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Old 07-06-2010, 10:04 AM   #1
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Removing Queen bed from 25' International - Advice?

I don't currently own this Airstream, but hope to soon. The wife and I have been looking for a late-model (2008-2011) 25' International FB for many, many months, and will be buying one soon, even if it means buying new.

Once we find the right one, we have plans to remove the queen bed and customize the front "bedroom" with a desk along the curb-side wall and a sofa along the street-side wall. I'm wondering whether any of you seasoned restorers have any advice for such a project?

Specifically, I'm curious what components are installed under the queen bed that will need to be relocated, probably within this new furniture? Also, what "scars" will removing the queen bed leave that will need to be repaired?

Thanks so much for any wisdom you could pass on.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:28 AM   #2
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I think your job might be easier to get a twin bed model. Do pay attention to exterior storage doors for your selection and plan accordingly.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:45 AM   #3
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That model has a sofa and dinette (works well as a desk).

Where would you sleep?
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:49 AM   #4
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The queen bed model has the Power Converter Charger right in the middle of the bedroom. I would recomend the Twin bed Flying Cloud version or a 27' FB for such a modification.
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Old 07-06-2010, 01:04 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post
I think your job might be easier to get a twin bed model. Do pay attention to exterior storage doors for your selection and plan accordingly.
I originally had planned to go this route, but two things set me on my current trajectory:
  1. The queen bed minimizes the amount of attachments to the walls that we'll have to remove.
  2. We're pretty dead-set on the "Wenge" interior of the International CCD, and it is not available in a twin bed configuration.

Thanks for the note about the exterior storage doors. I suppose those may lead directly under the queen bed, huh.
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Old 07-06-2010, 01:18 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by dkottum View Post
That model has a sofa and dinette (works well as a desk).

Where would you sleep?
I plan on "permanently" mounting our iMac to this new desk. I need a dedicated work space where I can close the door and be away from my 2 y/o son from time-to-time. Renovating the "bedroom" into a sort of "den" seemed like the most prudent way of doing that.

To that end, we'll also use the iMac as a secondary TV, for the occasional rainy movie night, sitting on a convertible sleeper sofa just opposite the desk. The idea is to sleep on this convertible sofa, too, perhaps also installing one of Airstreams "loft" beds above the sofa for the boy to sleep on.
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Old 07-06-2010, 01:26 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by NeatAirstream View Post
The queen bed model has the Power Converter Charger right in the middle of the bedroom. I would recomend the Twin bed Flying Cloud version or a 27' FB for such a modification.
Ahh, that is good to know (and disappointing)! As I replied earlier, we're pretty sold on the CCD's "wenge" interior, and the details of our renovation plans may actually be more fluid than our desire for the International.

The 27' is a good option, but because of the limits of our tow vehicle (Jeep Commander 4.7L Hemi) and plans to boondock frequently, it's much less desirable than the 25. Starting to feel like I've dreamed myself into a pickle.

If we ordered new, would Airstream be able to mount the Power Converter Charger elsewhere and omit the queen bed altogether (after the $500 change fee, of course)??
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Old 07-06-2010, 01:55 PM   #8
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The crossways side queen in the front will have a side exterior storage door under the head of the bed under the window street side. You do not have to use that door but it exists. Under the desk or couch it can still offer storage. However the converter as Colonial mentioned will need to be moved to under the desk or flip out couch bed. I am not certain if the water heater is located between the bedroom wall and bathroom wall on that same side. I sometimes carry the IMac in the closet. Are you certain you need to permanently alter the furniture and layout to work comfortably? At the foot of the queen and at the corner you may be able to put a permanent base for desk and IMac and possibly a drawer or two without moving the bed and using the bed as a seat.

