Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-15-2015, 11:34 AM   #29
Rivet Master
 
SteveSueMac's Avatar

 
2012 27' Flying Cloud
W , New England
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,410
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoldAdventure View Post
OMG YES! This is my biggest internet pet peeve. Inserting opinion without reading the discussion before giving said opinion to ensure it was on topic.



Yeah, but imagine being Lew and having to repeat yourself all the time. Or being Lew and being called Lester. Man - that's enough to start its own thread!

;-)

(Yes, I'm being a wise guy...hope that was obvious...)
__________________

__________________
SteveSueMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2015, 03:00 PM   #30
Rivet Slave
 
Rocinante's Avatar

 
2014 27' FB International
Western WA , Washington
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,440
Blog Entries: 49
Very helpful topic, thanks Lew and Sal. I'm now convinced that if / when we switch to AGM batteries, we'll also be swapping out our relatively new PD 4655 for a Magnum converter/inverter. Thank you for this point of clarity regarding the insufficiency of the smart PD4655 when it comes to the proper care and feeding of AGM batteries. Somehow that point had not previously clicked for me.
__________________

__________________
Rocinante is our 2014 International Signature 27FB
(Named for John Steinbeck's camper from "Travels With Charley")


Rocinante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2015, 07:08 PM   #31
Rivet Master
Commercial Member
 
lewster's Avatar
 
Vintage Kin Owner
Naples, FL , Hood River, OR
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocinante View Post
Very helpful topic, thanks Lew and Sal. I'm now convinced that if / when we switch to AGM batteries, we'll also be swapping out our relatively new PD 4655 for a Magnum converter/inverter. Thank you for this point of clarity regarding the insufficiency of the smart PD4655 when it comes to the proper care and feeding of AGM batteries. Somehow that point had not previously clicked for me.
Don't want to be picky, but that's inverter/charger
__________________
Lew Farber...ABYC Certified Master Marine Electrician...RVIA Certified Master Tech ...AM Solar Authorized Installation Center...AIRSTREAM Solar & Electrical Specialist...Micro Air 'Easy Start' Sales and Installations
lewster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2015, 08:20 PM   #32
3 Rivet Member
 
TheCabin's Avatar
 
2013 25' FB International
Liberty Corner , New Jersey
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 188
Is it just Airstream or do all Thor Ind. RVs use single stage chargers?
__________________
TheCabin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2015, 09:42 PM   #33
3 Rivet Member
 
TheCabin's Avatar
 
2013 25' FB International
Liberty Corner , New Jersey
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 188
I have been looking over the manual for the MMS and it does appear to be very good at providing both the ac inversion and an excellent battery charger (which is what I really want). Does anyone know if it is a simple plug-in to its remote control port (RJ-11 connector) of the existing cable coming from the stock wfco inverter control switch installed on the AS? The standards involved in rv electronics appear to be somewhat of the wild west at this time.
__________________
TheCabin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2015, 11:13 PM   #34
Rivet Master
 
1974 Argosy 20
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Kooskia , Idaho
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal2 View Post
Began to look at specifications for Progressive Dynamics and noticed that although Bulk voltage is listed as 14.4V, the converter can only achieve 12.6V at rated current output. If this is the case, you would likely never obtain full converter current into the battery on Bulk charge because the battery is voltage dependent in order to force current. So buying a larger converter may not help recharge time. Hummm

Called Progressive Dynamics and spoke with an Engineer who confirmed that the highest current possible into a 50% discharged battery is approximately 47 amps. (regardless of having larger converter ie(55amps, 60amps, 70amps).
As was explained to me, the only advantage to a larger converter is the ability to support higher DC loads ie(appliances & lighting) my thought....so what

I'm looking for the quickest recovery time to recharge my batteries ..... not looking to run bigger loads and so the saga continues, I turned to IOTA
Batteries will only take current at a given rate and the charge tapers off rapidly in even the bulk rate stage. That is why PD says there is a limit to the current in the bulk stage. Batteries cannot be forced to accept charge faster than they want to (no, they are not human, but it is a chemical reaction situation). They don't mind being filled reasonably fast if they are mostly empty, but as they fill up, they take less current as the "nature of the beast". The last 20% goes slower. The last 5% is really slow. They are not like a glass of water that can be filled faster with a bigger hose. Your quest for a charger which will give you "the quickest recovery time to recharge my batteries" is going to run into this normal flooded cell battery charge issue every time. No one makes a charger which will fire hose fill a battery without damage to the battery.
__________________
idroba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2015, 07:42 AM   #35
Full Time Adventurer
 
BoldAdventure's Avatar
 
2007 27' International CCD FB
Nomadic , USA
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,743
Unless you go with Lithium batteries, you can charge them really fast.
__________________
Family of 4 living, working & exploring the USA in our Airstream.
OUR BLOG | FACEBOOK | INSTAGRAM
BoldAdventure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2015, 11:55 AM   #36
Rivet Slave
 
Rocinante's Avatar

 
2014 27' FB International
Western WA , Washington
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,440
Blog Entries: 49
Not as fast as they discharge your wallet when you buy them.

