Removing Queen bed from 25' International - Advice?

[worksology]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

have u been inside many/any/one stream? / floor plans only take us so far.

The nearest Airstream dealer to me is in Arkansas. My wife & I took our last vacation to the Ozarks with the express purpose of being near enough to Airstream of Arkansas in Searcy. At the time they had at least one International of each size as well as a few Flying Clouds and Bambis. We looked through them all. This was, admittedly, relatively early in our research and I wasn't able to scope out all the nitty-gritty details that would be valuable to me today, 10 months later. I *really* could use another trip to a thoroughly-stocked dealer. Too bad there aren't any close to here.

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

sleeping 3 people FULL TIME in a 25 is a challenge. / especially when trying to carve out "man space" where none exists. / no one else living in yer stream is gonna have exclusive space.

No one's trying to carve out "man space" or any other exclusively-owned space in this family. The purpose of the dedicated desk space will be to provide the sole income for my family, but it will also serve many secondary purposes that the entire family will take advantage of. I'm not trying to build a birdhouse-building station in the back-half of our trailer. This isn't a frivolous addition.

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

moving the charger/converter is easy. pulling the beds from a twin set up is easy too and has very little impact on the walls.

Thank you; that is reassuring!

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

perhaps you wanna step back and better explain the rvtravellivingwork plans... / then those that can provide seasoned advice might.

Thank you for asking; I feel properly welcomed! I'll do the short-version now, and a proper, full introduction in a more appropriate thread, later. I'm 29, my wife a few years older, and we have a boy who turns 2 in 11 days. We own a 3200 sq ft. home in Kansas, I have a great job at a University as a web designer, and my wife (also a designer) stays home with our son, and, every-other-day, her 10-year-old daughter (she'll be spending the summers with us). Our major motivations for going full-time are:

— a dissatisfaction with home ownership
— a healthy skepticism and growing ennui of the suburban lifestyle
— an insatiable wanderlust for most of my life
— an overwhelming desire to live more simply, more frugally, more responsibly, more intentionally, and closer to our evolutionary arc
— ambitions to pursue freelance web development (et al) whole-heartedly

We are not attempting to recreate our suburban lifestyle on the road. We are not trying to become "location-independent", at least not to the extent that that's the goal in itself. We're campers, backpackers, we prefer the dirt and the tree bark and are willing to live with the inconveniences of an RV, nay an Airstream, to design the lifestyle we, at least in the here & now, envision for ourselves and our family. It may not hold, but we're okay with that too.

We're confident we'll full-time for a year or two or three, but when the boy is of organized-schooling age, we'll clearly have to make the decision of where to settle down, or to homeschool. We're not homeschooling types, or at least we don't imagine ourselves to be, but we're not worrying about that right now. We're planning for up to three years of full-timing with the OTB or cash-out completely whenever, and wherever, we choose.

We'll be doing a variety of FHU, boondocking, dispersed camping, moving from place-to-place day-by-day, and sitting for weeks at a time in a single place. We are willing to make mistakes and learn from them. We're introverts. We're hoping for more natural adventure and less cosmopolitan camping (I refuse to use the term "glamping").

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

it's a bit naive to be tied to ONE color scheme so early on... since they ALL morph to brown when used much. / and the ccd isn't the most SPACE giving of models.

Haha. Well, I don't think it's naïve at all. If that decision costs us $10,000 over an equally-equipped Flying Cloud/Safari, then we clearly have to weigh the benefits of that decision with the financial costs, but we're definitely not being naïve about deciding what's important to us and trying to maximize on the right side of that equation. I still haven't made up my mind on this particular issue, but it is of some importance to us.

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

many new buyers start out thinking they can engineer the perfect layout in these REALLY TINY spaces. / the folks at a/s have been TRYING to do that for 75 years, so perhaps they have clues.

With all due respect, Airstream's layouts have NOT been designed with MY FAMILY in 2010 in mind. If they had, they'd look a lot like the designs I did for Timeless Travel Trailers in Colorado, who said it'd cost over $140,000 to achieve. Well, no thanks. The needs and interests of a vast majority of Airstream/RV owners, especially historically, are quite different than mine. And that's okay; I understand market forces. I understand that most RV owners are retirees, or without children, or weekend hobbyists. I also understand that there are many people just-like-us making it work, and to whatever extent possible, I'm willing to learn from them so long as it doesn't impede our adventure itself. I've tried to carve our own needs into the semi-malleable slate that is a late-model Airstream, given my reasonably-tight budget, and have a reasonable confident that it's a good & wise path to follow.

