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Old 12-23-2010, 09:01 PM   #43
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this is the airstream fourm i think , i better run a virus check.
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Old 12-23-2010, 09:40 PM   #44
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I like to take a poll. Is there anybody in the USA not armed and carrying a gun. It sure makes me glad I'm on this side of the border. I've followed plenty of these types of threads and I shudder at the thought of every trailer in the campgrounds loaded to the teeth.
Never once in my life have I felt the need to carry a gun nor have I ever got into a situation that I would have needed one.
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Old 12-23-2010, 10:13 PM   #45
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wasagachris... You would be very surprised to know how many Canadians are "packing heat" too! I am a hunter, and used to shoot competition events, and I am constantly surprised by how many Canucks own firearms. I often camp in very remote country with grizzlies and cougars. I keep a 12 gauge coach gun and a 45-70 Guides rifle in the trailer. Don't worry though, you won't ever see them unless you break in and somehow make it past the 3 doggies!

I don't think it is a big deal discussing self defense. It is, as previously stated, unlikely that one should ever need to use a weapon, but, "it is better to have and not need, than need and not have". Same theory works for wine!
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Old 12-23-2010, 10:20 PM   #46
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I do not own a gun, because I feel safe without one. I am, however, comfortable with their possession by other people, and familiar with their use.
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Old 12-23-2010, 10:44 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airtandem View Post
But there is a new kid on the block and that is a can of Wasp spray. the spray will reach out about 30 feet and is effective against most prowlers ie people, dogs, bears etc. A shot to the face will do the job, it will temp blind and also cause respiratory problems. Saw this on a survival show. Also one doesn't have to consider the laws of the land.
I thought about your advice for awhile. At first it seemed plausible and convenient. You could leave a can setting within arms reach on a counter top and it would not cause trouble in the way that leaving a firearm could. You could imagine that a solid squirt in the eyes could be debilitating.

However, you can not accurately aim a squirt at 30'. You would have to start spraying then move to get on target. During that time, your assailant could turn his head or throw up a hand to shield his eyes. Now you may have converted someone that just wanted to rob you into someone that wants to kill you.
I think this is not good advice.
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Old 12-23-2010, 11:45 PM   #48
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Whether we were camping at a campground or boondocking with the Airstream, Sunline and Streamline, I always had my SigPro 2340 with me. 20 years in the Army has been a great teacher; 3 years in Special Forces was even better. I don't aim for center mass, I aim for the head; the bad guy might have a vest on, and I don't want to waste the bullets finding out whether he does or doesn't.

I agree that, if you have not taken some form of weapons training, you have no business carrying. The other thing to remember is that, once you pull that weapon from its holster, you squeeze the trigger....not at the floor, not at the roof, but at the bad guy's head...if you can't pull that trigger, then you have no business carrying either.

While pepper spray or any other spray might work most of the time as a deterrent, it will NOT stop someone who wants to hurt you or work on the bad guy who took PCP...it will probably just make him really really mad and you'll be really really dead, which is another reason to shoot him in the head.

A friend of mine, who is a retired Maryland State Trooper, once responded to a call of a man on a shooting spree. Five troopers responded in all. The man turned and began firing on the troopers. They returned fire and filled him with 39 rounds, 16 of which were lethal. The only reason the man stopped shooting was because he ran out of bullets. He threw his weapon down and rushed the troopers. It took all five of the troopers to take him down and subdue him. He died in the hospital three hours later, once the PCP had worn off.

Will you ever encounter a situation like that while camping? Hopefully not, however Sherri and I did have an encounter, when we were staying at a campground that was having its grand opening in Moss Landing, CA in 2002. In the middle of the night we were woken up to screaming and pounding. The next thing I knew, the bathroom window of our Class C was shattered, then the pounding began at our door. Our neighbor, who had a gun, fired. It was enough to scare the guy away; the cops found him a half hour later, still high as a kite.