I kid, of course. I'd love a set of those lithium babies!
__________________
Rocinante is our 2014 International Signature 27FB
(Named for John Steinbeck's camper from "Travels With Charley")


Rocinante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 12:06 PM   #37
1 Rivet Member
 
2002 34' Classic S/O
Mt Holly , New Jersey
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 18
New Insight concerning Batteries/Chargers/Boondocking

Quote:
Originally Posted by lewster View Post
Sal,

First, Magnum inverters run about 85%+ in the efficiency department, with the higher voltages (24 and 48 VDC units) running in the 90% range. Don't know what inverters are in the 65% range, but they are not made by Magnum.

It's always better to utilize direct DC power as there is no conversion loss. DC powered TVs are around, but most folks I speak with prefer the 120VAC units. These need the inverter, along with the microwave and hair dryers. The larger amp draw items like the microwave and hair appliances require larger inverters, more in the 2000 watt range and a minimum of 300 amp/hour (and preferably 400+) to power that larger items for any length of time. Some folks just haul around a Honda 2000 and the required fuel and call it a day.....others want no part of a generator. As always....YMMV!

The electrical connections are not rocket science, but Do require an installer with a good working knowledge of the AC and DC systems of an RV and their interactions.

I looked at the product description on their web site. Sounds impressive until I looked further into the exact pre-programmed charging profiles...none of which work much better for Lifelines than some of the converters that you mentioned. There IS a custom program, but being unfamiliar with the unit I have no idea of how adjustable it is. I also noticed the the lithium battery profile is off from what is generally accepted.

I also researched this unit a bit on some of the marine forums. There was a significant amount of dissatisfaction with these units from some folks that have had to replace them multiple times from failures. They seem to NOT be repairable.

They are also NOT CHEAP, as pricing that I saw was in the $450-$550 range. half the price of a similarly capable Magnum (50 amp PFC charging section), and I saw no mention about temperature compensation. I also assume that charging multiple battery banks is not an option that you require.

Let us know how it works and if it keeps on working. It will be interesting for sure.
===============
Hi Lew,
I have been pondering whether or not to respond because I don't want to butt heads with anyone. However, seeing how much interest there is in this subject, it would seem unfair not to provide any info I have gathered.

Its appears inverter efficiency is indeed on the order of 85+% as you pointed out. I plead ignorance on this count. In my mind I remember inverters being very in-efficient. Perhaps I was looking at older portable inverters such as my Trip-Lite 200watt. Anyway, sorry for the mis-information.

As concerns Inverter Chargers, they seem practical when coupled with a supporting Solar energy source but not so good without it. As most trailer owners have no such system, conventional wisdom suggest finding ways to utilize 12VDC directly from the batteries and finding practical ways to recharge the batteries when needed.

When I travel, I have found that my vehicle charging system does a fair job of maintaining batteries when on the road. If I boondock for more than two days, I have to recharge. The idea behind getting a high quality marine charger/converter is to use a portable generator to recover to 90% charge. From what the folks at Lifeline tell me, this is very feasible with the right charger in approximately 3 to 4 hours, depending on the state of discharge.

My hope is to pump 60amps into the battery bank until it switches to Absorption phase. The batteries should be at 90+% at this point and allow for 2 more days boondocking.

This is based on a 250 amp-hr Lifeline Battery bank.
Using 4amps/hr, 8 hrs/day = 32 amp-hrs / day

Of course, a solar charger would also be an excellent solution for recharging the batteries and one to be considered.

But either case, I don't have a need or desire to install an Inverter/Charger.
And yes, I suggest the $500 Sterling is much more cost effective than spending $1000 for a Magnum Inverter/Charger + Solar system + Installation.

Concerning the charge profiles, the selectable profiles beat the pants off of having no selection and from what I understand, the profile offered for AGM batteries is very useable. I spoke with Dave at Lifeline and he indicated that the profile they provide looks good. (14.4 Bulk, 14.4 Absorption, 13.4 Float, 13.0 Maintenance) His only suggested improvement is to lower the Float voltage to 13.2. A change I can easily accommodate with this charger.

This charger does include a temperature compensation sensor module so no problem there.

Concerning Owner problems. I found two threads about on this subject, both threads written by the same person (Yofy) back in April 2011. In that same thread, (FlyingCloud1937) comments:

You just bought one of my preferred chargers, from one of my preferred manufactures.

I have recommended that charger to all of my commercial clients for the past 9 years.

Todate I haven't seen one failure in over 100.

lucky you.

