View Poll Results: What finish for that old-time 50's look?
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Spar Varnish?
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9 |
32.14% |
Shellac?
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6 |
21.43% |
Tung Oil?
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5 |
17.86% |
Polyurethane?
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4 |
14.29% |
Other - please explain
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4 |
14.29% |
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02-07-2009, 11:17 PM
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#21
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Rivet Master
1956 22' Safari
2015 27' Flying Cloud
Vintage Kin Owner
Conifer/Evergreen
, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 12,702
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Kip ~
Do you use water or oil based polyurethane over the shellac?
I have a test sample of shellac with oil based polyurethane right now...I didn't have water based - will pick some up tomorrow. So far it looks good.
The first coat of spar varnish on my sample is still tacky...I'm afraid my work conditions are not clean enough or warm enough right now to do all those coats of all the cabinets and sit around waiting for it to dry - we do want to finish this project this year!
Shari
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02-08-2009, 08:35 AM
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#22
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1972 Travelux Princess 25
Cobourg
, Ontario
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,059
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If it was easy everyone would be doing it. Major props from those in the know for good finishes. Boo to cheap plasticky looking finishes.
__________________
Living in the trailer park of sense, looking out the window at a tornado of stupidity.
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02-08-2009, 08:42 AM
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#23
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Rivet Master
1971 21' Globetrotter
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
Arvada
, Colorado
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsideOut
Kip ~
Do you use water or oil based polyurethane over the shellac?
I have a test sample of shellac with oil based polyurethane right now...I didn't have water based - will pick some up tomorrow. So far it looks good.
The first coat of spar varnish on my sample is still tacky...I'm afraid my work conditions are not clean enough or warm enough right now to do all those coats of all the cabinets and sit around waiting for it to dry - we do want to finish this project this year!
Shari
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I use oil base, I think it flows out better, but I have not tried water for some years now. I don,t like the Spar Varnish because it takes so blessed long to dry. Mineral spirit thinned ploy drys fairly fast and, and if its wiped on, it keeps all of the nibs out of the finish. I then put the pad in a baggy and freeze until needed for next coat, so no cleanup. I just use disposable latex gloves to keep the mess of my hands. If you need to sand between coats I just use fine steel wool.
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02-08-2009, 09:01 AM
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#24
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Rivet Master
1964 22' Safari
Elyria
, Ohio
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 780
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Shari, You do not have all year for this project.
I have to say that I do enjoy all the suggestions from everyone with more knowledge and experience than you or I.
This is what I suggest. Go out and get a small can of Helmsman Spar Urethane from Minwax. It comes in gloss, semi-gloss and satin finishes. Apply two or three coats with a foam brush, a little light sanding between coats.
You will be happy with the results. The directions are simple, drying times are fast and the time saved will make you happy.
This is a great thread and I am looking forward to seeing what you decide, and what your finish job looks like.
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02-08-2009, 10:43 AM
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#25
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Rivet Master
1956 22' Safari
2015 27' Flying Cloud
Vintage Kin Owner
Conifer/Evergreen
, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 12,702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganaraska
If it was easy everyone would be doing it. Major props from those in the know for good finishes. Boo to cheap plasticky looking finishes.
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I agree - for those that can take the time and control their work conditions (cleanliness & temperature). We know our limitations, sorry to disappoint you. I think a poorly applied Spar Varnish looks worse - I think you would agree. I just don't want junk imbedded in the layers because it doesn't dry fast enough in our less than controlled working environment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerowood
This is a great thread and I am looking forward to seeing what you decide, and what your finish job looks like.
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Thanks ~
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverhawk
I have to say that I do enjoy all the suggestions from everyone with more knowledge and experience than you or I.
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Yes, thanks to everybody for all the input!
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverhawk
is a great thread and I am looking forward to seeing what you decide, and what your finish job looks like.
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I'll definitely let you know what we decide and of course, post pics!
Shari
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02-08-2009, 11:56 AM
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#26
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Rivet Master
1963 19' Globetrotter
Currently Looking...
Orion
, Illinois
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 714
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I have been a professional finisher for many years and love hearing the opinions on the different finish products out there. My personal choice for cabinetry in a trailer would be either lacquer or a quality oil based varnish. I often use cut orange shellac as a first coat as it will give a nice amber tone and a depth to the finish. Polyurethanes are not something I don't use as they tend to discolor over time and are hard to repair. Sheen is just a matter of preference as most products are avilable in whatever you like.
For my own trailer I used a varnish finish since I finished most of the cabinets in place and did not want to risk damage to the fridge or catalytic heater from lacquer overspray. This meant a lot more work and drying time . I have some pictures posted ander "refinished at last".
Reguardless of the finish you choose, protect it. A good coat of paste wax (such as Johnsons) works wonders.
