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truckasaurus · 01-25-2014, 09:14 AM

Universals (MS20470AD5-xx) won't stand out at all, the colour is very easily removed from the surface.

MarkR · 01-25-2014, 09:15 AM

The rivets I get from Aircraft Spruce have a coating that makes them look gold - but it's just a coating that will come off . . . and they are a little more "bulbous" than "braziers". I have, on occasion, taken the Rivet Shaver and made them look more like the originals . . . perhaps one day I'll shave them all, but right now I've got to keep moving towards the goal of actually using the trailer.

Aerowood · 01-25-2014, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truckasaurus

Hey Rippie, riviting in an area like the hold down plate, like you mentioned, I personally would not use an A (soft) rivet, If there's a scenario involving skins being torn by AD rivets I doubt you'd want the trailer back afterwards. I'm not the Airstream pro but just wanted to add my opinion here.

And yup you can roll on some sealant before assembly then shoot the rivets, too much and it'll just be a mess. Try to wipe off ALL sealant from the rivet tails before bucking them too.

I'm in agreemant with truck on this, the hold down plates shoud use the 2117 aka AD rivets. The one problem you may have though, is the rivet gun you bought my not have enough power to shoot the -12 rivets you are refering to earlier in the AD alloy. The thicker the materail being shot together the more energy that materail absorbs from the rivet gun and that energy is not being transfered to the bucking bar.

Most Aircraft rivet suppliers will reqire the complete part number of the rivet being ordered. So if you are ordering Universal head rivets, (because frankly speaking here, the braizer head rivets have not been used in the aviation industry for decades) the head style number is followed up by the Alloy code, then diameter in 32th's then a dash and then the length in 16th's. so lets break it all down. The MS20 is for most rivets as the lead in number.

MS20470AD5-4
470 head style, in this case universal head
AD- alloy, in this case 2117 aluminum, A would be 1100 aluminum
5- diameter in 32th's
- is dash
4- length in 16th's so a 4 would be 1/4" long measured from the mating surface of the head

Hope this all helps

goshawks00 · 01-25-2014, 11:36 AM

What does the MS20 stand for?

truckasaurus · 01-25-2014, 12:04 PM

military specification

Hittenstiehl · 01-25-2014, 01:10 PM

Glad several others posted reply's as I would not have been able to answer your question. And I learned several things by their reply's (as usual). I was wrong anyway as we just purchased cleco's at Spruce but talked about rivets. At the time we were not sure which rivets to get so we waited and will possibly order from them in the future.

We have however ordered Rivets from "Tate Wire & Terminal Inc" in Davisburg MI. They may be wholesale only as we ordered and paid but ordered through our friends account.

goshawks00 · 01-25-2014, 02:14 PM

and the 20............?

truckasaurus · 01-25-2014, 05:34 PM

MS20 means Military Standard specification as far as I understand it, what the exact nature of the spec is I don't know and has to date not really been something for me to investigate. You can however use AN, Air Force-Navy instead of MS20 and end up in the same place if that works better.

rippie · 01-26-2014, 07:38 PM

Aerowood-
I have confidence in your experience. It seems that universals are a good option based particularly on their availability. So I have two questions:
1) Do you recommend the 2117 alloy exclusively, or do you only use these for structural repairs and the soft for seams?
2) What rivet gun do you recommend. You mentioned mine may be underpowered for ADs. If mine will work for some, but not all I would hope there was another you could recommend that may be more suitable (and preferably versatile). But since the structural areas are the only ones I am solid riveting, my preference if I have to go with one over the other would be one made to handle the 2117s of 1/8 to 5/32 diameter. Unfortunately my budget or space does not allow an unlimited supply of rivet guns.
Hope I am making sense.

rippie · 01-27-2014, 07:18 AM

To reiterate, I have the rivet gun from VTS. Some doubt was expressed as to whether this will be powerful enough to properly expand the harder alloy rivets. I would be grateful for any recommendations/advice on obtaining a proper rivet gun for this application. (Most likely 1/8 to 5/32 diameter of approx. 3/4" length)

Aerowood · 01-27-2014, 07:53 AM

I only mentioned that your 3X rivet gun may not have the power to shoot an AD rivet that is a -12 in length. This would require that the total materiel stackup for the -12 length would be in the neighborhood of 9/16ths thick. I did not inquire as to where on your trailer, are you going to have that materiel thickness to shoot together. That's a pretty good buildup. The 3x gun you purchased has more then enough power to shoot 99.9% of the rivets on your trailer, in AD's. For the bulk of your shooting you will be using -4's and -5's.

