A boondocking Airstream

[Burnside Bob]

Airstream says that they use a thermal barrier, and yes, they do. My photo shows a rib in my 2009 FC. There is 1/16th inch thick closed cell foam strip between the rib and the shell.



Yeah, you can hardly see it! While better than nothing, a 1/16th inch layer of foam isn't effective--insulation value is the product of R rating and the thickness of a material. If thickness is small, the R value of the install will also be small even if the material is a super insulator.

So maybe the answer is a different material for the ribs. A plastic, perhaps, with a similar coefficient of expansion to aluminum??

Sure would be nice to boondock with a thermally efficient trailer!!

[cwbiii]

Originally Posted by Burnside Bob

Airstream says that they use a thermal barrier, and yes, they do. My photo shows a rib in my 2009 FC. There is 1/16th inch thick closed cell foam strip between the rib and the shell.



Yeah, you can hardly see it! While better than nothing, a 1/16th inch layer of foam isn't effective--insulation value is the product of R rating and the thickness of a material. If thickness is small, the R value of the install will also be small even if the material is a super insulator.

So maybe the answer is a different material for the ribs. A plastic, perhaps, with a similar coefficient of expansion to aluminum??

Sure would be nice to boondock with a thermally efficient trailer!!

Regardless of what barrier you use, you still have the conduction through the aluminum rivets... Short of bonding the aluminum without the use of a metal system this problem is not going away... it is one of the "features" of that "cool" aluminum shell. There are other materials that conduct heat much less efficiently... like fiberglass. I had a couple AS fiberglass motor homes and they do not stand up as well as aluminum. If you want a true barrier then add another inch to the thickness of the shell and make a rib that is bonded aluminum and plastic. (or molded composites) Then the 2" of insulation plus the thermal barrier provided would keep the interior nice and cozy... and not to be prohibitively expensive to manufacture. You would have to give up the interior width and additional cost to get it though.

Chuck

[cwbiii]

Originally Posted by idroba

Once again the object of this thread and post was to list the reasonable and practical ideas that Airstream might consider incorporating in a Boondock version of it's trailers, things that are reasonably practical and could be done with low to moderate cost and might sell. It was not intended to be a place to post blue sky ideas of anything which might possibly be done, cost be damned, market be damned. Airstream is not, and will not, be a custom manufacturer of limited speciality trailers. There are one off custom shops that fill that nitch for those with the money, time, and inclination to have special work done.

Like all threads, this one can and has gone away from it's original intention, but I hope to bring it back, or have it killed as not very useful.

Maybe we have already exhausted the reasonable possibilities at this point.

Sometimes the best ideas come out of those insanely crazy proposals...
It is a process used by think tanks (groups like this forum) to develop new products. Often the wild idea provokes the thought process and other ideas form from it. In the end they take all those ideas and pick out the few that have significance... but those may not have come without the other wild proposals first.

Just something to think about...

Chuck

[KellySLC49]

Hello all. I've really appreciated everyone's comments since I'm building my 1949 18' Trailwind for boondocking. It will have 34 gal fresh and 43 gal grey tanks in the 6" frame, and an undetermined black tank that will sit on floor. I'm taking notes and will be using many of the suggestions here, so thank you! My list of must-haves is growing and I think I'll need a bigger fresh tank.

I've used closed-cell spray foam insulation in three homes - all built in the 1800s - and am planning on using it in my AS. Not trying to start another discussion on that, but I'm not worried about the movement inherent in a trailer. It's not only the R values that matter. It's also about eliminating air infiltration, which the foam would do. I'm also planning to put something on the ribs before I reinstall the interior skins - probably thin cork tape. You can't do a radiant barrier with a foamed AS, but I've always wondered why the shell wouldn't act as it's own radiant barrier by reflecting UV rays out, just like Prodex-type products.

I don't see AS using foam anytime soon, but they could easily switch to something like Prodex and a better rib thermal barrier and they could easily use a 5" - 6" deep frame to accommodate bigger tanks. Upgraded solar, and a better 12v system are no-brainers as well. As far as stopping conduction? I wonder how hard it would be to make the ribs out of carbon fiber? Hubby's carbon downhill bike can take a serious beating and has never creaked or failed. They're supposedly stronger than steel and CF is not as spendy as it used to be. My neighbor's a materials engineer who designs CF parts for aerospace ... We might need to chat

Oh, and AS could absolutely do a modular version like they had early on. When researching my trailer, I came across a sales brochure from the early 50s which included drawings of all their modular options and sample arrangements. Why not do it again in a boondocking line of trailers?

