Fuel cell power

[Knuff]

I am a Newbie and just getting settled about hitches etc for my new Tv (on order) for my 2014 FC.
The one and only upgrade thus far for my FC is a dual 70w = 140w solar and Morningstar charge/controller.
Because my TV is not going to be a truck (planning to tow the American dream withe the German dream), I cannot store a generator with fuel and fumes in the trunk of our new cayenne.
So, a thought (admittedly after a bottle of a good cab) is that a fuel cell might be the choice for situations when our 140w solar is not able to keep up with the energy demands. We plan to use the fridge, water pump, led lights, as well as the TV and stereo for 3-4 h - TV is running on the inverter.

Anyone out there with fuel cell experience, recommendations???

[Jim Flower]

Fuel cell, Ballard Power, equals bad short term investment. But I really like the propensity for Californians to be progressive thinkers. Solar is terrific and you should be ok if you run the fridge on propane. Jim

[polarlyse]

I'm not sure about your space available but I see some users are finding generators that run on propane. No worries about gas in the vehicle but it would, of course, require regular propane refills. Something to think on. An external fitting in the propane line would make it easy.

[Melody Ranch]

Tell me about Ballard fuel cells. I researched and researched….this was the FUTURE. Lost my A--.

[Jim Flower]

There were many affected by something. Not a very exclusive club. Perhaps one was just premature. Jim

[jdalrymple]

Forget the "German" dream.

Buy an American truck and carry the items needed to camp like you want.

Not trying to be argumentative, but one can spend $100 to save $10, when viewed in true context.



Regards,

JD

[Knuff]

I think that it is not so much about being able to carry all the things I need, space is not the issue. I simply do not like trucks, they do not fit in the garage, and frankly looking at a well equipped F250 is almost the same price as the Cayenne. It is not that the Porsche is not able to pull a 20 foot trailer. Is there someone out there who has actually used a fuel cell?

[jdalrymple]

I have not used them, but I have done quite a bit of research on them.

They company I work for owns cellular and public safety radio communications towers.

We looked into fuel cells as redundant power systems.

The reality is that they require just as much care, fuel, and maintenance as a generator, without the huge up-front cost.

They have been used in this application a few times where the desire to appear "green" outweighs all other factors, but that is about it.

One must still carry a large supply of fuel that is much more difficult to manage and find than propane or gasoline.


Things like methanol, hydrogen, and the like.



I hope you find a set up that works for you.


Regards,

JD

[Nuvite-F]

Welcome to the forums!

Speaking, as an engineer, about purely functional requirements (i.e. not matters of esthetics or political correctness),

Originally Posted by Knuff

I simply do not like trucks, they do not fit in the garage, and frankly looking at a well equipped F250 is almost the same price as the Cayenne.

That isn't really a valid comparison as you don't need anything like an F250 to tow your trailer. An F-150 will do just fine, at lower cost.

As far as "not liking" trucks, that's your business; you're welcome to like or not like whatever you want.

Is there someone out there who has actually used a fuel cell?

I doubt you will find anyone on the forums who has, as I am not aware of any fuel cells made for RV use. As I recall, several years ago General Electric introduced a natural-gas fuel cell system for residential use that achieved economic viability by using the waste heat for space and water heating, but I'm not sure if it was commercially viable.

You could meet your stated auxiliary power requirement with a small modern generator like the Honda EU-1000, which is no bigger than a carry-on bag, weighs less than 30 pounds, is amazingly quiet, and gets good fuel economy on a fuel--plain old gasoline--that you can get anywhere.
.

[BigAl]

I think what you are talking about is available from a company called Efoy.
I am not associated with them. They run on methanol and the units are very expensive.
Do a search and I am sure you will find info online.
I also think I saw them at Can Am rv in Ontario.
Al

[Knuff]

I looked into the Efoy FCs and they look interesting.
Running at 3.5K for the smallest unit, they are expensive.
The company claims to have sold more than 17,000 units in Europe. There, these fuel cells seem to be very popular.

A concern is if they decide to stop distribution in the US where to get the Methanol. I guess, probably through some chemical company like Sigma or so.

What an amazing gadget to have.

I wonder whether any AS owner has one of these?

[Mexray]

The main detractor for the eFoy RV type fuel cell units are their relatively low output (@12 volts)...they list three models:

1. 3.3 Amp rating (80 Amp Hrs per day)
2. 6.0 Amp rating (140 Amp Hrs per day)
3. 8.8 Amp rating (210 Amp Hrs per day)

As you can see, they are not much more than 'trickle' chargers - and at their high costs, just don't compare with small inverter type gas generators for all around RV use + you get 110 Volts AC with a genny...

The fuel cells do have the advantage of their low weight - less than 20 lbs..! And they are quiet...But you'll have to keep a supply of Methanol on hand - and I believe the Mfg. won't warrant the units unless you use their own brand of go-juice, another detractor IMHO...

Fuel cells are a great idea, but aren't cost effective yet here in the States...

