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Old 02-20-2017, 11:36 AM   #1
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My Solar Boondocking Upgrade Journey - Part 1

I am starting a thread on my journey to install my own solar system for a new AS. I hope this helps others along their journey. NOTE: this is not a "how to thread", more of a documentation of how i did it. The thought process I went through, where I purchased stuff, and who and how I got help. YMMV.

In this first Part, an introduction to give background, and how I educated myself.

introduction
I am new to owning a camper, but not to camping. An avid backpacker, and tent camper, I have spent many nights alone or with family in the woods, off grid. As I turn 50 this year, I am just plain tired of sleeping on the ground, in a cot, and just planning, packing everything up and unpacking for a family of six (kids 7, 11, 17, 18).

So we bought a 2017 Flying Cloud 23D, with two kids in college, we can fit everyone, and if necessary use a tent for the older girls (they are still young and can handle the ground).

Since we love to be off grid, I decided to do a major solar upgrade as well, thus the purpose of this thread I am starting. To Document and show my journey in adding solar to the system.

I'm a civil engineer, and an avid do-it-your-selfer. From rebuilding furnaces, washer and dryers, working in manufacturing facilities with large industrial machines, cars, trucks, and a complete 2500 sq ft remodel in a house (electrical, plumbing, framing, etc), I have done just about everything, so I consider myself a competent person with decent skills to perform electrical and plumbing work on an AS safely.

Having never owned a trailer, and never even looked at solar, I had to educate and start from scratch. There is plenty of info on the internet to learn, and many forums for sure. For those starting out, I suggest the following resources:

handy Bob's blog - great for basics and learning how to make things work on a budget. https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/. Bob had great info, and is opinionated, but very helpful. He will even respond to emails if you can find his email address. He helped to get me started and I learned much from him and his site.

AM Solar website, specifically the do it yourself section, where they teach you all about the basics of solar and the equipment. http://amsolar.com/diy-rv-solar-instructions/. I am biased as I have bought much from them now, but starting out this is a great resource, and they know what they are doing as well as very helpful. Check out the entire site, they have examples of systems they have installed.

Finally, airforums.com is a great resource, as there are many folks who have done this and are willing to help anyway they can. Just ask and help will follow. Make sure you know the google search trick, and search the forums, what you are looking for is likely here. These are a few folks that helped me out, went above anything I expected and continue to help:

Lewster: a professional Installer of all things RV and marine for solar, wireless, antennas, etc, anything tech in your trailer. He is on all the time and willing to help out everyone. His advice has been spot on and I couldn't have made the switch from a simple system to state of the art solar without him.

lsbrodsky: another do-it-your-selfer who installed a system very similar to the one I am installing (same brand and components). He has been answering questions and providing tips as I go though mine. Having someone with his experience willing to help has been great, and specifically using the same equipment has provided answers to very specific needs. Hopefully I can get mine to fire up on initial start like his did!

Switz: has a 23D like I do, so he has been very helpful in sharing info, photos, and ideas as to how and where he installed all the components to fit in the small 23D. Also, very helpful and responsive to my many questions. I hope my 23D can be tricked out as awesome as his someday.

So that is how I got started, a dream of owning an AS like my grandparents had, tired of always preparing, packing, unpacking, and sleeping on the ground. Needing a great solar system in order to boondock as most of our camping will be off grid and not in campgrounds with hookups.

Next post I'll share how I learned and why I went from a $2000 system to a much more expensive system, as well as my specific design.
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Old 02-20-2017, 11:50 AM   #2
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Rich,

Should be a great help to people considering the upgrade! Keep at it.

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Old 02-20-2017, 12:28 PM   #3
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Thanks for starting this thread - I will be watching with great interest
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Old 02-25-2017, 12:18 PM   #4
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Cool, I just finished (well its been in a year now) replacing the factory installed Solar in my 2012 25FB. I could never figure out why it didn't work, then I read https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/. It all made since. I discovered the 14 gauge 5A fuse link installed between the china solar charger and the batteries. Head slap, it was even warm to the touch on sunny days. I pretty much followed Bobs advice, with modifications for our personal usage and requirements. It is great when it all comes together, and worth the effort to gather the advice of others who have done it and use it.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:57 PM   #5
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The master plan.

A solar upgrade is a big project, and needs to be well thought out and planned. I am not anal, but I like to have an idea of what I am doing, buy the main parts I need, and then head to the local places to pickup the little parts and pieces I forget.