Lloyd
__________________
Sal2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 05:20 PM   #38
1 Rivet Member
 
2002 34' Classic S/O
Mt Holly , New Jersey
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by idroba View Post
Batteries will only take current at a given rate and the charge tapers off rapidly in even the bulk rate stage. That is why PD says there is a limit to the current in the bulk stage. Batteries cannot be forced to accept charge faster than they want to (no, they are not human, but it is a chemical reaction situation). They don't mind being filled reasonably fast if they are mostly empty, but as they fill up, they take less current as the "nature of the beast". The last 20% goes slower. The last 5% is really slow. They are not like a glass of water that can be filled faster with a bigger hose. Your quest for a charger which will give you "the quickest recovery time to recharge my batteries" is going to run into this normal flooded cell battery charge issue every time. No one makes a charger which will fire hose fill a battery without damage to the battery.
========================
Hi idroba,
Not true. During bulk charging, the current into the battery is limited by three variables.
1) Charging voltage supplied by charger. This is the reason why Bulk Charge Voltage is typically 14.2V and higher. All things being equal, lower charging voltage will result in lower current, (less energy) longer recovery time, to charge the battery.
2) Internal resistance of the battery. In the case of LifeLine batteries they have very low internal resistance and therefore will accept high charging currents on the order of 250% of battery amp-hour rating. As the Lifeline Tech told me,"you probably couldn't afford the charger that this battery would accept".
3) The rated current output of the subject Charger. (assuming the charger can achieve full rated output current at the target voltage i.e.(14.2V or higher)

This is the reason why a charger that does not produce full rated current at the target charge voltage (14.2 or higher) will result in reduced charging current (and therefore longer charge time) into the battery. Probably over simplied but you get the idea.

Hope this helps.
Sal
__________________
Sal2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 06:34 PM   #39
1 Rivet Member
 
2002 34' Classic S/O
Mt Holly , New Jersey
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 18
New Insight concerning Batteries/Chargers/Boondocking

A little more information I found out today.

Folks at Lifeline said that with a 60amp charger on a 250 amp-hr battery bank (LifeLine Batteries). With the batteries discharged to 50%, recovery time to 90% would take 1 to 1-1/2hrs.

So I believe this would allow me to boondock for two days. Then running the generator for 1 to 1-1/2hrs to recover to 90% providing for another two days running off grid.

They tell me this is acceptable practice for a month or more as long as I return the batteries to full charge at some future time. Not exactly specified but indicated approximately every 1 to 1-1/2 months. Doesn't sound too difficult to live with.

Just another bit of info to consider.
__________________
Sal2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 06:38 PM   #40
Rivet Master
 
1974 Argosy 20
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Kooskia , Idaho
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,591
There was no mention of a specific battery type in the original post (s). I assumed the normal flooded cell battery. Others may be different and are different.

Flooded cell batteries have a recommended maximum charge rate which depends on their total capacity. Most RV type chargers take the typical battery and capacity into account in their design as they are general purpose devices built by the thousands at an affordable price. You can build custom anything and fine tune it with big budgets, but most people and manufacturers look at some compromises and costs for the job they generally have.

You are talking about bulk charging only. I wrote about total charging.

I wish you well with your quest.
__________________
idroba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 06:41 PM   #41
Full Time Adventurer
 
BoldAdventure's Avatar
 
2007 27' International CCD FB
Nomadic , USA
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,743
The $1000+ for the Magnum is the point that stops me from just ordering it. You have to buy the remote for it no matter what, so factor that in. I'm halfway into a solar build and haven't spent that much on panels or charge controller.
__________________
Family of 4 living, working & exploring the USA in our Airstream.
OUR BLOG | FACEBOOK | INSTAGRAM
BoldAdventure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2015, 08:18 AM   #42
Rivet Master
 
Boxite's Avatar

 
2008 22' Sport
Spicewood (W of Austin) , Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,230
Hooo-Boy!... I hope you guys don't think me a simpleton and a distraction... ... but I'm just reading.. then re-reading thru all this to follow the problem... and it appears that Sal is interested in high technology perfection in a low-cost package to save high-cost batteries from ordinary life-times of regular batteries.
If LIfelines cost $700 ($350 ea), and hi-tech charger costs $450... wouldn't it be simpler to buy ordinary deep cycle batteries at $250 ($125 ea) keep the OEM converter and replace them every 2-2.5 yrs?
OR.... face the fact that perfection costs... and buy the $$$ batteries and maintain with a $$$$$ (magnum) and forgettaboutit?

As for me (and I AM a noobie to this, since I don't even pick up my AS for another week) ... isn't it just simpleton-economics to buy cheap, common VRLA or flooded batts and live with the OEM converter.... and do that every 2-3 years .... and relax the mind about it? (Hey Honey! LOOK at that SUNSET! .... isn't this just exactly what we bought that tincan for?)

I mean... What am I missing here? Or... (and I'm seriously trying to get the point and sincerely not making at attempt at being sarcastic) is this quest just a matter of Sal having found a distraction for himself for amusement?)
__________________

__________________
Boxite is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Batteries, chargers, inverters, and converters kb0zke Batteries, Univolts, Converters & Inverters 2 01-07-2015 11:37 PM
Newbie, looking for insight pqtraveler Member Introductions 14 04-22-2008 07:10 AM
Batteries, Chargers, Inverters and Wire Size amalgamator Batteries, Univolts, Converters & Inverters 0 03-24-2008 07:46 PM
Skylight Insight nevisstudio Roof Vents, Skylights & Fans 2 08-28-2004 10:32 AM
wiring insight nevisstudio Electrical - Systems, Generators, Batteries & Solar 8 08-27-2004 05:22 PM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.