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Old 01-11-2018, 08:33 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Ray Eklund View Post
The conversation has changed a bit, but I still have no clue where this BLM site is located, for my own checking statements made and finding facts. The original post should have provided more information so, we as a group, can understand.

The American Indian were no more concerned about leaving trash and garbage on their seasonal travels than some campers today.

Today, these are protected sites that are excavated by Universities to understand what these, now artifacts, tell us about how they lived. Some of us on the New Mexico and Wyoming Boondocking Adventures found their TRASH everywhere in the form of Ruins, scattered piles of broken pottery and razor sharp flakes of obsidian, opals and agates.


So, lets get off the modern trash. It is not as bad as some describe. More trash is right along the Highways. A thousand years from now our City Dumps will be protected from... LOOTERS.

Already there are people who are studying discarded old Cans in the West. There are books on identifying the age a particular time a can was made. I have some from the 1850's to 1870's. Ranchers know an 'old can' from a 'modern can'. I have an excellent collection of square nails from the 1860's Union Pacific from one Ranch. Discarded as trash in 1867 and in the two rut roads.

Indians use to burn off prairie grass so the Spring brought fresh grass and the Buffalo next season.

If schools taught us more about real history, we would all benefit. Ignorance is a terrible thing. Like Little Big Man... "I see their dump. Where's the Village?"
That brings up the point that any federal action, whether it be an oil or gas well or installing a barbed wire fence require a cultural clearance. Archaeologists do a survey to see if there is anything out there, arrowheads, teepee rings, tin cans, etc. If anything is found, it is documented and left in place, unless for some special reason it is collected and curated. Oftentimes these things cause projects to me moved in order to avoid disturbing them. Data on these issues is not publicly available because it would end up being a map for looters.
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:38 AM   #62
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A Very Complex Issue

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Originally Posted by markdoane View Post
Informational post:

A few posts have been deleted in this thread because they discuss politics or politicians.

A few other posts have been deleted because they quoted previous posts that were deleted.

Save yourselves from unnecessary typing by refraining from making comments about politics.
You probably need to shut this entire thread down because the basis for the OP's concern is all about politics.

Americans have this very strong freedom gene deeply embedded in us. We should be free to do this, free to do that, free to go where we want and when we want. Stop us and by golly, you must be Un-American!


Our national park system was set up to allow access for all citizens to some of the most beautiful places in our country. The BLM is the Bureau of Land MANAGEMENT. They are tasked to manage the land in the best interest of the citizens. A big part of this is access and availability.

It is a very complex issue as we all know. People abuse the privilege and thing get restricted and that is just one issue. Today we are wrangling with the issue of "who actually owns the land?" Another complexity to consider.

I live in the Pacific Northwest. There is a lot of open space and plenty of boondocking opportunities. There is a lot of state and federal land to access.
Years ago I read on a different camping forum discussions of someone looking forward to going out to "their lease" for their first camping trip. Lease? What was that? Researching I found out that there are many places where you can/have to, lease a plot of ground if you want to camp. Texas has the largest percentage of privately owned land in the US. Put another way, it has the lowest percentage of public land. When it is private, owners dictate.

Today we are seeing an increasing amount of "public" land being leased for all sorts of reasons. Once it is leased, it is no longer public first. It would be ridiculous to expect a large drilling operation to remain open to the public for safety reasons alone. So, if you have always gone to your special place on BLM land only to find that it has been leased out and you are no longer welcome there, you should not be surprised.

If this really upsets you, take a close look at your stance on things that have brought us here. Everything is good until it is your ox that is being gored.
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:41 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Ray Eklund View Post
More trash is right along the Highways.
Yeah, you should see the bottles lining Colorado 41 going into Utah.

More glass there than at a Corning Glass factory.

An unintended consequence of Utah's alcohol laws where an open container in a vehicle draws a fine/citation.

No aluminum cans, tho.

But maybe some future enterprising recycler can buy the salvage rights from Colorado!! A public resource in the making!
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:43 AM   #64
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Does thread actually contain some very informative information. For those of us who like to Boondock and there are many it is nice to be well-informed from various different facets on how to access and proceed and conduct themselves on these types of lands.

When I read the original posting the way that I took it was the poster was frustrated at a change of the area on property he had previously camped on.