I began my journey though learning, and landed on what I will call system 1. This was a solid, basic system that would consist of Trimetric charger and monitor, a 1000W magnum inverter/charger, 200W of solar on the roof, and four 6 volt AGM batteries (maybe a few watts in the ground as portable as well). This was a robust system, that I thought would meet my needs and estimated to cost $2K-$3K, max.

Then I found this site and the am solar site, and was enlightened. Although the system 1 would meet my needs, I tend to be an early adopter of technology and like smart device compatibility. I learned about Victron BMV, and liked the blue tooth, same with the charge controller and decided to switch out the trimetric for these.

We like to boondock, and the wife likes creature comforts, but doesn't always come along with me and the kids. So when I did my load calcs (worst case in when wife comes along and brings all her stuff, curling iron, hair dryer, uses microwave, etc. ), I learned that I would need a larger inverter. Then I learned about hybrid inverters that can help you start your AC unit with a small generator and run the AC on one Honda eu2000, so I went with the bigger magnum hybrid. When we go to the dessert, AC will be nice, but not needed in mountains.

Then someone mentioned vertical integration, and Victron had a nice hybrid unit that cost a little less, the multiplus, and since I had the other Victron equipment, I switched to the multiplus. So that was the plan, system 2 with all Victron equipment and 440 amp hours of lifeline AGMS, plus now 500W of solar to keep up with when the wife camps with us and last for 3-5 days.

I was convinced that I didn't need lithium and thought they added a layer of complexity I didn't want to deal with. I also thought I could get 5 years from the AGMs and later upgrade to lithium once the prices dropped. Plus the AGMs cost 1/3 to 1/4 the price of equivalent lithiums! But man they weighed a tone and took up a lot of space that I didn't have.

Then met Larry, Lew, and AMSolar! They made me more comfortable with lithium and I was sold (plus I had the money saved). Being that weight/space was an issue, I went with the Victron lithium, the 320 Amp hour set. Only issue, they were back ordered (ordered in early January, they arrive this week!).

A lithium install requires a little more design and thought, and I was intimidated at first. But Larry, Lew, Switz, and AmSolar helped me get through it. This is not inexpensive, my total install will run close to $9K. I have the cash, and like to tinker, so this worked out, albeit much more than I though in terms of spend. But I have had fun and really am excited to use it.

Now to the design. The wire diagram below shows the final design I am using (note: this is different than a diagram I posted on another thread)

This was approved by the experts at Amsolar and also Lew provided guidance. There are a few extra breakers and switches in my design, but the extra $100 is well worth the insurance IMO. If you have questions, let me know.

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So with this drawing in hand, I started the install process in phases as I waited for the batteries as follows:

1. Tear out old electronics, and install new breaker panels and the multiplus. Re-wire a few circuits as needed.
2. Install solar panels on roof
3. Layout equipment location (batteries, BMS, Orion, fuses, switches). I used cardboard cut outs for batteries
4. Modify furniture to allow efficient use of space and functionality
5. Install batteries and make connections
6. Program multi plus and Victron equipment
7. Reinstall furniture
8. go Camp!

I will be posting updates with pictures on each of these phases over the next week. I have completed Phases 1-4, and plan to complete the rest this weekend, not number 8 yet!

I am willing to share my experience and knowledge with others. I learned a lot, but I am not an expert, and if I am unsure of something I wouldn't answer. I have a TON of pictures, so if you want a different angle or detail than what I post, just let me know.

Also, I think I have a cost-estimating spread sheet I used to cost the project and parts, PM me if you think that would help.
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Old 03-27-2017, 09:32 PM   #6
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Rich thanks for the great description of the evolution of your plan and the detailed drawing of the final configuration. I know your drawing helped me a lot in my own upgrade. And like you my plan evolved from a few simple mods to a major overall and went through many iterations over months of planning. After months of thinking about it, planning, and sourcing materials, once everything is in hand its amazing how fast the install is actually going!--Frank
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Old 03-28-2017, 08:59 PM   #7
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My Solar Boondocking Upgrade Journey - Part 1

Out with the old.........

So now I had a plan in hand and started to receive parts that I ordered. Again, we chose amsolar.com for the primary components, and amazon/home depot for everything else needed to screw, connect, attach, etc.

Before I get into Phase 1, tearing out and re-wiring, I want to mention that AS support has been great for me. I have requested drawings on electrical, plumbing, mattresses (for custom sheets), etc, and they have been responsive and given me everything I need with no fuss. I have all of that for a 2017 23D, if you want them send me a note.