Now I agree, like others have said, that without the actual experience behind us, we're grasping at straws in knowing exactly what those needs are. But there's only so much research we can do before it's time to take some plunges. And it's all about the plunges.

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

boondocking in a 25, again with 3 people also produces compromises. water, batteries, water, waste, water, power... did i mention water?

Understood. We're not some cushy yuppies (okay, yeah, we kinda are) that can't stand to compromise or go without or suffer enormously. We'll make do. There's adventure in mistakes.

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

btw the 27 is bigger? than the 28

and for full time living, streamin' and so on the TV is grossly inadequate.

there are very few campgrounds (almost ZERO) that cannot accommodate a 27-30 footer...

IF they can handle a modern 25 (which is still a wide body)

This seems awfully condescending to me; I trust it wasn't meant that way! My concern with going longer than 25 has less to do with campground accommodations and more with general maneuverability, dispersed camping spots, length and attractiveness of our overall rig, making do with less. The 25' IS the concession. We're supposed to be in a 23 footer!

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

so NOW u know whats under da bed, / how bout pulling back the covers on your overall plans and hang on for some real wisdom... / or not

I truly & honestly appreciate your effort on this forum in trying to impart a little sage advice to us, and I hope you'll welcome our family. We're incredibly anxious to be on the road, living as we're meant to be, learning the hard lessons, and I hope we run into you somewhere.

I've learned a lot of extremely valuable things on here, and wish I had time to read so much more. But I'm starting to think what we need is less wisdom and more practical advice or answers to specific questions (like what's under the queen bed on a 25' International!) just to get us up & out of here. It's not that I don't think the lessons are valuable; it's just that I think it will be a whole lot more fun to figure it out ourselves.

[worksology]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

Also under the bed is an electrical panel with wires from the batteries and other places, but it too can be dealt with. More problematical is the water heater. Most, if not all, is behind the bottom of the wardrobe in the 25'. Some of it may protrude under the bed and some pipes that are accessed from the side utility door. Go to a dealer, lift up the bed and check it out. Then go to that side door and see how the water heater and pipes are.

I learned quite a bit about what's under the queen bed from eheffa's excellent thread on his solar panel installation. But I knew from other pictures that there was something more, directly in the middle of the room, that would need to be relocated. Thanks for helping clear all of that up. If I could hop down to a dealer and check it out, I certainly would. This thread is my compromise.

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

It would be easier when you are working if child and wife were in the bedroom and you were at the dinette table. But if child noise is a problem, the two "doors" on each end of the hallway aren't going to keep out much of it. Industrial strength earmuffs may be a better solution. If you all sleep in the rear, there will be some difficulty in making new children too (different kind of noise problem). Those cushions that make extra beds may be ok for a short camping trip, but for fulltiming?

The child's noise isn't so much the problem; it's him pounding all the buttons on the keyboard and demanding we watch babies on YouTube that's the problem. Honestly, if I'm trying to get any serious work done for any length of time, my wife & boy are going to have to go on a hike or daytrip or bike ride or something without me. But for those occasions that I just have to crank some work out, having the ability to close the door will be a godsend. I prefer to work in a dark, tight, damp space, like some hermit in a basement. The true hacker stereotype. A darkened den of a FB can provide that (I hope).

As for making new children (which WON'T be the goal), well... necessity is the mother of invention. We're creative people; we'll figure it out.

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

Maybe a motorhome with 3 discrete rooms would work better for you instead of trying to force this into an Airstream. Something has to give and I think an Airstream 25' is pretty inflexible.

This line of reasoning will not stand! This happens in an Airstream, or it doesn't happen at all. (And it happens, no doubt!)


Thanks Gene! My wife & I have been enjoying your journals from Alaska enormously. I love your observant, almost-journalistic writing style, the way my Grandpa taught me to keep a travelogue (when we made a horse & buggy trip across Kansas about 20 years ago). Not an unnecessary word! It is tight, informative, and interesting, and has me pining for a trip to Alaska already!

