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02-13-2004, 12:31 PM
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#1
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Rivet Master
1956 22' Flying Cloud
Durango
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: 1975 25' Tradewind
Posts: 3,491
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Skin replacement
I'm planning on replacing a 4x12 foot section of skin.
My plan is to drill out the rivets, remove the old skin, take the old and new skin to a sheet metal shop and have them make an exact duplicate - rivet holes and all.
As many of you know Peter H replaced a large section of skin on his motorhome - he and I have been discussing this, and his view is not to pre-drill the rivet holes.
Soooo what do all you skin experts think? If I don't predrill, then I'm not sure how should I drill the rivet holes - especially where the new skin overlaps the old skin (therefore cannot see where to drill the holes).
Ken J.
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02-13-2004, 12:54 PM
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#2
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4 Rivet Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 366
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Do as you please, but I would not pre drill rivet holes.
Before removing old skin, I mark reference points for the new AND old skin by superimposing new over old.
When new is in place, use old to find hidden holes in the frame.
Dick
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02-13-2004, 01:34 PM
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#3
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Rivet Master
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
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Skin replacement
Ken,
I definitely wouldn't pre-drill.
I would use the method Dick recommends, but rather than try to hit a new hole on top of a hidden hole, I would move the hole about 3/16" to the left, right, up or down so that you completely miss the old hole underneath. Otherwise, you will always be off by just a little, and that will cause wrinkles. So I would use the old hole pattern as a guide where NOT to put the new holes.
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02-13-2004, 02:16 PM
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#4
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Rivet Master
1956 22' Flying Cloud
Durango
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: 1975 25' Tradewind
Posts: 3,491
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Ohh
Now I think I understand what Peter was saying
Sorry I'm being a bit dense on this, please bear with me
So what I do is drill out a complete new set of holes all the way around the sheet?
I guess I wonder - doesn't that make swiss cheese out of the frame?
As I've read reports from the frame off restoration guys, I thought they used the same holes.
Guess thats why I'm confused......
Ken J.
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02-13-2004, 02:30 PM
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#5
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Just a member
1978 28' Argosy 28
Lutz
, Florida
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,549
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Ken,
I think the confusing bit is the frame off guys are talking about inside skin. The lower sections are just a few exterior rivets, not a whole panel.
__________________
Brett G
WBCCI #5501 AIR # 49
-------------------------
1978 Argosy 28 foot Motorhome
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. -- Plato
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02-13-2004, 02:34 PM
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#6
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418
2007 25' Safari FB SE
1958 22' Flying Cloud
1974 29' Ambassador
Yucca Valley
, California
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 1963 26' Overlander
Posts: 4,804
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I would first remove the section to be replaced, and trace it on the new metal. Cut out the shape you require afterwards, with an air shear for the straight cuts, or a nibbler for tight curves, if necessary.
Then use a grid of wide strips of masking tape to protect the new panel, lay the old panel on the new panel and mark the old hols on the masking tape.
This way you know where the ribs are, and where the old holes are, in approximation.
I would take markdoane's idea from here, using new holes.
One thing I am not sure of, is whether to go long rivet lines first, or short ones, to avoid wrinkles.
I guess down the center one on each rib would work, then up or down.
Good luck - this will be one of my projects in the future.
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02-13-2004, 02:43 PM
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#7
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Rivet Master
1956 22' Flying Cloud
Durango
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: 1975 25' Tradewind
Posts: 3,491
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Uwe
So do I then take the masking tape off then put back on again away from the old holes?
I thought drilling out the old rivets would be the toughest part.
I still wonder if would make swiss cheese out of the frame.
I have worked with the inside skin of my 59 - removing old panels and reassembling - also worked with the belly. Guess this is much more involved............
Ken J.
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02-13-2004, 02:49 PM
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#8
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Just a member
1978 28' Argosy 28
Lutz
, Florida
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,549
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Just a guess on my part on the rivet installation pattern but here goes.
Install all the top row rivets first starting at the center and working toward either side on the horizontal. I would then start down the ribs installing the rivets the same way, working horizontal across the ribs.
This of course assumes you have the trailer parked, chocked, and the stabilizers down. I would be sure it is level for good measure.
Working the rivet lines in this manner should eliminate the chance for wrinkles. The top row will need to be in the old holes so the repair looks right.
I would bet Andy from Inland could tell you for sure if you send him an email
__________________
Brett G
WBCCI #5501 AIR # 49
-------------------------
1978 Argosy 28 foot Motorhome
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. -- Plato
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02-13-2004, 03:02 PM
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#9
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Rivet Master
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
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Elaboration
Using Uwe's suggestion:
Dont move the tape, just drill the new holes a little to the side of the holes as marked on the tape. The entire set of holes in one dirction are all offset in the same direction.
You could even move each hole a little bit closer to the start point, so that at the other end of the row you would end up with one extra rivet hole.
Where you have vertical and horizontal rows intersecting, use the original hole location so that the rows line up.
The extra holes in the floor channel is not going to compromise the integrity. I would be more worried about loose rivets if you tried to match up the old holes and ended up being 1/16" off center.
Also, I would use Cleco temporary fasteners so that the sheet lies flat without wrinkles, then I would start in the center and work out.