I had an idea of where everything needed to be located as Switz did a similar upgrade to his late model 23D. Solar on top, down through the roof in the space where the microwave (more on this when I discuss solar install), then inverter/charger and batteries under the lounge and dining area against the street side of the 23D.

The pics below show the furniture i needed to get access under:

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I was naive and thought all you needed to do was remove a few screws and take the tops off two pieces. There was no way the tops were coming off. I basically had to remove both entire pieces (the corner and the longer lounge. After removing a ton of screws and mapping where they came from, I was able to get the access I needed. It wasn't that difficult, but did take time.

Here is a picture of the lounge in my garage after being removed:

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here is what I found after the corner dinette furniture was removed (stock inverter and the infamous “Rats Nest”):

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A close up of the rats nest, note all the crap, dust and debris, nice job factory installers.... Quality is another topic well discussed on the forum....

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And same rats nest with wiring covers removes from the T-Fuse and wire harness connector box. I was appalled at the debris and scraps (like the unused yellow butt connector) left behind. Also, look at the relay, not even installed level, and it was very loose because the screws were stripped in the wood backer board.

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The stock 1000W inverter:

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More sloppy workmanship and installation debris that was just left under the cabinet:

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So the first step was to remove the old stuff:

The inverter, fuse, and the remote control that was on the opposite side of the trailer. A total of 6 screws and I had it all removed. Here is a shot of the remote being taken off:

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Then I removed the power center which has the DC board, AC circuits, and the converter, this is what it looked like when you removed the brown cover and exposed the power center:

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After 4 more screws, it slid right out:

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Dang! Ran out of pic space again, continued on next post:
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Old 03-28-2017, 09:01 PM   #8
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Continued.....

Then I just removed all the AC and DC connecting wires and was left with a big hole with wires coming out (the wires in the black loom are all DC wires, the orange is the shore power feed, the rest were AC, all labeled in the front panel as well as with sharpie on the wire, and i double checked to make sure I knew what they were):

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When everything was out, the pictures below show the parts removed:

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So now everything was out, and the next post will discuss the new panels, rewiring, and other interesting install notes!
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Old 03-28-2017, 09:20 PM   #9
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Man Trout...you've been busy! I like what you have done...your work has given me ideas!

Quick question...how much do the batteries weigh? When all is said and done do you have a estimate of how much weight you have added...including batteries, equipment and solar panels?
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Old 03-28-2017, 10:01 PM   #10
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Cabinet,

So the two 160 amp hour Victron lithiums weigh 70 pounds each, or 140 pounds. The two interstates 80 amp hour weigh 45 each or 90 pound total.

The lithiums give me 256 amp hours of usable energy, and the interstates give a total of 80 ( you can only discharge them to 50%, where the lithiums can go to 80%).

The other issue is I am taking 90 pounds off the hitch basically, and adding the 140 back by the axel, so I'm not sure how much will make it to the hitch weight.

All in here is my rough total net weight add:

Batteries 140-90 = 50 pounds
Solar panels - 70 pounds
Electronics net about 45pounds.

So total is just under 170 pounds, but again, not all will go to the tongue weight, and I'm not sure how much will. Tongue weight is my concern as I am challenged with my tow vehicle.

I'm hoping for net neutral on the tongue....
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Old 03-28-2017, 10:14 PM   #11
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$9,000 and that's the DIY price YIKES. I've been dreaming of going 'properly' solar but it looks like it will remain a dream doe awhile Maybe as part of this you can include a post breaking down the costs at the end?

I'm enjoying this informative thread for sure! Thanks for posting.
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Old 03-29-2017, 06:07 AM   #12
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PCSkier, I can give you a breakdown for sure. Note on earlier post that I did have a solution for 2-3K. The lithium batteries are what drive the price up. The batteries alone are $4K. You can get great AGM batteries at 1/3 to 1/4 that cost depending on the size of the battery bank. The lithium and total amphour drives that high price tag.
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Old 03-29-2017, 07:10 AM   #13
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Someday those Lithium prices are going to come down and then we will see a lot of upgrades. You (and I) are just early adopters.

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Old 03-29-2017, 08:11 PM   #14
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In with the new... Power that is.

Continuing with the upgrade, I tackled the power situation first. In the last post I ripped out the existing power center. Some reuse it. When installing the Victron Multi-Plus as an inverter charger, it has AC power pass through, so you need an AC input and an AC output. This requires that you have two panels, a main where shore power comes in, then a sub panel that takes the AC from the multi-plus and distributes it where you want AC power when running off the batteries only. (see my drawing above where one panel is listed as main and one is listed as sub-panel).