I bought my Sig the next week and have never regretted it one bit. the .40 caliber has enough stopping power to do its job well. on edit: The safety, btw, is your trigger finger.
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Old 12-24-2010, 12:19 AM   #49
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Interesting thread, and most people are glossing over the first step: risk assessment. Where are you , what are the risks, how to deal with them. There are neighborhoods I do not drive through, regardless of what I may be carrying.

There is always the threat of random incidents, as Stingray just posted about Moss Landing, and then a next decision: if the loony guy is pounding on your door, how do you deal with it? If he is inside trying to pound on you, its a different situation.

Randomness happens. Each of us has to decide what the likelihood is, the possible seriousness of it, then prepare to deal with it. Here in CA I have earthquake kits in each car, in the house, and of course my house on wheels for the big one.

I agree with many: take training and get practice, and do frequent practice. if you draw it, plan to use it.

I am not an expert, but my uneducated view is that a 22 rifle is about the worst choice: hard to handle and no stopping power. "Hold on, my long barrel just got caught up in the bedding. There, now its untangled and I can try and point it at...oh, I see you already here helping me with the bedsheet tangle." And a .22? Like trying to tow with a Miata.
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Old 12-24-2010, 12:34 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by wasagachris View Post
I like to take a poll. Is there anybody in the USA not armed and carrying a gun. It sure makes me glad I'm on this side of the border. I've followed plenty of these types of threads and I shudder at the thought of every trailer in the campgrounds loaded to the teeth.
Never once in my life have I felt the need to carry a gun nor have I ever got into a situation that I would have needed one.
Wasn't it just recently that a Canadian up in Alberta (if I remember correctly) used a pistol (illegal in Canada) to kill several people. Oh, I remember, they don't publish that kind if information in Canada; wouldn't want to upset the public. No point in letting the people in Canada know that Canadian criminals have illegal weapons just as they do in the US. There was another incident where a Canadian killed a couple of Canadians with a knife; maybe Canada should outlaw knifes. BTW, I was born in Vancouver, BC.

There is a reason for a Constitutional right to own a gun in the US, just read the Declaration of Independence. Furthermore, outlawing guns will only insure that just the criminals have guns. If they can smuggle tons of illegal drugs into a country, it should be easy to smuggle weapons into a country.
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Old 12-24-2010, 01:05 AM   #51
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We have 2 dogs that keep us on the alert in the AS. We occaisionally keep our shotguns with us for trap shooting etc...

Not a big fan of a firearm in the AS due to close quarters. Tactical tomahawk does some serious damage if needed. Also makes short work of tree limbs and makes a useful punching tool.

Home defense is another matter. Dualing .38 specials are handy for post hurricane lawlessness. Always has surprised me how freaked out and desperate people get when tropical weather hits.
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Old 12-24-2010, 04:39 AM   #52
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Risks and Countermeasures

Comments by PJohnson and Stingray L82 are both well considered. There are several elements that MUST be considered if one is to succeed at personal/family protection while camping. Failure to take ALL of these into consideration can result in the injury or death of innocent people.


- Understanding Risk: Risk = Threat * Probability * Vulnerability
- Understand what you have to lose (Asset Analysis):
- People: You, your Family, your Campsite Neighbors, Nearby Persons and the Criminal(s)
- Property (Economic Assets): The Airstream and its contents + Wallets and their contents + TV and its contents
- Proprietary Information: Your Identification Papers, Credit Cards and any Financial or Medical Records
- Your Reputation and Personal Freedom: Jail is no fun, prison is worse

Understand the Threats (Threat Analysis): There are four types of Threat Actors (terrorists, economic criminals, violent criminals and petty criminals). Forget about terrorists. So far they have shown no interests in campgrounds. Focus on ODC (ordinary decent criminals).
- Economic Criminals: Opportunistic Crimes vs. Planned and Executed Crimes
- Violent Criminals: Domestic Violence (overspill onto your RV space), Drug Related (StingrayL82’s story is unfortunately not uncommon), Psychiatric (you’d be surprised what a schizophrenic is capable of), workplace violence (angry current or ex-employee of the campground) and rage inspired violence (once rage begins, it will be spent on anyone nearby)
- Petty Criminals: Tagging, vandalism, etc.