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02-09-2009, 10:37 AM
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#27
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Rivet Master
1956 22' Safari
2015 27' Flying Cloud
Vintage Kin Owner
Conifer/Evergreen
, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 12,702
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So I have taken everybody's input and done a series of tests. Attached is a list of the samples we are testing and products we are using. I'll post pictures after the final coat and let you know what we decide.
Shari
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02-09-2009, 01:08 PM
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#28
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4 Rivet Member
1963 24' Tradewind
San Diego
, California
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 360
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Lookin forward to the pics of the samples.
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02-10-2009, 04:30 PM
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#29
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1972 Travelux Princess 25
Cobourg
, Ontario
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,059
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 63air
I have been a professional finisher for many years and love hearing the opinions on the different finish products out there. My personal choice for cabinetry in a trailer would be either lacquer or a quality oil based varnish. I often use cut orange shellac as a first coat as it will give a nice amber tone and a depth to the finish. Polyurethanes are not something I don't use as they tend to discolor over time and are hard to repair. Sheen is just a matter of preference as most products are avilable in whatever you like.
For my own trailer I used a varnish finish since I finished most of the cabinets in place and did not want to risk damage to the fridge or catalytic heater from lacquer overspray. This meant a lot more work and drying time . I have some pictures posted ander "refinished at last".
Reguardless of the finish you choose, protect it. A good coat of paste wax (such as Johnsons) works wonders.
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What kind of varnish did they use in trailers to give the birch that warm campfire glow? Do you know what I mean? When all trailers had birch interiors before the white paneling came in?
__________________
Living in the trailer park of sense, looking out the window at a tornado of stupidity.
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02-10-2009, 05:10 PM
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#30
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Rivet Master
1956 22' Safari
2015 27' Flying Cloud
Vintage Kin Owner
Conifer/Evergreen
, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 12,702
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THAT's the $64,000 question ~
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganaraska
What kind of varnish did they use in trailers to give the birch that warm campfire glow? Do you know what I mean? When all trailers had birch interiors before the white paneling came in?
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That's the look I'm going for. I know it is a brittle hard finish - at areas where it's chipping off, it's kind of thick, yellow, brittle and flakey if that gives any clue. If's not really checkered, but where's its scratched, it kinda lifts. I might be able to get a picture of a damaged portion of a panel if it would help ID it.
I don't want to replicate the brittle & flakey characteristics though ~
Shari
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02-11-2009, 07:59 AM
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#31
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1972 Travelux Princess 25
Cobourg
, Ontario
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,059
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I believe that is the old fashioned varnish or spar varnish. It is not brittle or yellow when new. It only gets that way after 40 or 50 years.
On boats the rule is to give it a fresh coat of varnish every year. Some old yachts have had the wood revarnished this way for 100 years and are still good. Of course this is on wood that is used outdoors and exposed to salt air, for the interior of a trailer this revarnishing is not necessary, well maybe every 30 years.
Would like to hear from some real experts on this.
__________________
Living in the trailer park of sense, looking out the window at a tornado of stupidity.
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02-15-2009, 09:16 AM
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#32
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Rivet Master
1963 19' Globetrotter
Currently Looking...
Orion
, Illinois
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 714
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Age does it
The "mellow" colors of some wood/finishes are caused by aging ,they did not look that way when they were new. An expert finisher can replicate the aged look through a variety of techniques.
A proper finish on interior wood will last more than your lifetime you will never have to redo it. Just remember to protect it, keep it clean, polish/ wax it ( never ever use an aerosol polish product).
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02-15-2009, 09:24 AM
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#33
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4 Rivet Member
Waters
, Michigan
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 321
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chances are very good that the interior finishes were not spar varnish,even back then..most likely a oil based varnish..
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02-15-2009, 10:07 AM
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#34
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Rivet Master
1977 Argosy Minuet 6.0 Metre
1964 26' Overlander
1977 25' Tradewind
Eastern
, Washington
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 865
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To be honest I am very partial to Lacquer.
If you are looking for a mellow golden aging of a finish, you should look to something like a cellulose lacquer.
If you would like to see what it looks like after aging. Take a look at old guitar tops. The better guitars were finished with cellulose lacquer and they age with a golden patina, reminiscent of old birch panel.
Dependant on which type you buy it can be sprayed or brushed, just make sure of you have good ventilation.
My Grand Mother lived in a trailer from 1948 to 1989. She said that you should clean and wax every year and her trailer was beautiful birch with a depth in the finish that started 6" off the wood. Murphy's Oil soap and paste wax once a year for 40 years. The original finish was Lacquer.
__________________
Peace
Gary
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02-21-2009, 07:56 AM
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#35
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Cincinnati
, Ohio
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 131
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Shari,
The original finish from the factory was lacquer up til 1971. The factory also recommends using Danish oil for touch up work.
I am planning on using Waterlox on my cabinetry. It is easy to apply, great depth, tough as nails, and easy to fix if it gets damaged.