If you reuse the existing power center, you have to add a new sub panel. Based on Lewster’s advice, I opted to put in a power panel that had both the main panel and the sub-panel in the same unit. I was also required to add a new DC panel, since the old DC panel was part of the old power center. All of this was able to fit into the existing hole that was left by removing the stock power system.

The two distribution panels I purchased are linked below (for 30 amp system):

DC Panel - http://www.bestconverter.com/PD6000-...l#.WNw3iBg-Ii4

AC dual panel - http://www.bestconverter.com/PD55B00...l#.WNw4LBg-Ii5

For the AC dual panel on that link, you want The PD55B003 which is a brown panel split 30/30 (mine was black and so was the DC panel)

So how does this all work and what else did I modify?

The sub-panel is run off the inverter. When on shore power, power enters the trailer into the main breaker. From there it passes through another breaker in the main panel, and then it passes through the inverter and goes to all the circuits (via the sub-panel). When not on shore, the DC power from the batteries is inverted to AC and distributed when the multi-plus is on, through the sub-panel. So, any circuits on the sub-panel will be AC, even when you are boondocking (and as long as you turn on the inverter).

In my case I ran every AC device to the sub that I wanted to be able to run off the batteries. This was everything except the water heater and the refrigerator (because these would kill the batteries if I left the fridge on or accidentally used electric water heater setting while on batteries, call it a fail safe approach). The air conditioner on the sub-panel works fine, because I may want to run it off a generator and need the hybrid assist of the inverter to get it started (when on shore power it will pass through the inverter and then power the air conditioner).

Note, this also made every single wall outlet in the AS to be AC (when on shore power AND when the inverter is on, powered by the batteries), which is much more convenient than using only specially labeled inverter outlets.

To make this happen, I had to do the following:

1. wire all the AC wires to their new positions in the new main and sub-panels.

2. Create a new circuit with a new wire run to the sub panel from where I disconnected the old inverter (this allowed the old inverter outlets to now be powered and used whenever on shore or battery powered)

3. Create a new individual circuit for the refrigerator to make sure I could isolate it and run the wire to the main panel. If anyone wants more detail on how this was done very easily, let me know.

Once this was done, I needed a way to mount the new panels into the existing hole that was created by removing the stock power system. I decided to use 1/8” thick aluminum plate. I order a 2x2 foot plate from Aircraft Spruce (2024T3 Aluminum).

I cut out two holes from the 1/8 inch sheet of aluminum; one for the dual AC panel, and one for the DC panel, and mounted it over the existing hole, see below:

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I ran the wires to the new boxes:

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Installed the new double pole breakers (AC):

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Wired the DC panel. The big bundle of individual wires are the individual DC circuits (lights, etc), the heavier gage red is the power source in, and then the heavy gage white was connected to the negative bar on the new DC panel:

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Here is what it looked like when it everything was installed:

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Here is a photo of the Victron equipment, the cover to the multi-plus is off. the two thick black lines from the multi-plus are the 10-3 gage AC in and out. Larry gave me great advice and I swapped out the heavy duty 6 gage three way wire that was shipped for 10 gage since I am using 30 amp service. 10 AWG is just fine, and it was much easier to work with and get into the multi-plus. Amsolar was very cooperative with this exchange.

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There are two RJ45 connections shown, one is for the remote (yellow), and one for the black USB box you use to connect a PC to program the system.

I was trying to figure out what to do with the hole above the sink that was left from removing the remote control from the old inverter. I was lucky in that the prewired solar charger control RJ45 (blue) was in the same hole. So all I did was make the hole larger (used a Dremel to cut out the larger hole, worked great!), and that is where I put the remote control for the Multi-plus (plugged in the RJ45 to the remote panel) as the wire ran to the same spot where my inverter was. I did have to extend it a bit at the inverter, thats why there is a yellow wire (and not blue) to the multi-plus.

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And here is what the remote panel looked like once it was installed (it doesn't quite all line up because there was a rib there that I didn't want to cut into on the left).

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So with these mods, and leaving the old batteries in place connected to the “Rats Nest”, I was able to run off shore power and run DC power. Shore power through the inverter, and the DC was wired up to the stock batteries. This was a temporary setup until the lithium batteries arrived to allow me to have furnace and lights as I continued the upgrades in the cold Colorado winter. I did not hook up the multi-plus to charge the stock batteries, I was just using a battery tender on an extension cord from the house.

Next I will cover the solar panel install, as I got a 70 degree weekend here in Colorado a few weeks back that allowed me to get the five 100W panels up on the roof!
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