Having had a 25' and 27" the 27' may not require but is beneficail to have a bigger tow vehicle. I pulled a Classic 25 and 27 with a Expy (150) and though not ideal it performed well under the circumstances. Classics are 1,000# heavier than the CCDs because of the weight of corian and oak cabinetry. Think seriously of the 27" it fits everywhere the 25' would be put. No one wants a site that tight to be in anyway, right?
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:03 PM   #9
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Good Vendor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeatAirstream View Post
The queen bed model has the Power Converter Charger right in the middle of the bedroom. I would recomend the Twin bed Flying Cloud version or a 27' FB for such a modification.
Patrick - you did a nice job of NOT mentioning that you've got a USED 27 FB Classic with twins - in your inventory.

I've looked at it several times - just can't get past liking the International better - but the pleather couches, oh my. I'm no slut, but I was tempted.

The twins in either the 25 FB or the 27 FB make the bedroom a ROOM - otherwise it's a big bed with very little walking around space. Still lurking, still waiting, still patient. The right unit will eventually "speak" to me.

Paula
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:06 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worksology View Post
I originally had planned to go this route, but two things set me on my current trajectory:
  1. The queen bed minimizes the amount of attachments to the walls that we'll have to remove.
  2. We're pretty dead-set on the "Wenge" interior of the International CCD, and it is not available in a twin bed configuration.
Thanks for the note about the exterior storage doors. I suppose those may lead directly under the queen bed, huh.
Like the WENGE? - Not available with twins? Wrongo bongo. Click "Classifieds" Click Late model units. Go down about 7 ads. And he's in TEXAS. (You'll just generally find about 5 queens for every twin.)
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:06 PM   #11
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A couple of things come to mind . . .

You would miss the comfort and convenience of the dedicated bed, more so when you want to compute and she wants to sleep. The private bedroom is also good for the little one's naps.

Could Airstream custom-build this conversion for you, using one of their sofa-beds, for about the same money?

Could you trade for a van as tow vehicle, setting up the permanent office inside, allowing a wide range of used or new Airstream models for family life?
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:25 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Foiled Again View Post
Like the WENGE? - Not available with twins? Wrongo bongo. Click "Classifieds" Click Late model units. Go down about 7 ads. And he's in TEXAS. (You'll just generally find about 5 queens for every twin.)
Sorry, I meant in the 25' configuration. I've been back and forth between every permutation of 23/25/27 and International/Flying Cloud/Safari in recent years and always come back to 25' International CCD. Maybe I'm being defiantly picky, but I've never been anything but picky!

I probably shouldn't rule out the 27' altogether, especially since I'm considering making these layout changes. My rationale has always been a combination of tow vehicle capacity, maneuverability, and general attractiveness (the 25' fits the bill for attractive proportions).

(There's probably another reason I skipped over that classified -- besides being 27' -- it's mislabeled as a "classic" and I'm definitely not looking for that.)
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:45 PM   #13
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You would miss the comfort and convenience of the dedicated bed, more so when you want to compute and she wants to sleep. The private bedroom is also good for the little one's naps.
Haha, yes, so true. The mutual exclusiveness of those two activities (sleeping & computing) is likely a real problem with this layout, but one we've considered and decided not to be a deal-breaker. I guess the question is: "would we trade a dedicated bed for a dedicated desk" and so far we've said "yes" but I'm open to the possibility that we're crazy. The truth is that the dedicated desk is what's going to help pay for this whole crazy dream.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkottum View Post
Could Airstream custom-build this conversion for you, using one of their sofa-beds, for about the same money?
I don't know how it possibly could be "for about the same money" but I would certainly love for Airstream to do this instead of me, ESPECIALLY if we're starting with a new trailer. For Airstream to do it, we're starting with, say a $70k trailer + $500 change fee + AS's cost of modifications. For us to do it ourselves, we're starting with, say, $50k trailer + our costs of modifications. I don't see how I could spend more than $20,000 making these relatively minor changes myself.

(But of course I don't mean to imply that there are no other benefits to buying new & having Airstream themselves make these mods.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkottum View Post
Could you trade for a van as tow vehicle, setting up the permanent office inside, allowing a wide range of used or new Airstream models for family life?
This is such a great suggestion. I'm not sure I'm interested in your exact suggestion, but it's a good reminder to think out of the box and not get locked into wherever my linear thinking brought me. If there are other ways of achieving the same end (dedicated desk space, preferably NOT in the main living space), I'm wide open to new ideas.

