BLM land being leased to big oil.

[Burnside Bob]

Thalweg, thanks for your informative posts explaining the process. Reducing the size of established National Monuments and opening public lands for a new round of energy leasing are controversial actions at best. Knowing the 'ground rules', pardon the pun, helps all understand the process.

We vagabond trailer travelers do benefit from public lands. This is Comb Wash, a free BLM boon docking site in SE Utah.

Later, I pulled over at a huge gravel area SE of Nageezi, NM. The parking area looked like a roadside rest, being several acres in size, but was occupied only by two Native American jewelry vendors. Business was slow.

I enjoyed a leisurely lunch and, as I left, passed by a crumpled sign in the center of this "rest" area.



Thank you BLM for allowing our use of the public lands. I hope this policy continues and that the public's comments on future land use are considered.

[Al and Missy]

Originally Posted by Burnside Bob

...

I enjoyed a leisurely lunch and, as I left, passed by a crumpled sign in the center of this "rest" area.



Thank you BLM for allowing our use of the public lands. I hope this policy continues and that the public's comments on future land use are considered.

I'd read that sign as a directive to WPX Energy interests not to stage equipment or park in that area.

Al

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by Matt Kline

Since 2007 our favorite BLM state has been Utah. We had a rude awakening in September when we drove six miles up a dirt road to to a great spot on a lake, only to find it posted by Pacific Energy. Every primitive camping spot had a new PE sign.
There were no lease signs where we left the paved road, only the normal BLM sign.
WTF is going on? Well, it seems that big oil is leasing thousands of public land acres for pennies per acre. My son in law is a land man. In Texas he has paid owners as much as $5,000 per acre for a lease. Our bankrupt government is leasing OUR BLM land for a pittance.
Although I am no Trump guy, he can't be blamed. This started under Obama.
Does anyone know what we can do to fight this?
If we can't fight it, could we at least demand they tear down the BLM signs so we don't drive for miles down a bumpy, dusty, dirt road only to find spots where we have camped for years posted.
my e-mail is mjkvsk@gmail.com if anyone wants a private discussion on this. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I sure would like to raise some hell. At the nearest BLM office a sympathetic lady told me there doesn't seem to be anything we can do about it. Great democracy!!!

You sound like you have a serious chip on your shoulders.
Like it or not should you want to get to the bottom of this you will have to deal with bureaucrats to answer your questions.

[tjdonahoe]

Here sometimes the BLM land has a padlock on the gate....I do carry a pair of bolt cutters .......that the ranchers put on to keep people out..same as school land...we own it

[Ray Eklund]

Thalweg... Thank you for giving the 'raw details' to everyone following this Thread.

Although many understand these lands are 'Public Domain', it does not give you permission to do what you want, where you want and whenever you want. Much is 'common sense', but that is another discussion.

Signs indicating where the BLM end/begin and the National Forests end/begin are good to know. If you have questions, you know who and where to ask any questions. The employees work for YOU. You may not like the answers, but these departments have been around since the late 19th Century and early 20th Century.

If it were not for Mining, Lumbering and Petroleum Exploration, you, the Boondocking Trailer Owner, would not have ANY ACCESS off the major Highways. Again... common sense is lost with politics.

I can guess which use a road may be designed, just by the width and quality. The oil industry build the finest roads into the most desolate places in our country. The timber industry, the narrowest with the most switchbacks for forest access. The mining industry... you had better be using a 4x4 without a trailer in tow.

Fishing. Hunting. Bicycling. Hiking. Climbing. Scenery. Without the commercial 'development' of natural resources, you would be sitting at a RV Park, with a fishing pond and a playground with a swing set.

I have been on BLM Land and asked to leave by a Rancher. This was surrounded by Private Property with access using a road going through Private Property to the BLM Land. After I produced a map and ASKED permission, he was much more cooperative. We exchange Christmas cards ever since. These people just want to protect their land from those who think a two rut road is permission to go anywhere. Myself, included. Just know what you are doing and where.

I am impressed with most of the responses. Some of you I know. We understand. Having accurate maps is necessary, as well. With a little research we can locate this 'mythical lake in the Utah wilds'. I may just have to take a look there, myself.