[elfirebob]

Josh,
The 25FB is a great trailer, its really a 26...Your plan is sound and for my two cents, get the twin in your style, and take out the Streetside bed. There is nothing under that bed save the heater duct (easy to relocate). Look at the 50's trailers and see the many options for a seat/desk they used that convert into a bed. You will loose some storage, always at a premium on an A/S. One of our coat closets is in the back seat of our truck anyways. Airstream owners have come up with some pretty creative nooks and crannys to store stuff.
Nice thread though and some great options...

[worksology]

Thanks Bob. That is solid advice!! We've been looking for a used 25' CCD (non SS-style) for about 10 months and, quite honestly, have found zilch! There's almost zero chance of finding the 25' CCD with twin beds, since that hasn't been manufactured. But I'm still keeping the 27' Twin/Queen as an open possibility. I just don't know where it stands in priority with our other choices:

— 25' CCD Queen (have to relocate Power Converter/Charger, etc)
— 25' Flying Cloud/Safari Twin/Queen (have to deal with the Golden Alchemy wood laminate)

The wood laminate continually sounds like a silly thing, but both my wife & I agree that the first night we see someone else's wenge interior, we're going to cry ourselves to sleep. From our trip to Searcy, I vaguely remember liking the blonde interior BETTER and being disappointed with the dark laminate's realism. I don't know if I'm remembering that honestly.

I'm slightly tilting towards one of the twin-bed configurations (either 27' CCD or 25' FC) since that gives us the flexibility of baby-stepping into the modifications (one twin at a time).

I just cannot understand why the International doesn't come in a twin-bed layout. Can someone please explain why there are two entirely separate models instead of one with an interior laminate option?

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Hi, I don't think I saw this already mentioned, but if the deciding factor between a 25'er and a 27'er is your tow vehicle, I think your tow vehicle is under rated for either of these trailers. [my opinion] Pick the trailer that you really want and then buy a proper tow vehicle.

[dkottum]

We have traveled extensively and for extended periods with backpacks, VW campers, Scamp, Airstream, old airplanes and aircraft carriers (Navy) and have enjoyed it immensely.

But never full-time with kids, nor would I want to. I think it is irresponsible to discuss airframes without the realities of two youngsters.

You have youth, family, and a great job. The quiet desperation you sense may be relieved without scrapping the assets.

Get a used compact Airstream and hit the road at every opportunity. Mow the grass on Thursday and go to church wherever you are on Sunday morning. Wisdom is gained only by experience, and it is foolish to jump into deep water before you learn to swim.

[2airishuman]

>-dealer locations...

yep we are limited here in the land of ahs, but the trip back to searcy is worth it.

every time TIME is spent lumbering around inside units, you will learn something.

a rally is a great time to shop units too.

some koaz now rent streams, another worthy way to learn for a tiny bit of $

>-dedicated desk space isn't the same as...

"dedicated work space where I can close the door and be away..." mentioned early in this thread.

clarification helps when others offer suggestions.

there are units more ideally designed for either work space, a dedicated desk, seclusion, sleeping, privacy or whatever.

those are NOT all NEW units and the decor won't be wenge, but that's another issue.

>-shifting from stick house to travel'n hut.

many reasons to do this, no justification needed...

but rv living is only simply in some wayz and MORE complicated in others.

it's fun and the learning curve/self discovery that comes with a mobile life is rewarding ADVENTURE...

the typical new full timer makes it 1-2 years then exits back to something more traditional.

so realizing your initially planning for 1-3 years is good.

finding a gently used unit to tweak for this adventure means a LOT LESS depreciation and nagging repairs that go with new units.

>-color schmuller...

the point about the color/decor restriction being naive is that THIS FEATURE is the easiest and least expensive to achieve...

yes it's what one is hit with visually just as the door opens,

but the 'look' is remarkably easy and relatively INexpensive to create.

lp tank size, battery capacity, CRAP TANK size, easy access to the water pump, selecting the ideal hitch and FLOOR PLAN ...

these appear to be the mundane issues far removed from cushion colors...

BUT on the road and after the fact ALL of that stuff

becomes many times more important (especially if done wrong) than wenge-etics ...