Woody
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02-21-2009, 07:59 AM
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#36
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Rivet Master
1963 19' Globetrotter
Currently Looking...
Orion
, Illinois
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 714
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The finish I stripped in my 63 was a lacquer finish ,which is what I prefer to use, due to ease of application . My own opinion is that spar varnish is great for boats but not really what you need for interior work. Its big plus is UV resistance.
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02-21-2009, 11:22 AM
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#37
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Rivet Master
1957 22' Caravanner
Port Hadlock
, Washington
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody.303
Shari,
The original finish from the factory was lacquer up til 1971. The factory also recommends using Danish oil for touch up work.
I am planning on using Waterlox on my cabinetry. It is easy to apply, great depth, tough as nails, and easy to fix if it gets damaged.
Woody
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Woody, that looks like interesting stuff. How does the dry time on it compare to spar varnish?
cheers,
steve
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02-21-2009, 03:48 PM
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#38
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Cincinnati
, Ohio
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 131
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Steve,
That's not an easy question to answer without a long drawn out explanation. Others here on the forums might like the conclusions/observations that I've made. Please forgive me if this is tedious as I just happen to be the type of person that over-researches a topc. Here goes:
Similar to spar varnish, the major disadvantage of Waterlox is the dry time, it is veeeeeeeerrrrry slow. It soaks deeply into the wood, and usually requires at least three coats. Each layer will have to set up for a minimum of 8 hours between re-coats.
It will then off-gas, and harden, for up to two weeks, depending on temp and humidity. If you are super sensitive to smelly things, wait a month.
Waterlox was originally formulated for gym floors back in the 1930's, and it is still very popular today for woodworking enthusiasists. (Polyurethane is now considered the premier choice for hardwood floors.) Because Waterlox tends to soak into the wood, there is little chance of flaking or cracking. Waterlox gives that deep shine that "pops" the grain similar to spar varnish and shellacs. It also doesn't yellow nearly as fast as most other types of finish.
The other advantage is the cold weather performance of Waterlox. Because it is tung oil molecularly bonded to a phenolic resin, it tends to maintain flexibility in temperature extremes. It is also UV resistant, but not to the degree of spar varnish. (For those, like me, that absolutely have to know, phenolic resins are used to make pool balls, epoxies, and many other familiar products. The tung oil keeps it flexible, and maintains the UV resistance.)
Polyurethanes, on the other hand, sometimes tend to yellow and crack when subjected to cold temperatures. This may be due to the fact that the poly sits on top of the wood instead of getting soaked into the grain. I've also heard of humidity extremes causing it to turn milky, though I've never seen it myself. A spar varnish polyurethane, a.k.a. spar urethane, (such as the Minwax product easily obtainable at Home Depot) is an attempt to rectify this characteristic and add UV resistance. I will give credit where credit is due, and say that polyurethanes are much better than they were even ten years ago. I like poly for indoor projects, and use it quite a bit for tables, turned bowls, hardwood floors and other misc. projects. Because of its kid tested durability, it is great for kitchen tables. However, it is difficult to touch up and has a "plastic" look to it.
True spar varnish (often confused with the modern spar urethane) is made from boiled linseed oil, and tends to yellow then darken with time. However, the beautiful deep shine, easy touchup characteristics, flexibility on moving parts, and UV resistance have made it a favorite for boat owners. Most antique furniture was finished with boiled linseed oil, which also explains why most pieces are now almost black in color.
As Janet's husband mentioned, lacquer is also a good, durable, non-yellowing choice. I don't have much experience using it other than painting cars though. I can safely say that a large percentage of cabinet manufacturers use lacquer, but mostly because of the super fast dry times. This is changing with EPA regulations, and faster drying products available now. It is most advantageous to get the product made and shipped out the door ASAP when furniture is mass-produced. This is probably also why the Airstream factory used it. I have recently developed skin allergies, and can't be exposed to it anymore. For those that are planning on using lacquer, please use a respirator and gloves.
I've never used shellac, but I do know that shellac is "hard as a rock", and that makes me wonder about flexibility issues when used in a moving, flexing, swaying trailer. If others have used it with success, then I'm just paranoid.
I'm not an expert in wood finishes, and these are just my observations. I've chosen Waterlox for various reasons, and I'm willing to wait for the drying time, but it might not work for everyone. I hope this helps.
Woody
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02-21-2009, 04:08 PM
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#39
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Rivet Master
1957 22' Caravanner
Port Hadlock
, Washington
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 864
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Thanks, Woody, not tedious at all. Looks like Waterlox is available at our little hometown hardware store, so I'll check it out further. Appreciate the info.
cheers,
steve
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02-21-2009, 07:21 PM
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#40
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Cincinnati
, Ohio
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 131
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Steve,
After using some of the product, put clean pebbles or bearings in the bottle to bring it level of the liquid back up to the top. Any oxygen inside the bottle will harden the product in just a few months.
Good luck,
Woody
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