[billrector]

Originally Posted by Boxite

Yes. It's a sad thing when people jump to conclusions and fail to feel properly sorry for oil companies.

You are jumping to the conclusion that we feel sorry for oil companies. No one said that. The point is that if you want to have a factual discussion about an issue, don't start by throwing in unsubstantiated claims or other points that make it clear you don't really care what the facts show.

[2Highplains]

Matt: The Federal government is authorized and expected to lease Federal land for oil and gas exploration. That is part of the overall mission of the Dept of Interior........to lease Federal land for exploration. That is how it generates revenue to fund the DOI and BLM. And, fund the Utah State School system. Pacific has paid the going market rate for the Federal leases, not "pennies on the dollar." And any comparison of Federal oil and gas leases in Utah to Texas is not valid, i.e. Texas is primarily Fee land, Utah is Federal-State.
Finally, quit complaining. You drive a big diesel truck. Do you think the diesel itself comes from a windmill or a solar panel? It comes from responsible oil-gas exploration that is well-regulated.
Enjoy the Federal lands that specifically designated for Multiple Use......to be used for recreation, industry, grazing, and responsible development.

[Lumatic]

Not trying to flame anyone. Just presenting information that I was told was factual. But obviously there are contrasting points of view which personally I welcome.

BTW/ When I have crossed private land I have always checked it was OK to do so and leave gates closed or open as I found them. I have also been told that unless land is posted it is OK to enter. Is this correct?

[Ray Eklund]

Sophiehaus... congratulations. You have earned this long paid... vacation.

[Bob662]

Originally Posted by Lumatic

I have also been told that unless land is posted it is OK to enter. Is this correct?

The legal answer is, NO. Private means private. Some states require that posted signs be erected in order to prosecute trespassers, but the absence of these signs isn't tacit approval to enter, or to cross, private lands.

This is something of a sore point with me, as a fairly large landowner. Deer season brings out every peckerwood in Mississippi. They'll hunt our land if it's not fenced or a gate is left unlocked, and if it is locked, they'll then climb over the gate, road hunt, or shoot at night.

Sorry; I'll get off the soap box now...

[Thalweg]

Originally Posted by Lumatic

BTW/ I have also been told that unless land is posted it is OK to enter. Is this correct?

Not in Wyoming. You need to know where you are here and who owns the land. Many won't care, but occasionally.....

[InterBlog]

This is one of those threads that falls into the category of "I thought I'd seen it all but I was soooo wrong". Thanks to Thalweg and Sophiehaus for explaining the NEPA process more succinctly than I've seen pretty much anywhere... aaaand I've seen this on an Air Forums thread, of all places. Go figure.

I used to prepare EAs and EISs in the municipal context, for regional wastewater infrastructure projects. Unlike a BLM land use situation, there was no public controversy surrounding my projects. The attitude was, "You people want a bazillion dollars of public money to upgrade our sewage treatment network? Awesome! Here you go! Knock yourselves out!" I'd go to great lengths to hold the public meetings that were required by law, and not a single member of the public would show up, LOL.

For those who would like to learn more about the NEPA process in the Utah context, here is one example source page.

[overlander63]

Originally Posted by tjdonahoe

.same as school land...we own it

No. We don't. The local school districts do. And local police can, and will arrest anyone caught trespassing on school property. Very bitter personal experience here, where I was very quickly "schooled" as to whether school property was public land.

[kendrick.l.j]

Lunatic, I see others have also answered so I don’t want to go further inland the legalities but you are incorrect. You do not have the right to assume that because there are not signs posted that you or anyone has the right to enter someone else’s land. A quick email to the closest field office to verify access to land would be a very good idea. Another great place to check might be county tax assessor office.

[Boxite]

Originally Posted by billrector

You are jumping to the conclusion that we feel sorry for oil companies. No one said that. The point is that if you want to have a factual discussion about an issue, don't start by throwing in unsubstantiated claims or other points that make it clear you don't really care what the facts show.

There's this little thing called "sarcasm", Bill...

Sometimes it's missed when we're in a hurry to say our say instead of thinking about it....