>-history of layout/design.

the message here is HIDDEN structural bits (plumbing, wiring, lp, batteries, walls, windows and so on...

are expensive and NOT so easy to alter (compared to fabric or trim), especially for a noob.

weight, locations, shell/wall/floor/frame/attachments are a LOT TRICKIER to tweak.

you are PRE conceiving a/s owners (old retired childless) while believing your personal needs are unique.

the demographics have changed and your family is DEAD CENTER on that new target.

even old childless folks are different in 2010 than they were in 1960.

>-size issues...

no the 25 vs 30 issues isn't condescending.

but almost EVERY new buyer thinks 23-25 is HUGE and towing parking will be a big problem.

then within weeks or months of ownership "2footitis" hits...

the simple truth is that except for a VERY SHORT list of campgrounds and a very FEW types of locations...

a 34 can go anywhere a 19 can.

i have been ONE PLACE in the last 6 years where the 34 didn't fit and that's with well over 1200 nights of parking.

SOME of the end of trail/tent/foot access locations, or small roads leading to pristine boondocking...

can't handle MODERN streams because of width as much as length.

and you will NOT have "technology access" in many of those locations.

>-understanding size...

" a 25 is really 26" ...

well that's creative thinking since a/s counts the TONGUE in sizing...

so a 25 is really a 22 on the inside.

go out into your driveway and chalk out 8 x 22.

then sketch in all the floor intrusions (beds, galley, closets, lav/shower) and the floor space gets VERY very small.

we have the option of using the great outdoors or adding the awning cover as living space...

but only with agreeable weather.

spend a long weekend in cold wet dark conditions entirely INSIDE the stream...

and they tend to SHRINK in size each day...

small CAN be wonderful, but it pays to get really familiar with the absolute space needs for a toddler and 2 adults.

any pets?

back to the size/towing issue.

with a properly sized tow vehicle larger trailers are EASIER to tow/move/park than smaller ones.

yes on first glance longer SEEMS intimidating...

it is not, once past the first week or so of travel or 2-3 camping weekends.

>-sage advice ?

hardly, as nothing posted so far goes beyond the most basic level.

1. cosmetics are easy to tweak
2. moving structural bits gets sticky quick.
3. finding a PREexisting floorplan that works is a LOT EASIER than inventing this.
4. everyone UNDER estimates their space needs
5. go 2-3 feet bigger and u won't regret it...(unless u really need 6 feet extra)
6. sort out the TV after the stream.
7. look at a LOT of units, visit gatherings, VISIT rv parks (stream or not, rvers have many thingz in common)
8. READ the archives here (it's all been asked/answered many times over)

and...

enjoy the adventure!
_______

cheers
2air'

[2airishuman]

one further clarification on lengths...

the 28 IS shorter than the 27.

the 30 and 31 are exactly the same length...

except the 30 safari which is shorter than the 30 classic.

and 25s have come in at least 2 lengths.

and twin bed models always appear LONGER than queens.
_______

the message being numberical length as used by a/s...

is partly a "model" name term.

and seldom refers to an exact size.

not unlike 19.95$ isn't really 20 bucks when it comes to advertising...

2 units exactly the same length can appear and function as 2 markedly different spaces...

not counting outerspace...

cheers
2air'

[Jezibels]

Josh,

My reply will be very short here. We are a young family of 4, our unit is a vintage 24'er and has twin beds and I can tell you that it works beautifully for us and we wouldn't have it any other way. I hope this helps you out. The fun starts now!

[worksology]

Originally Posted by dkottum

But never full-time with kids, nor would I want to. I think it is irresponsible to discuss airframes without the realities of two youngsters.

You have youth, family, and a great job. The quiet desperation you sense may be relieved without scrapping the assets.

Get a used compact Airstream and hit the road at every opportunity. Mow the grass on Thursday and go to church wherever you are on Sunday morning. Wisdom is gained only by experience, and it is foolish to jump into deep water before you learn to swim.

I'm not sure I could disagree with you more. Like I've tried to say repeatedly, I'm not looking for life counseling or help deciding which road to go down (I'll take the one less traveled, thank you). I'm a smart and capable person with a tolerance for pain and I've got a trajectory that I'm excited about. I was hoping this would be a community of like-minded people, not just some folks who've owned Airstreams for a long time. I'm sure there ARE some of you out there, but I don't expect advice like "mow your grass, go to church, keep your 9-5, consign your life this unsustainable plane of existence we've created for ourselves."