Thanks everyone! This is so helpful for me.
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:49 PM   #14
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Baby I HAVE the 25 FB!

Granted mine is a Safari Special Edition, but let me tell you what your WIFE will find appealing in the 27. But I too like the International in any of it's 4 versions (Black woodwork, Wenge, Ocean Breeze Serenity)
  • SWMBO (she who must be obeyed) will like the size of the closet!
  • The pantry in the 25 will make you say dirty words every time you want to store a cereal box. The 27 is a real pantry!
  • With twins you even get two hanging closets in the bedroom - Convert one to a linen closet by adding shelves or use it as a tuck away for the computer - keeping it safe while traveling.
  • Throw out one mattress or flip it over and double it and you've got the base for a desk, dresser, workstation, whatever.
  • Intimacy - hey you've got kids? Look at the big closet - stuff them inside, slide a bar across the handles - 20 minutes of free time. Otherwise? Lucy&Desi twins - the kids won't think there's anything to interrupt and can be put into a coma with s'mores.
  • You and SWMBO will hate making up the foldout bed every night, AND you'll hate crawling over each other to take a 2:00 AM comfort stop, And I've never found an RV convertable that's really comfortable.
  • Tow vehicle. You could have this Airstream for 20 years - the tow vehicle will be replaced in 2-5 years if you don't "forget" and leave the keys in the ignition. If you do? (It's marginal, but if you'd been to Alumapalooza and seen what the Canadians tow with you'd produce some "wenge" yourself!)
It doesn't cost anything to look - and the only reason I'm not all over that 27 FB myself is that I'm in Virginia. I talked to the guy selling it. Look at list for a new 25 FB, make wenge, call the number in the AD and ask price. Holy wenge!

Best wishes whatever you decide.

Paula
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Old 07-06-2010, 03:17 PM   #15
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Tis true listen to the woman. Most go bigger. I know it's a big step but the facts show you may soon adjust and lust for more, honest. Although 25 is a very sweet spot for an Airstream. Go used to experiment. They will make more or there will be another deal down the road but buying used let's you more easily afford switching. The new depreciation hit is a RUDE awakening though they say these hold their value better. Even more so since you are so particular this is your first and learning experience. Few hit it "right" the first time out. There is no magic formula fits all so no one can really "know" what will be the one you want to end up with when all is said and done...
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Old 07-06-2010, 03:18 PM   #16
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hmmm, fun is where you find it.

well, I've been on this forum for about a year and I keep bumping into Paula VA-6, and from what I read, I cannot wait to meet her. You go gal!
good wise words from her, btw. I think it was 2air that said: "...all these A/S traylas punch the same size hole in the air..." I met a gentleman at Ft Stevens, OR this spring and he was in a 25'r, said if he had it to do over again, it'd be the 27. So, there is another 2 cents. But, I am 63 and still kicking myself that I didn't get my family into an airstream years ago, so you are on the right track, and used sure looks good through $green$ colored glasses...
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Old 07-06-2010, 03:28 PM   #17
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Brilliant, Paula! You make one hell of a case for the 27' but I'm disappointed you couldn't squeeze one or two more wenge jokes in there!

Honestly, I'm not that far behind you. I recognize a lot of the same benefits in the 27'. I just know that forcing myself to be more frugal or efficient is a lot more practical than forcing a 27-footer somewhere it doesn't want to go. Having not done any fulltime RVing up to now, I cannot vouch for that with personal experience, but it seems to be a common (and obvious) downside of the 27'.

My Jeep has a GTW of 7500 lbs. The 27's GVWR is 7600 lbs, which means we couldn't come close to loading it to capacity (even if we maxed out the Jeep's capacity, which I'm nervous enough about with the 7200 lb GVWR of the 25'). As you say, a tow vehicle isn't forever, and with the savings over a new trailer, we could probably afford to upgrade to something beefier anyway. I've just got an funny feeling about the 27'... like I'm getting above or ahead of myself, or like I'm going to regret it in a fundamentally unchangeable way.