Understand your Vulnerabilities:
- Are you close to neighbors or isolated?
- You do not have a robust structure around you.
- You or your family members or pets may be inside or outside your Airstream.
- What is your training level on weapons? (don’t use against a human unless you are very well trained)
- What is your determination to fire upon another human?
- What is your physical condition, size, etc.?
- Do not risk ANYONE’s life for any property. (Exception, if the threat actor has broken into an occupied coach, it is not unreasonable to assume a threat to life.)

Effective Countermeasures:
- All countermeasures should be layered: Deter, detect, assess, respond, gather/provide evidence.
- Economic Criminals and Petty Criminals: Keep doors locked, keep valuables out of sight, keep wallets, purses, etc. in a locked location (some keep “dummy” wallets or a small wad of $1 bills in a quickly findable location. Keep lights on all night around the coach.
- Violent Criminals: Keep doors locked. Keep lights on all night around the coach. Avoid confrontation if possible. If confronted (directly, not through the wall) quickly assess the threat (How many threat actors? Weapons? Show of determination? Are they inside the coach? If inside, Its best to assume the worst.) If your or your family’s life is threatened, it is not unreasonable to respond with deadly force. While some people believe that one warning shot to the base of the skull is appropriate, I have a blank loaded as the top shell (hence one warning shot with no possible damage to the coach or undesired penetration thru to innocents outside. Alternatively, cock the round by sliding the bolt back.) Then you can allow precisely second before the second shot which should be to center mass (if you can determine that no armor is worn) or to the head (if there is a question about armor). Allow just enough time to determine if the threat actor is continuing or retreating. If retreating, good, if not, then fire and do not miss. Missing carries the potential for injuries or death of innocents. If shooting center mass, fire a minimum of two rounds. Use a weapon that is large enough to stop and take down the intruder with a single shot (any .40, or .45 will do). For persons having difficulty with above weapons, consider a 9mm or .38. Regarding dogs for personal protection the following applies: A dog must be large enough to take down the offender to be effective. Barking is a deterrent, fangs on a neck is an actual threat-action counter-measure. Just like you with a weapon, a dog should be trained for personal protection so that he/she is not a potential liability. Understand that any threat/countermeasure response cycle using deadly force will be a permanent burning memory for all involved.
- Petty Criminals: Configure the coach for natural surveillance by nearby neighbors, not hidden from them.

Nothing is worth an innocent life. It is imperative to understand local laws regarding personal protection. However, nothing is worth losing your family’s life. I will not pontificate about the merits of use of force. It is a matter for personal decision and each decision is appropriate for that person. However, one must consider the possible unintended consequences (bullets fly through RVs like butter).

The author is an international security and anti-terrorism consultant working primarily in regions of conflict, and author of “Risk Analysis and Security Countermeasure Selection”, “Integrated Security System Design” and “Security Planning and Design” (American Institute of Architects).
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Old 12-24-2010, 04:46 AM   #53
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Wasn't it just recently that a Canadian up in Alberta (if I remember correctly) used a pistol (illegal in Canada) to kill several people. Oh, I remember, they don't publish that kind if information in Canada; wouldn't want to upset the public. No point in letting the people in Canada know that Canadian criminals have illegal weapons just as they do in the US. There was another incident where a Canadian killed a couple of Canadians with a knife; maybe Canada should outlaw knifes. BTW, I was born in Vancouver, BC.