I have a beautiful, brand-new (2006), huge house in a quiet, low-traffic, family-friendly suburb of a college town in Kansas. It's the thing I've always been promised I could have if I worked hard, and I have, and it's not for me. It's a mindless, self-entitled way to live. "Mow the grass"? Maintaining a yard is part of the problem. We've chewed up a beautiful prairie hill, imported non-native grass, poured chemicals all over it every year, bury expensive sprinklers to spray expensive water, run gas-guzzling mowers over it once-a-week, and now I have watershed experts telling me we need to put in all sorts of fancy drains and swales and wet gardens because we're screwing up natural ecology of the creek that runs through our backyards. Well, duh. I just don't want to be a part of that anymore. At least not until I get to decide the terms.

And that's just one, measly example.

I'm also curious about your "I think it is irresponsible to discuss airframes without the realities of two youngsters" bit. Are you implying that I haven't considered my children in this plan? That I'm being an irresponsible parent? That I'm endangering my children? What am I supposed to read into that? Because what I hear is that you're against children living on the road because it's irresponsible (heh, because that's what you said). I'd love for you to clarify in what respects it's irresponsible, and try reconciling that against the FOTR folk that swear by it. I'm NOT saying you're wrong, I just find it incredibly presumptuous to call it irresponsible so readily when you don't even know me.

Josh

[worksology]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

>the trip back to searcy is worth it.

I think you're right, of course. If at all possible, I'm going to take a few days off near the end of July and take a quick roadtrip. Their website has either not been updated in a while, or they only have 6 units right now. That makes me nervous about the value of that trip.

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

>there are units more ideally designed for either work space, a dedicated desk, seclusion, sleeping, privacy or whatever. those are NOT all NEW units and the decor won't be wenge, but that's another issue.

Heh, yeah, I realize that. Like I've said (and I don't expect most people to find this reasonable, let alone understand it, but), there are some aesthetic things that are very important to us. Critical is the aluminum interior wall paneling (not the textured fiberglassy stuff). Wenge SEEMS important, but I'm more wishy-washy about that every day now.

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

>rv living is only simply in some wayz and MORE complicated in others. / so realizing your initially planning for 1-3 years is good. / finding a gently used unit to tweak for this adventure means a LOT LESS depreciation and nagging repairs that go with new units.

An excellent point, and one I've had a lot of trouble following all my life (like buying a NEW house and Jeep in 2006). We've been searching very hard for a particular used model of Airstream for 10 months now, and just when I felt we'd have to resign to ordering it new, I think I'm learning to step back and consider *different* models of used trailers instead. We're just so good at isolating our idea of perfection, it's hard to see beautiful things on the periphery.

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

>BUT on the road and after the fact ALL of that stuff becomes many times more important (especially if done wrong) than wenge-etics ...

Touché! I think you're spot-on with that. I don't know how "easily/least-expensive" it really is to replace all the laminate veneer, but I do understand your point about other, more practical things, being what really counts when you're on the road. And I totally agree. I would just hope those are the things the Airstream engineers have spend the last 80 years perfecting.

I just know ya'll are going to be so proud of us when we end up buying a trailer with "golden alchemy" interior!

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

>you are PRE conceiving a/s owners (old retired childless) while believing your personal needs are unique. / the demographics have changed and your family is DEAD CENTER on that new target. / even old childless folks are different in 2010 than they were in 1960.

I thought I was careful not to "preconceive" Airstream owners into any particular demographic. However, I am fairly confident that a huge majority of Airstream's sales go to 1) Retirees, 2) Childless younger folk, or 3) Hobbyists. I'll bet working families with children make up an incredibly tiny sliver of Airstream's sales. I agree that the demographics are changing, but Airstreams interiors are decidedly NOT. They haven't made ANY substantial changes to layouts for at least the past 3 years (2009-11) and none in the preceding few that are aimed towards these changing demographics. And I don't fault them for that, really, because market forces prevail.

This may be a stretch, but it's only when broadband internet can be sucked out of the sky, anywhere, anytime without expensive equipment or subscriptions (like FM radio) that families like mine could make a sizable-enough portion of Airstream's sales to become the new DEAD CENTER of their market. My point is that it's kind of naïve to suggest we're "dead center" of the new demographic, while knowing all-too-well that Airstream's layouts haven't changed to match that. That's the whole problem.

