recharging during the day, with LED lights and the refrigerator fan running on the 2014.

I hope others have benefited through my ignorance of batteries and solar panels.

[Rhino33]

We have been considering both the Honda generator and a portable solar kit, as neither of us have the desire to try to install a permanently mounted system on our 1980. Thank you to everyone who has contributed on this thread, as it gives us a lot of food for thought on both.

We enjoy boon docking and use our A/C or furnace rarely. No microwave or coffee makers, though periodically the TV is nice.

However - our International has only one battery (which we replaced with a marine deep cell last year). Would it be an option to add a second battery and somehow link it to our first? There is space for a second next to the first under the front seating, but we would rather not have to cut into the skin to install a battery door/compartment to do so.

Thoughts/suggestions?

[urnmor]

I just spent 5 days at Assateque National Park and did not use our generators. We strickly used solar and propane I used the propane for the stove, refrigerator and the hot water heater everything else like the lights, and fans used the batteries. I used the inverters to charge our phone, Iwatch, Ipad and Bose portable speakers. I also sed the inverter plug for my sleep apnea machine. In the morning when I checked we had anywhere fro 60 to 80% left on the reading. Because the sun was shining the reading went back to hundred by 9/10 AM

Now I was also more conscious of the fact that I was not using the generator so I was more conservetive then other times. For instance because of the wind I did not use the fantastic fans 24 7 as they were not needed.

[Ray Eklund]

Solar or Generator?

After Boondocking for two years and testing the Honda to charge my AGM batteries and depending on the tow vehicle to charge my AGM batteries... I have come to a final conclusion which of these two options best serve my best interests:

SOLAR

I plan to have one or two 100 watt panels installed on my 25 footer as soon as we get to Tucson, Arizona in February 2017 for the Tucson Rock Show. The new Airstream dealer had a better price than our local dealer and I liked how they operated.

The Honda is not passive. It requires fuel, hauling it around, setting it up, have it purr on the tailgate of the pickup... and just is not... convenient.

After watching the five Solar Panels on Forum Member VeeVee's 27 footer and her liberal use of ceiling fans and lights... I would have to be insane not to see that SOLAR is much more convenient and works for you 24 hours a day.

Yeah... 24 hours... in Alaska. Maybe 20 hours, but those glimmers of light for four hours might count.

I can understand why Lewster is so busy.

Solar prices are a better value today and the Honda has been holding its own as far as retail price. With that thought... I feel better and this decision cost me $849.99 plus sales tax. That is a lot of double cheeseburgers, fries and a Cokes with no ice! (NO ice... Ice is profit in the fountain business.)

[FCStreamer]

I for one won't camp without a 50amp connection. I need those two ACs on high. Anything less wouldn't be civilized...for me.

[switz]

We were able, after removing the crank up Winegard television antenna and installing their round Rayzar auto tune television antenna, to install five AM Solar 100 watt panels on the roof of our 2015 23D International Serenity that charge a 300 amp hour lithium battery located under the sofa just in front of the wheel well. We take a GenConneX propane conversion 2000 watt Honda generator along and with the Magnum hybrid MSH-3012 inverter can run the air conditioner off grid. Otherwise, the solar system has no issues powering the Vitrifrigo 12Vdc Danfoss freon based compressor to keep the food cold plus any other stuff inside the coach

Our 2014 31' Classic currently has eight AM Solar 100 watt panels on the roof and with the MagnumMS-2812 inverter and 600 amp hour lithium battery can actually run either of the two air conditioners during a rest stop. Since we have the space in the back of the truck, we carry the matched pair of Honda 2000 watt generators (both have the propane conversion) and a 30 pound propane tank. That covers the bases for us.

We are about to convert to a Vitrifrigo refrigerator in the Classic as well along with a Dometic CU-434 stove upgrade next month (October 2016) and replace the Fantastic Fan that has their bulbous cover with a Maxxfan 7000K unit like we installed on the 23D.

[BoldAdventure]

I've been living off of solar power for a year and a couple of months. You'll never convince me to go back. Period. Ever.

[IanPoulin]

... tangent, but semi-relevant ...

During college spring break 1991, we convinced a "sheltered" friend of our to come camping in the inner gorge of the Grand Canyon. a full days hike down Tanner, to the campsites at the Colorado river, setup camp, went swimming came back for to prepare dinner. Then our friend pulled a hair dryer out of his pack and asked where he could plug in.

The trip sorta went downhill from there.

Anytime my airstream is plugged into the mains, it aint camping .

Thanks for all the advice in the thread on portable panels. I've been mulling all my options of recent, including a professional roof install. I believe I may now have another viable option.

[Gearheart]

My take on the matter is this. In Canada we get no rebate or tax relief for going solar. The 2 @ 40 watts solar panels that I tried to run on the Wyoming trip were not up to the task but cost me $150 each plus taxes total outlay of $339. My 3500 watt genny cost me $250 used no tax. It burned 2 gallons of gas in the 10 days we were camping. 500 watts of solar plus 2 AGM batteries would run me about $2500 plus 13% sales tax. I can buy a lot of gasoline for that coin.