What I hoped for was responding posts that would explain BLM land, would explain drilling and private property differences and we could all get informed.

While some of those responses did get in there thank you for those people.

What we also get is a bunch of innuendo, rhetoric and political preferences. I really don't care who's red, green, blue or otherwise I would just be rather well informed on BLM lands.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:25 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hittenstiehl View Post
Does thread actually contain some very informative information. For those of us who like to Boondock and there are many it is nice to be well-informed from various different facets on how to access and proceed and conduct themselves on these types of lands.

When I read the original posting the way that I took it was the poster was frustrated at a change of the area on property he had previously camped on.

What I hoped for was responding posts that would explain BLM land, would explain drilling and private property differences and we could all get informed.

While some of those responses did get in there thank you for those people.

What we also get is a bunch of innuendo, rhetoric and political preferences. I really don't care who's red, green, blue or otherwise I would just be rather well informed on BLM lands.
This is a little off topic, and I bet you already know this, but maybe it will help some others. We've discussed this many times before. Public lands, be it BLM, Forest Service, Corps, etc are fairly easy to identify with modern GPS's. Many in our office have started using the app Avenza Maps. There is a free version available with some minor restrictions. With this app, you can download most maps you can possibly imagine. The app will show you where you are on that map. If you have GIS capabilities you can make your own map. I find the BLM status maps particularly useful. They are very accurate and have great resolution. I have the entire state of Wyoming on my phone. These maps will show you exactly where the public land is and if there is access to it via public roads. It also shows most private roads and two-tracks. If it is not a county or state road and is crossing private land, you can assume that you don't have a legal right to use that road.

I know there are other apps and gps software out there that provide similar information.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:43 AM   #66
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It is important to have good maps. We found a beautiful spot at the end of a little draw at the head of a small canyon in a remote part of Colorado. Private land and BLM land were intertwined but the map indicated the road and head of the canyon were BLM. There were cows grazing up the hill 1/4 mile away. Not 15 minutes after we set up a rancher and his wife came down in their ATV. I immediately asked if we were on his land. He said yes we were. Then, his wife said, “What he meant to say was no you’re not and thank you for camping here because that will prevent our cattle from going down the canyon. Once they go down there it’s takes us days to get them out.” Nice people and turned into a nice conversation in a beautiful spot. I knew we were in the right spot but certainly did not want to make anyone mad. It pays to have a good mapping system.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:58 AM   #67
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Off the Grid Boondockers have a very good understanding of what you can and cannot do on Public Land, aka Government Land, State Land, School Sections, Historical Sites, Paleontological Protected Sites, Natural Fenced Habitat Study Sites, Desert Tortoise fencing and artificial burrows, and so on.

I hope.

Rocks are protected. Fossils within rocks are protected. Geological 'structural features' are protected. Sand Dunes are protected. From what? As a Geologist, the Earth over time weathers and destroys what time has created. If it is protected, it will be weathered away by natural processes, with or without our participation. There is no calendar for the planet on weathering of the surface. Ask those in southern California. It just happens.

A protected group of fossils, on the surface at this moment in time, may have a hundred thousand square miles buried underground, to be weathered out over the next million or ten or a hundred million years, anyways.

There are too many 'stirring the pot' that have little imagination what time can do. Many do not understand that whatever is on the surface today, is temporary. Most do not understand that today's roads into the wilderness are temporary. Even the Oregon Trail is becoming a memory, as the well worn passages to the west coast have weathered with time.

A human life time is fleeting. Enjoy what you are able to do, today. Tomorrow, you may find what we do today with our Airstream, as a program on the History Channel... what people use to do in their free time in the 21st Century.
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:01 AM   #68
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I used to live in Durango, CO part of the four corners of CO, UT, AZ, NM area which sits atop one of the largest oil and gas reserves in the country. It produces about 8% of the nations natural gas supply. There are more than 20,000 producing wells and another 5000 predicted to be started to tap another 148 million barrels of natural gas and 7 to 35 million barrels of oil.

In addition they can drill on private land. Most homeowners do not own the mineral rights underneath their land. These companies pay fees and taxes which support the local counties and provide good paying jobs. Most people who live their want them their. Good luck fighting this one.