[rodsterinfl]

The modular idea would allow for configuration based on intended use including boondocking. Yes, another option would be tank size. I have a 39 gallon fresh tank but a 33 gallon black tank. I don't know why the black tank needs to be that big. Meanwhile the gray tank is 33 gal and fills quickly. If I could opt, I would take black down to 18 or so and increase the gray to 40 and the fresh to 47-Same total amount just adjusted.

[kidjedi]

New to Airstream/RV-ing, but boondocking has always been the dream (it seems like THE reason to do this... getting away, not getting even CLOSER to your neighbors and noise). I'm all for camaraderie and conversation, but I also want to get way away as often as possible.

I've got a 25' '72 Trade Wind gutted to the skin (starting from scratch is a serious advantage in overcoming all the "mistakes" AS makes in finishing out a mechanically fantastic and really cool looking trailer), and everything I'm doing is to maximize being in the wild as long as possible.

Regarding the insulation... I'm still baffled by people nay-saying spray foam. It gets into every nook and cranny (sealing instead of just filling), it's incredibly durable (if you use the right stuff, it doesn't crack and crumble like so many have claimed --most are speaking from their experience of the cheapo stuff you buy at Lowe's in an aerosol can), the closed cell doesn't absorb water like batt (actually repels water), and it adds structural integrity to your AS. It's been used in travel trailers forever, and the material has only improved in regard to durability. Also, what do you think every refrigerator truck running down the highway is lined with? They travel millions of miles on bumpy roads. If it didn't work, we wouldn't have cold food transport.

Prodex and Refelctix aren't going to do anything for you (outside of the psychological aspects of thinking you did something to help your insulation). Your AS is made of reflective material (aluminum foil!). Reflective material on either side of an air cavity is a good insulator, but the amount of air in the bubbles of these products does nothing (you need a bigger air cavity to be effective), so you are essentially just laying a layer of reflector next to an already reflective surface. When you do it, you usually use tape to seal up the cracks, so that helps, but it would be equally effective to just tape up the cracks and rivets (without spending money on the Reflectix). To be honest, thick, corrugated cardboard would probably be more effective (though it would absorb moisture).

The thermal bridge is an interesting problem. Yes, it's a huge issue where the ribs meet the interior skin. Some people are saying nothing can be done because of the rivets (even if you create a barrier, the aluminum rivets still penetrate), but the surface contact area of a rivet is pretty negligible compared to the entire flat surface of the rib, so creating a barrier is hardly wasted time just because the rivets pierce the barrier.

I would LOVE to use Aerogel for the thermal break, but I think it's going to be cost prohibitive, so I'm doing some tests comparing 65 mil EPDM rubber left over from a roofing job and the rolled, closed-cell, light blue poly that you use between a concrete foundation and the framing sill plate on a house.

I plan on being able to stay in my Airstream while skiing.

Other stuff: composting toilet (thinking about a "drain" or at least a larger tank for #1), huge batteries, lots of solar (especially here in Colorado), coated and reinforced underside for bumpy back roads, moving the a/c compressor from the roof to the tongue (more solar, less top heavy), etc.

FWIW... I have actually been considering the practicality of customizing a composing toilet so the removal system is all through the outside of the trailer. There would be an access panel like for the fridge, battery, water heater, etc., and "drawers" that you would empty from the access panel instead of carrying them through your cabin space.

[rodsterinfl]

That is a great idea. Imagine having some sort of track system to slide out/slide in tanks. This could help with upgrading replacement and of course draining at least in the case of the compost style.

[Photobum]

Enjoying this thread. I bought a new 25 FB Flying Cloud in August 2015. Added 16 inch wheels, 400W solar, 4 6v Lifeline batteries, and a 2000w Magna inverter/converter. Bike rack for a road bike and a mountain bike. Switched out faucets, putting Grohe in the kitchen and bathroom. Completely redesigned the AV compartment, adding a wi-fi booster and satellite tv.