There is a reason for a Constitutional right to own a gun in the US, just read the Declaration of Independence. Furthermore, outlawing guns will only insure that just the criminals have guns. If they can smuggle tons of illegal drugs into a country, it should be easy to smuggle weapons into a country.
You know I was hesitant to post in this thread fearing the responses I would get. This is exactly the type of response I was concerned about.

BTW yes they do publish information about crimes here. The reason you don't hear about it much is because they don't occur as often. Your comments are just inane. We as a country and myself as an individual are concerned about violence and crime. The point is it is all too easy to squeeze the trigger and kill someone in a moment of anger. If you remove the ready access to guns then you remove the ability for this situation to occur.

I don't want to argue your constitution. However the statistics tell a different story regarding the relationship between gun control and crime.
Murders (per capita) statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

DEATH BY MURDER

Gun Facts

Now don't pull out your gun and start shooting at me just because we have a difference of opinion. There was no need for your sarcastic
and hostile response. I for one am glad you live where you do. Please don't post a response I do not wish to hear your response. Thank you for your opinion and enjoy your life.
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Old 12-24-2010, 05:45 AM   #54
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I would bet that America has more psychologically unbalanced people per capita than Canada.

I have never owned a gun, but am increasingly becoming convinced that having one is prudent (what would Bush 41 do?).
It is hard to picture myself as a gun owner, but there is a lot more to it (as described above) than just having a weapon.

In my personal experience, self defense is a mindset, and requires practice.

Some years ago I started training in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I just did it as a sport. I hadn't been in a fight since I was in the 5th grade, I think, and had never been in a situation since then where I felt that anything like that was necessary. There is a lot more to it than that though.

Over time and as I learned and practiced the techniques and competed, I noticed a change in my psychology. I hadn't noticed how nervous I had become in many physical situations.. ruffians on the corner at the Quickie Mart, or guys walking around with their arms all bowed out forcing you to step aside as they came through.. strange people staring at me.. whatever..
This nervousness disappeared.
It is confidence.

Having the tools and the ability and willingness to use them has effects beyond any actual incident that may or may not occur.
Bad guys definitely note how you react to things.

Guns are a whole nuther thing though, but as I contemplate the itinerant/nomadic lifestyle and my sense that there are a lot of off-kilter people out there.. I think a necessity.
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Old 12-24-2010, 06:50 AM   #55
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Ok everyone else has put in I may as well. Nothing will protect your family and property like a gun, no can of bug spray could ever stop me and I don't consider myself to be a tuff guy.
About dogs, yeah that's a great defense but not against someone the dogs know and are comfortables around.
Stickers that say NRA, another bad idea, a friend of mine is an NRA shooting instructor and drives a white truck, a crazy ex of the girls my friend was seeing drove to all the gun ranges till he found the truck and busted out all the window, he had seen the normal looking truck at the girls house but could track the truck by it's sticker. Also the sticker says one thing to criminal when your not the ( NRA we have guns break in and find them).
Education and awareness are great, you can't stop a lunatic with reason.
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Old 12-24-2010, 07:44 AM   #56
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The only time I bring protection is when we are boon docking. Where we boon dock I feel it is necessary. Two reasons

Our property is loaded with coyotes and our dogs are small. I see the coyote prints by our pond and Coyote feces right where we camp. I know it is unusal they will attack a dog, but I do know approximately where their den is. I hear the pups yipping all the time. Especially when the train comes through. If Coyotes feel their pups are in danger they will attack dogs. I keep my dogs close to us but we do have them off the leach so they can enjoy the open country.

We have a neighbor relatively close by and he sees the coyotes all the time. His dog is a monster and that dog will go after the coyotes. My dogs would not know how to handle themselves if attacked.


2nd reason is young guys have showed up on our property unannounced before. The last time they told me they were given permission by the owner. I informed them I was the owner. They looked really rough and they Knew they had no business on the property. I have no tresspassing signs every where. I was not worried at the time, but they could tell we were camping and I not wanting them to show back up at night.

Brian
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