I understand the OP's frustration but I find that the giant wind turbines dotting the landscape to be a bigger invasion than the well heads.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:51 PM   #69
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Mojo, I agree with what you just said. Once the oil companies leave it is usually a well head and perhaps some buried pipeline somewhere. Camping close to these would be doable.

I live where there are few oil rigs but many, many wind turbines. Once they get them built and producing you still have these huge machines that actually make noise if you are close to one. No going back here.

I drove up a road to a place where they were installing many turbines. A few had been completed and were producing. I approached the guy at the gate and asked him if I could walk up to the closest one and just stand there and get a feeling as to the size and sound. I was very nice and respectful. I had parked my truck down the road and had planned to simply walk up maybe 80 yards to the turbine, all of which were visible to the "guard". He told me to turn around and leave. I have not followed up on any of this. My guess is that even after they are built, the public is probably not welcome around them. Liability and the threat of vandalism are probably some of the reasons. Another piece of "our" land gone from our use.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:47 PM   #70
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Anyone know of a website or forum that really focuses on boondocking? I'd like to find a site that's helpful and in favor of boondocking, instead of the old red vs blue debate.
In another 10 years with all us boomers filling up the campgrounds, a little more knowledge on locating places might be helpful. Some say it's already here..
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:56 PM   #71
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There js a boondocking subfirum on the airforums.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:00 PM   #72
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Thalweg, thanks for your informed and helpful posts.

My understanding was that mineral lease revenues from public land were set by Congress back in the 19th century, hence the "pennies per acre" fees. But that info may be out of date, as per this statement from the BLM: https://nflss.blm.gov/faq

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMH25TWIN View Post
IM SO CONFUSED,
This was a timely forum for me as I just ordered several “boondocking books” as I’d like to take better advantage of public lands; I don’t especially enjoy trailer parks with swing sets. I’ve always been nervous about trespassing when out fly fishing, cycling, and camping. I know there will be those who say it is my responsibility to know the rules; and as threads above, to go to this office or that, or know the maps, to determine access; and I get that. But it is all a little intimidating. I’d really like to get “out there” but is it really all that hard. My recently acquired boondocking resources cover water and electricity conservation but fall way short of informing as to legal and ‘polite’ access. I certainly don’t want to trespass, or have a run-in with some rancher, but I also don’t want to just sit at home and stare at my Airstream. I know this reads as venting, but the subject is genuinely challenging, especially for one who wants to play by the rules. Thanks for reading.
Generally in the West you will see brown wooden signs with the BLM insignia when you head off on an intriguing back road in the desert. US Forest Service boundaries are usually well-marked. The rule is that you can pretty much camp anywhere you want on BLM land, US Forest Service or state "school section" land if it's not posted to the contrary. In popular areas, you may see designated sites for dispersed camping, with the rest off-limits, often for vegetation restoration.

A lot of BLM land is just not that suitable for camping: steep, rocky, or separated from the road by a big ditch. But when you find good sites, I think you will find that wonderful dispersed boondocking experience you want. The BLM also manages small primitive campgrounds. In the desert West campgrounds, you have to bring your own water, and you can't count on a sani-dump in these sites. I think most USFS CGs have a pump or tap on site.

You will find a lot of "hardened" dispersed sites, where previous campers have worn down short access roads and built fire rings. Sadly, occasionally you will find trash, broken glass, the fire ring filled with sand, and unconcealed latrines in the sites, as well, left by slob campers. A shovel, heavy gloves, and sturdy garbage bags are recommended.

A big use of BLM land is for grazing. Do bring a shovel, 'cause even if the livestock have moved on, they probably left their poop behind.

Thalweg mentioned maps published by the BLM that show land ownership at a decently large scale. We prefer paper maps, which are available, as well.

The main recommendation, at least to start, is to camp along graded roads. Sometimes a back road will look OK, then suddenly turn incredibly rocky or have deep ruts, mud, or sand. You can always drop your AS at your readily accessible campsite, and explore the Back Of Beyond in your TV (4WD SUV or truck.)