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02-13-2004, 05:20 PM
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#10
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Rivet Master
LOST
, Hawaii
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,193
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I replaced my interior skin so had a bunch of holes to drill and wanted some uniformity in spacing of the rivets. I drilled 1/8" holes in 3/16" thick aluminum strip to use for a template, then used a spring loaded center punch to dimple the panels before I installed them.
John
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02-13-2004, 06:39 PM
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#11
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Rivet Master
1956 22' Flying Cloud
Durango
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: 1975 25' Tradewind
Posts: 3,491
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What do I do with the top row
I think I understand what your saying except where the new goes underneath the old - should I use the holes in the old skin and drill into the new skin?
Ken
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02-13-2004, 06:52 PM
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#12
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418
2007 25' Safari FB SE
1958 22' Flying Cloud
1974 29' Ambassador
Yucca Valley
, California
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 1963 26' Overlander
Posts: 4,804
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Well, I would likely not move the tape, but rather drill next to the rivet mark from the old sheet. This way you are not likely to hit the same old rivet hole again, which might be elongated by now or too large. Make new, tight, accurate holes, in both the new sheet, and the rib.
All the suggestions so far have been good ones, in my opinion.
I like the temporary fastener idea to affix the panel before securing it permanently. I wonder if one cold use double sided carpet tape on the ribs to hold the panel while drilling and riveting.
I own an air rivet gun, which is a huge improvement over a hand riveter.
Also, I purchased a rivet drill set from Andy at InlandRV. The drills he sold me are the best I have ever used for this purpose. I am still only on the second drill bit for the 1/8in rivets, broke one when I hit a frame section while removing a belly pan section.
My air riveter came from Sears a few years ago. It appears to be better quality than the ones available from harbor Freight etc. having the right tools makes a huge difference, even if you have to learn how to use them first.
Sometimes the panels are very tightly bonded with sealer. It feels like you missed a rivet, but the panel is actually glued in place..
Good luck!
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02-13-2004, 06:54 PM
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#13
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Rivet Master
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
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replace skin
Ken,
(regarding where the old skin goes over the new)
Yes, definitely. Just make sure to hold the drill nice and square. I assumed from your first post that where the old skin was on top of the new, you would drill straight through. The problem is where the new skin is on top of the old, it's almost impossible to get good alignment.
There are hole guides that will tranfer hole locations from underneath, but they only work for sheets that are less than about 12" from the edge.
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02-13-2004, 07:12 PM
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#14
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Rivet Master
1956 22' Flying Cloud
Durango
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: 1975 25' Tradewind
Posts: 3,491
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Got it. Thanks!
Uwe, now that I'm the new expert on skin replacement
what I plan to do is use Cleco's to hold the skin, get everythink lined up before I start riveting.
Ken J.
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02-13-2004, 08:57 PM
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#15
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Rivet Master
1959 22' Caravanner
Atlanta
, Georgia
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,197
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Johansen
Got it. Thanks!
Uwe, now that I'm the new expert on skin replacement
what I plan to do is use Cleco's to hold the skin, get everythink lined up before I start riveting.
Ken J.
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Are you getting this from Airparts? They have a little deal for spacing rivets that is not very expensive.
__________________
1959 22' Caravanner
1988 R20 454 Suburban.
Atlanta, GA
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02-13-2004, 11:30 PM
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#16
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Airstream Driver
1994 30' Excella
1992 35' Airstream 350
Austin
, Texas
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5,224
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Johansen
....
what I plan to do is use Cleco's to hold the skin, get everythink lined up before I start riveting.
Ken J.
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Cleco's are ok, if you dont have to use them to hold a very large panel with a curve like the roof. If all fails use a small screw (heaven forbid) on either end for the initial hold.
__________________
1994 30' Excella Front Kitchen Trailer
1990 25' Excella Travel trailer
1992 350LE Classic Touring Coach
AIR #13
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02-14-2004, 02:09 PM
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#17
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Rivet Master
1956 22' Flying Cloud
Durango
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: 1975 25' Tradewind
Posts: 3,491
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Toaster - I heard the best place to buy is Airparts - so I'll check with them on the spacer
Peter, once you understand what to do , the instructions do make sense
Here is a picture that shows one of the panels I'm talking about.
Ken J.
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02-14-2004, 02:11 PM
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#18
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Rivet Master
1956 22' Flying Cloud
Durango
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: 1975 25' Tradewind
Posts: 3,491
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Guess its hard to see in the picture - but there is a tear and a crease over the wheel well..... also a crease under the window in the same panel
Ken J.
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02-14-2004, 02:38 PM
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#19
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Just a member
1978 28' Argosy 28
Lutz
, Florida
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,549
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Ummm, Ken,
I am not sure how to break it to you so I will come straight out.
Your trailer in the above post is not a 75 tradewind. Looks more like a 58/59 Overlander to me
So really, what model is it?
__________________
Brett G
WBCCI #5501 AIR # 49
-------------------------
1978 Argosy 28 foot Motorhome
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. -- Plato
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02-14-2004, 02:51 PM
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#20
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Rivet Master
1956 22' Flying Cloud
Durango
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: 1975 25' Tradewind
Posts: 3,491
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Ahhhh, Brett
Your right - its a 59 Overlander International - although it does not have any Overlander badging on it. I just bought it last weekend to replace my 59 Traveler that I sold last June.
Really like the 50's trailers
Still have the Tradewind - that does not need any repair - we will keep the Tradewind until this one is fully restored, if thats what we decide to do with this one.
Ken J.
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