[Lumatic]

Originally Posted by kendrick.l.j

Lunatic, I see others have also answered so I don’t want to go further inland the legalities but you are incorrect. You do not have the right to assume that because there are not signs posted that you or anyone has the right to enter someone else’s land.

I don't, but this is what I was told a long time ago in upstate NY.

To throw a monkey wrench into this lively discussion allow me to bring up riparian law, at least as I understand it. The statute goes something like this. A waterway navigable in fact is navigable by law. The implication is if someone can paddle a canoe down your stream which goes through your property he is legal. Of course the banks of the stream are his, but what about the streambed?

Woody Guthrie, This Land is Your Land, 1940
Was a high wall there that tried to stop me
A sign was painted said: Private Property,
But on the back side it didn't say nothing —
God blessed America for me.

[Thalweg]

Originally Posted by Lumatic

I don't, but this is what I was told a long time ago in upstate NY.

To throw a monkey wrench into this lively discussion allow me to bring up riparian law, at least as I understand it. The statute goes something like this. A waterway navigable in fact is navigable by law. The implication is if someone can paddle a canoe down your stream which goes through your property he is legal. Of course the banks of the stream are his, but what about the streambed?

Woody Guthrie, This Land is Your Land, 1940
Was a high wall there that tried to stop me
A sign was painted said: Private Property,
But on the back side it didn't say nothing —
God blessed America for me.

This varies dramatically between states. Also, the term navigable is used by the Corps of Engineers to determine what a "Water of the U.S." is, and it is very complicated. I'm supposed to be an expert on these sort of things and I don't even try to answer them anymore. If someone asks me about J.S. jurisdiction, I give them the phone number for the Corps.

[Boxite]

Originally Posted by Lumatic

I don't, but this is what I was told a long time ago in upstate NY.

To throw a monkey wrench into this lively discussion allow me to bring up riparian law, at least as I understand it. The statute goes something like this. A waterway navigable in fact is navigable by law. The implication is if someone can paddle a canoe down your stream which goes through your property he is legal. Of course the banks of the stream are his, but what about the streambed?
....

You'd have to know the laws in every state and county to know that. Here in central Texas we own property with almost 2 miles of shoreline with Lake Travis. Boaters picnic on our property and leave garbage all the time. It's illegal, but I'd have to catch them, and hold them until the sheriff arrives to do anything about it. We are deeded to the center of the old channel of the Colorado River which forms that lake. If a boater skis along the top of the water he is on state waterway..but if he drops anchor he's tresspassing on our property. Again... try to enforce that! And the boater has no clue whatever of his error, and would likely think me mad to complain about him dropping anchor in the middle of the lake.
A waterway must be wider than 60' the majority of the time for a person to claim public access along the channel. Narrower than 60' and you are tresspassing on a private waterway.... as long as the property-owner owns both shores.
It's illegal for me to pump water out of the lake without a permit that I'd have to pay for and meter the water taken.... but I can drill a well in the center of that lake down to the water table below and pump all I want because it's my land down there.

Crossing private land to get to public land requres a Right of Way... or an access easement.... regardless of where that public land might be. There is lots of public land which is landlocked and the public may not legally access. Do so at your own risk.

[Lumatic]

So if I'm merrily rowing my Airstream down your stream and it sinks to the bottom I am then tresspassing.

[KMH25TWIN]

IM SO CONFUSED,
This was a timely forum for me as I just ordered several “boondocking books” as I’d like to take better advantage of public lands; I don’t especially enjoy trailer parks with swing sets. I’ve always been nervous about trespassing when out fly fishing, cycling, and camping. I know there will be those who say it is my responsibility to know the rules; and as threads above, to go to this office or that, or know the maps, to determine access; and I get that. But it is all a little intimidating. I’d really like to get “out there” but is it really all that hard. My recently acquired boondocking resources cover water and electricity conservation but fall way short of informing as to legal and ‘polite’ access. I certainly don’t want to trespass, or have a run-in with some rancher, but I also don’t want to just sit at home and stare at my Airstream. I know this reads as venting, but the subject is genuinely challenging, especially for one who wants to play by the rules. Thanks for reading.