You should have a great time, just armed with a little "know before you go" info.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:10 PM   #73
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I am new to this forum, so hopefully you will forgive me for pointing out the elephant in the room. Although we are one of you, my wife and I couldn't help but laugh at the irony of a group of people who drive one ton duallies that may get ten miles per gallon while towing five to ten thousand pound trailers full of televisions, stereos, ovens, bathrooms, and living room furniture complaining about the methods of the companies that supply that precious fuel that keeps us mobile. (I'm sure the diesel owners will say they get better mileage.) I realize the complaint is about loss of access, but it still struck us as funny.
Fair enough-- but this is part of why we decided on a Bambi, due to its smaller footprint. We practice a lot of energy conservation measures at home, as well. For example, in winter we keep our home at 63F. (Chilly? Wear a sweater.) We live in a rural area, and bundle our trips to town. We're retired, so no long daily commute. We are a one-vehicle household.

Hopefully we've all got similar stories of how we reduce our carbon footprints.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:20 PM   #74
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I don't like the idea that the BLM "owns" the land. Or even decides how it's used.
We the people own the land. This is why it's called public land. The BLM manages it.

But realistically, someone has to manage it, or you'd risk losing/seriously degrading the resources. BLM land was carved out of the prior public domain of the unsettled and unclaimed desert West, after the homesteading option was closed as being unfeasible due to insufficient water. Overgrazing, unrestrained OHV use, depletion of wildlife, and unrestrained theft of our mineral resources would benefit neither you or the rest of the public.

Lord knows the BLM has made unpopular decisions and mistakes, but an anarchic situation would only harm your resources.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:43 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Len n Jeanne View Post
Generally in the West you will see brown wooden signs with the BLM insignia when you head off on an intriguing back road in the desert. US Forest Service boundaries are usually well-marked. The rule is that you can pretty much camp anywhere you want on BLM land, US Forest Service or state "school section" land if it's not posted to the contrary. In popular areas, you may see designated sites for dispersed camping, with the rest off-limits, often for vegetation restoration.

A lot of BLM land is just not that suitable for camping: steep, rocky, or separated from the road by a big ditch. But when you find good sites, I think you will find that wonderful dispersed boondocking experience you want. The BLM also manages small primitive campgrounds. In the desert West campgrounds, you have to bring your own water, and you can't count on a sani-dump in these sites. I think most USFS CGs have a pump or tap on site.

You will find a lot of "hardened" dispersed sites, where previous campers have worn down short access roads and built fire rings. Sadly, occasionally you will find trash, broken glass, the fire ring filled with sand, and unconcealed latrines in the sites, as well, left by slob campers. A shovel, heavy gloves, and sturdy garbage bags are recommended.

A big use of BLM land is for grazing. Do bring a shovel, 'cause even if the livestock have moved on, they probably left their poop behind.

Thalweg mentioned maps published by the BLM that show land ownership at a decently large scale. We prefer paper maps, which are available, as well.

The main recommendation, at least to start, is to camp along graded roads. Sometimes a back road will look OK, then suddenly turn incredibly rocky or have deep ruts, mud, or sand. You can always drop your AS at your readily accessible campsite, and explore the Back Of Beyond in your TV (4WD SUV or truck.)

You should have a great time, just armed with a little "know before you go" info.
A couple of additions: In Wyoming dispersed camping is not allowed on State land.

I thought there was a spec on how far off of a road you were allowed to camp, but I can't find it. But it is recommended that you not go too far off road. If you're causing resource damage (ruts) stop. Many BLM managed land has clay soils. If it rains while you're in there you are either going to get stuck or cause surface damage.

You are limited to 14 days, and then must move five miles away (at least in Wyoming)
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:05 PM   #76
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I recommend a book by Ira M. Tillotson- Legal Principles of Property Boundary Location on the Ground in the Public Land Survey States, 1973.

Also for those who want to be experts: Minerals, Lands and Geology for the Common Defence and General Welfare (Volume 1- Before 1879) (Volume 2- 1879-1904) & (Volume 3- 1904-1939). These volumes will get you started on your PhD on WHY.

These were printed in 1979 to 1986 by the United States Geological Survey.

If it were simple, we all would know. Good luck.
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:11 PM   #77
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This thread is closed until further notice because of deliberate and flagrant violations of these community rules:

"Discussions about politics, weaponry and religion are permitted only in association with the topic of this forum and will be closed or removed if they become disruptive."

"Public discussion about moderation or moderator decisions is not allowed. If a moderator deletes or edits one of your posts and you disagree with the action, contact the moderator concerned. Do not repost deleted material."
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