[Nuvite-F]

An interesting gadget if you really, really want (or need) a fuel cell.

Their website is honest about discussing the devices limitations. Like the fact that you have to use their methanol cartridges because impurities in commercial methanol are likely to damage the device in short order.

I was under the impression that fuel cells were supposed to be efficient, but these aren't. The specifications indicate a specific fuel consumption of 0.9 liters of methanol per kilowatt-hour.

The Frequently Asked Question "How much waste heat is produced" is answered,

The [waste] heat (measured in watts) is approximately three times as high as the electrical energy (rated power) generated by the unit. For example, an EFOY COMFORT 80 fuel cell produces approximately 120 W of heat.

In other words, the efficiency is only 25%. This is apparently typical of Direct Methanol Fuel Cell (DMFC) technology. Wikipedia has an article on it: Direct methanol fuel cell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, to summarize what we've heard so far on this thread, their smallest unit, which only produces 40 watts, costs $3,500 and uses nearly a liter of fuel--which you have to buy in cartridge form from the manufacturer--to produce one kilowatt-hour of electricity.

Solar with a backup generator makes a lot more sense to me, but your mileage may vary!
.

[Knuff]

Really good points.

I like gadgets
But it has to make sense, also price-wise.

I think that I will go with solar first (in fact the panels are being installed next week - I got 2 UniSolar stick-on 68W panels).
Then will assess how the stock batteries work for 1+ week boon docking and go from there. A generator is not in the picture yet, but we do not plan on using the A/C or any other appliance that would need 110V except for the TV once in a while for which we use the inverter. Main reason for not liking a generator is that we do not use a truck as a TV, but an SUV.

But still if someone who owns an Efoy or other fuel cell power finds this threat, please post your experience.

[FlashSilver]

Originally Posted by Knuff

Really good points. I like gadgets But it has to make sense, also price-wise. I think that I will go with solar first (in fact the panels are being installed next week - I got 2 UniSolar stick-on 68W panels). Then will assess how the stock batteries work for 1+ week boon docking and go from there. A generator is not in the picture yet, but we do not plan on using the A/C or any other appliance that would need 110V except for the TV once in a while for which we use the inverter. Main reason for not liking a generator is that we do not use a truck as a TV, but an SUV. But still if someone who owns an Efoy or other fuel cell power finds this threat, please post your experience.

I don't think you will need a generator, fuel cell or otherwise. I boondock almost exclusively and have never needed any more energy beyond what my factory solar provides. My trips have lasted as long as 60 days without plugging in. You are getting even more wattage than I have ( 138W vrs 110W). I don't own a generator and have never wanted one. I still use the original factory batteries, have all led lights, do not watch TV in my trailer, and rarely spend much time inside my trailer except when I am sleeping, showering, or making breakfast. All other meals are made outside, weather permitting. I use the batteries to recharge my iPad during the day and my iPhone and satellite radio boom box at night. By 10:00 am my batteries are 100%. When they finally give out I will replace them with AGMs, but so far I have been satisfied with the originals.

All my reading is done on my iPad, whether inside or outside depending, again, on the weather. I use the inverter to power my Toto Washlet toilet seat (http://www.totousa.com/Washlet/B100.aspx) and nothing else on a regular basis. I have the full awning option, which allows me to camp in the full sun. It still gets hot inside during the day, but I'm fishing or biking so I don't feel it. If it rains for more than a couple of days, I hook up and go where the sun is shining. I have a propane stove and oven, no microwave. The refer, furnace, and water heater all run on propane. If the furnace runs all night it drains the batteries, but they charge up fine by the time I get up.

I tow with a 2008 Toyota Tundra, but will soon trade it for a Porsche Cayenne TDI or VW. Like you, I'm not a truck guy, and the German dreams have better brakes and suspension. Once you unhook you have a vehicle that is actually fun to drive. The Tundra is bulletproof, but it's a truck.

Don't worry about the generator, go camping a few times and then decide if you really need it. I come from a minimalist camping background, and find my Intl 25 FB much more than I need to feel comfortable and pampered.

[blee5353]

How do u pull your 25FB with a Toyota Tundra.How is it over Rockies etc. we thought u old need something bigger to tow ac25 footer. The Lee,s

[ROBERT CROSS]

Honda 2000i
Dual use propane conversion....
Stored in a 24gal ActionPacker. No fumes

Bob

[FlashSilver]

Originally Posted by blee5353

How do u pull your 25FB with a Toyota Tundra.How is it over Rockies etc. we thought u old need something bigger to tow ac25 footer. The Lee,s

The Tundra has 400+ ft/lbs of torque and 1200+ lbs of payload. It will tow anything Airstream makes up and down the Rockies without a problem. My problem with the Tundra is not when I am towing, it's when I want to drive and park it at the mall. It's a big truck. It's a really good truck, but it's a truck. Mine has 83,000 miles on it and has never needed anything except routine maintenance . It's just that I only drive it when towing, and now want to use only one vehicle.