I would have loved sprayed in insulation and wish it was an option. But for a $100M i have a house I can take anywhere and live comfortably. I tend to follow weather between 70 and 80 degrees. I spent four months in Mexico last winter, four months in the eastern Sierra this past summer, and am now located just south of Tucson for the winter.

I personally think Airstream provides a great generic product, that with some customization can become a superior product to anything else on the road. The funny thing is that Airstream owners have the ability to make the changes to improve their vehicles but profess that they would pay (a premium) to have Airstream do the work. My opinion is that a good dealer makes all the difference in the world.

I would recommend that anyone that has the option look at using Orange County Airstream (in Westminister, CA) for the improvements. They did mine and I am very happy with what my Airstream has become and the lifestyle that it affords me.

[kidjedi]

Originally Posted by Photobum

I would recommend that anyone that has the option look at using Orange County Airstream (in Westminister, CA) for the improvements. They did mine and I am very happy with what my Airstream has become and the lifestyle that it affords me.

I am really loving working on mine and seriously considering making a business out of it (in Colorado). I love the "starting point" of a gutted Airstream, and there are just so MANY cool things you can do to make them awesome.

[Photobum]

Look at Hofarc to get the business plan more defined.....

[KellySLC49]

Originally Posted by kidjedi

I would LOVE to use Aerogel for the thermal break, but I think it's going to be cost prohibitive, so I'm doing some tests comparing 65 mil EPDM rubber left over from a roofing job and the rolled, closed-cell, light blue poly that you use between a concrete foundation and the framing sill plate on a house.

I came across this stuff at AutoZone this weekend I'm going to look into. It's made of pulverized lava rock woven into a carbon-fiber-looking fabric. They sell it in a 1" x 50' roll for $45.00 to use for wrapping motorcycle headers to protect against heat burns. It's called DEI Titanium Header Wrap. If it can protect your legs against header burns, I wonder how it would work on the ribs of an airstream?

[kidjedi]

Looked up what you're talking about and found it here: Amazon.com: DEI 010127 2" Titanium Exhaust/ Header Wrap - 50': Car Electronics

Interesting. I'll have to check into it!

[wilsotr]

Here ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXbsK18NaRU

.... just slap an Airstream sticker on the side of this and you're good to go.

[cwf]

I would not put a "stone"/ abrasive around the AS ribs... Why do you want that?

[Caroyl]

Your composting idea sounds a lot like the cassette toilet we had in our Coleman popup trailer 15+ years ago ;-)

[djarrett]

Originally Posted by wilsotr

Here ....

.... just slap an Airstream sticker on the side of this and you're good to go.

I had one of these (the only one in the US). Don't get me wrong, it is a fantastic trailer, but it is certainly NOT an Airstream. Yes, we were able to put it on a ferry and camp on the beach with no hook ups for a week, BUT ... it was roughing it. No bathroom (popup privy with wag bags). No air-conditioning (which really makes it a two season camper) and only cooking outside (no indoor kitchen).

I sold it to a family in MOAB and now own the 25' Eddie Bauer. We have been out more in the 4 months we have owned the Airstream than we did in the 3 years owning the Conqueror Commander ...

[Brett - TTT]

Originally Posted by BoldAdventure

I too wouldn't buy a new one. Just because. Doesn't make sense to me. Even with cash, I'd still buy one that took the depreciation hit.

But there could be a unique niche market here. We've got companies like Timeless & Hoffarc that do resto-trailers. Maybe someone could get into the boon-docking upgrade business.

At Timeless we do a wide variety of new and vintage Airstream custom upfits including off-road and long term boondocking. We are the oldest and most experienced Airstream factory authorized upfitter.

[JamuJoe]

Brett,
It would be of interest to see some of the off road or boondocking mods done by Timeless. The website primarily showcases commercial jobs.


Safe Travels,
Jamu Joe

[andreasduess]

Originally Posted by Caroyl

Your composting idea sounds a lot like the cassette toilet we had in our Coleman popup trailer 15+ years ago ;-)

I know you were joking, but modern composting toilets are nothing like a cassette toilet. With normal use for two people, they don't need to be emptied more than once a month, if that, and the process is far less disgusting.

[BoldAdventure]

Has anyone ever installed one of the lift kits on a larger Airstream, say a 25 or 27?