I'll talk to SWMBO tonight and see what she thinks of the 27' in Texas.

Even if we were to go with the twin configuration, I don't see a way around removing both beds and proceeding with my original plan. A twin bed, beyond being "dedicated", surely can't compete even with a convertible sofa, in terms of comfortably sleeping two, crawling over each other at 2 a.m., etc.

Thanks!

Josh
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Old 07-06-2010, 03:57 PM   #18
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Josh - The twins are good for sleeping - and if you've read the Kama Sutra, you might find there are certain variations where they might be superior for other stuff. (Leave the kids with the grandparents OK?)

look at this as an idea

Amazon.com: Adjustable Height Lift Top Coffee Tables: Kitchen & Dining

I spotted just the hinges somewhere but am too lazy to do that search. I am single, fulltime, and I sew, and work from home. My 3rd Airstream (How do you think I got the name Foiled AGAIN) will have twins - I might just convert one to a desk/workstation OR use this option. When retracted it would hide under the 2nd the mattress - which would be cut into "cushions". I can see my niece, her husband and their two little ones hanging out on the dinette and side couch, while my Sister, bro-in-law and I drink in the adults lounge. Truly we'd have one too many to sleep comfortably inside that way, but If they all show up I'll worry about it then! Maybe I'll get that Avion Pick-up Camper shell that's been sitting by the road calling my name.

Paula
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Old 07-06-2010, 05:54 PM   #19
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I don't currently own this Airstream, but hope to soon...
have u been inside many/any/one stream?

floor plans only take us so far.

sleeping 3 people FULL TIME in a 25 is a challenge.

especially when trying to carve out "man space" where none exists.

no one else living in yer stream is gonna have exclusive space.
________

moving the charger/converter is easy

pulling the beds from a twin set up is easy too and has very little impact on the walls.
________

perhaps you wanna step back and better explain the rvtravellivingwork plans...

then those that can provide seasoned advice might.
________

it's a bit naive to be tied to ONE color scheme so early on...

since they ALL morph to brown when used much.

and the ccd isn't the most SPACE giving of models.

many new buyers start out thinking they can engineer the perfect layout in these REALLY TINY spaces.

the folks at a/s have been TRYING to do that for 75 years, so perhaps they have clues.
________

boondocking in a 25, again with 3 people also produces compromises.

water, batteries, water, waste, water, power...

did i mention water?
________

the custom shop in colorado can tweak the interior on a new/used unit any way you want...

of course it helps to really know what is wanted vs needed.
________

btw the 27 is bigger? than the 28

and for full time living, streamin' and so on the TV is grossly inadequate.

there are very few campgrounds (almost ZERO) that cannot accommodate a 27-30 footer...

IF they can handle a modern 25 (which is still a wide body)
________

so NOW u know whats under da bed,

how bout pulling back the covers on your overall plans and hang on for some real wisdom...

or not

cheers
2air'
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Old 07-06-2010, 06:25 PM   #20
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Also under the bed is an electrical panel with wires from the batteries and other places, but it too can be dealt with. More problematical is the water heater. Most, if not all, is behind the bottom of the wardrobe in the 25'. Some of it may protrude under the bed and some pipes that are accessed from the side utility door. Go to a dealer, lift up the bed and check it out. Then go to that side door and see how the water heater and pipes are.

It would be easier when you are working if child and wife were in the bedroom and you were at the dinette table. But if child noise is a problem, the two "doors" on each end of the hallway aren't going to keep out much of it. Industrial strength earmuffs may be a better solution. If you all sleep in the rear, there will be some difficulty in making new children too (different kind of noise problem). Those cushions that make extra beds may be ok for a short camping trip, but for fulltiming?

Maybe a motorhome with 3 discrete rooms would work better for you instead of trying to force this into an Airstream. Something has to give and I think an Airstream 25' is pretty inflexible.

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