Aerowood · 01-27-2014, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goshawks00

and the 20............?

I talked to our Aircraft Structural Engineer here at work as to what the 20 stood for and and he didn't know either. We thought it might mean rivet but there are other p/n like clevis pins that start with MS20 also, so that theory went out the door to. So then we looked at the now obsolete AN numbers and if you convert the AN number to MS without adding the 20 you get a part number that is not a rivet, as that number was already used in the MS system. So the only guess we could come up with is that when converting from AN to MS they had to add the 20 because the original AN rivet p/n or a portion of it was already in use by the MS spec.

One other thing that is changing is the DOD is discontinuing support for some the MS system specs. and a lot (about 500 right know) of former MS numbers are being supported by the AIA (Aerospace Industries Association) and will be NASM numbers.

goshawks00 · 01-27-2014, 11:58 AM

Thanks you for searching it out!!

rippie · 01-27-2014, 02:53 PM

The area that I am trying to secure with rivets in the most acceptable way that my means and skills will allow is the rear belt line. I am good in rivet supply for all except the hold down plate area. I am using a jack to squeeze the c-channel to the hold down to the skin. I placed a 1/2" rivet and was able to see only the tail barely on the inside. I did not put a caliper on it, but there was not doubt I did not have enough to buck properly. I decided to search for 1" rivets because I thought I could always cut shorter. I figured on some definite trial and error to determine the actual proper length. I logically assumed that 3/4" length would probably be sufficient, just did not want to risk any more downtime (of which I am enjoying today).

Doing the math: I did add a sheet of Alum that is roughly equivalent to skin material thickness in my attempt to rectify the problem of water seepage under the ply from bumper construction. Even with this, I feel that there should still be more bite from a 1/2", but not from what I could see. It's like the math is not adding up(sum being greater than parts). It made me wonder if the hold down angle may be slightly thicker than original. Any way, still looking at longer than 1/2" based on my observations. So I guess I'll just try the rivet gun I have unless someone can make another recommendation to save me before I make a mistake here.

Game plan: Drive 3/4" length AD(hard alloy) rivet in 1/8" or 5/32" diameter to rear hold down plate area with rivet gun from VTS (?not sure what 3x means?). Any suggested improvements, feedback, or thoughts? Silence will be assumed to indicate consent.

I really do not mean to dwell on this but I would like to proceed with confidence.

Aerowood · 01-27-2014, 03:14 PM

Why are you having to use a jack to hold things tight? Is your new hold down plate a 90 degree angle? How thick is your hold down plate? Could you post a picture?

rippie · 01-27-2014, 03:48 PM

You may remember replying to my post about my concern about space between my hold down and c-channel. You recommended bridging the gap without shimming (with Alum strip from Home Depot). So I set up a jack to pull them flush.
I don't know if it is an iPhone thing, but every time I upload the picture it shows up in the "attachment" screen as uploaded. When I close that window to return to my message window, the message is erased and no picture. I'll try one more time. No joy. Maybe I'll try later. It's worked before, but not always.

Aerowood · 01-27-2014, 04:40 PM

Are these fasteners going to be covered up by the exterior lower molding, because if they are why don't you just install some #8 stainless steel machine screws.

rippie · 01-27-2014, 09:15 PM

OK Aerowood-
I have now spun full circle on the airstream wheel. I first was going to do anything I could to avoid buck riveting and the related expenses, opting instead for olympics. I posted a thread "screws vs rivets" where I posed the question of using screws with locknuts. I have since found that while the steel may be strong, it is also more brittle. So where you would use rivets there is more desire for its bending without breaking (tensile?) properties. Most of the literature claims that a rivet is stronger than a bolt. And I was told that Olympics were not structural. So I finally gave in to my personal stubbornness and got the solid riveting kit.

With that being said, maybe the particular area (hold down) in my situation with (questionable thickness for a strong rivet setting) changes the recommendations and considerations. So my head is swimming from all the information I have been trying to process on this. And, yes, it will be covered up by the rub rail. Thanks for hanging with me on this.