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

>the simple truth is that except for a VERY SHORT list of campgrounds and a very FEW types of locations... a 34 can go anywhere a 19 can.

That is definitely reassuring! You're right that, as a novice, I have a certain amount of anxiety for the towing itself. And I agree that with a little time that will mostly fade and no longer be an issue. You're right that it shouldn't unnecessarily burden my process in choosing a trailer.

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

>go out into your driveway and chalk out 8 x 22. then sketch in all the floor intrusions (beds, galley, closets, lav/shower) and the floor space gets VERY very small.

Once this rain lets up, I'll do exactly that. Anyone have a diagram with precise measurements for each section of space in a 25' International?

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

>any pets?

Yuck, no.

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

>
1. cosmetics are easy to tweak
2. moving structural bits gets sticky quick.
3. finding a PREexisting floorplan that works is a LOT EASIER than inventing this.
4. everyone UNDER estimates their space needs
5. go 2-3 feet bigger and u won't regret it...(unless u really need 6 feet extra)
6. sort out the TV after the stream.
7. look at a LOT of units, visit gatherings, VISIT rv parks (stream or not, rvers have many thingz in common)
8. READ the archives here (it's all been asked/answered many times over)

Cheers, friend. I truly appreciate your time and your help.

Josh

[dkottum]

Josh, you are taking my poor writing too literally, and I sincerely apologize.

No, I don't think you are irresponsible at all. (Well, maybe a little bit, but I have also been free-spirited much of the time.) But you may receive advice to throw it all to the wind, and it will be alright if we can just find the right trailer. That is irresponsible advice, to me.

I also hate big, dumb houses that "have it all", houses that own you. We have spent years constructing a tiny Usonian house, as described by Frank Lloyd Wright, so we can live a simple lifestyle surrounded by the beauty of honest, natural materials in comforting form and nice proportions, with as few gadgets as possible, placed on a site with rugged natural features. That is also why we have the Airstream.

Mowing and churching were only mentioned to suggest you keep your weekends and vacations free to get the heck out of town.

Knowing full well all you asked for was trailer advice (many will cheer you out the door with a perfect trailer), I offer only a note of caution. We don't know your experience, but life on the road can be difficult and expensive, especially with kids.

So dump the McMansion, get an Airstream, and hope for the best. A couple feet here or there won't make any difference, the four of you will know how sardines feel. Or proceed toward your dream with measured steps, but do proceed.

Doug

[Gene]

Josh, thanks for the compliments about the Alaska writing. The motorhome suggestion was partly in jest, partly to shake you up a bit. I applaud your looking for a simpler lifestyle, not easy to reach in an RV—same things, but a lot smaller, and a lot of gasoline. I agree with Bob your Jeep may be undersized for a 25, but haven't checked it out. Don't let the tow vehicle determine the trailer size, the trailer will be with you a lot longer. I don't know how to keep 2 year old finger off the keyboard except you can unplug it when not in use. Still having questions about your remodel as it seems very expensive for not the best results, but that's only my opinion. Battery getting low, must send.

Gene

[2airishuman]

>-they don't do a great job with the website, these days...

but a quick call to AOA will get info on how many units are on the lot.

bt in st.lou also stocks a lot of units, buying there is another issue.

when i last purchased there were trips to 4 dealer lots and nearly 1000 photos taken.

this helped me enormously when winnowing down to specifics.

it also allowed me to get a feel for service centers at each.

i also included a trip to j/c to LOOK and see the builds...

but i'm sorta obsessive (in a good way) with these things.

>-yeah we (here) all care about beauty...

and new buyers expect the insides to look like the outside,

even though naked shinny aluminum was never part of the a/s legacy or functionality.

the acoustics inside bare naked are different, in a bad way...

cooling, heating, condensation are different

and the bare walls are UNFORGIVING to wacks from kiddos.

no question the foam padded vinyl has less appeal but functionally it's still a good thing.

they need more creative wall treatments 2b sure.

i'm reminded of this older thread from a YOUNG couple

and their eventual choice for full timin' (which lasted LESS than a year)...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f48/...-it-21921.html

>-your demographics really are DEAD CENTER on their target.

however they are using more than one bullseye these days.

and the execution of providing exactly what their targets THINK THEY WANT....

is still not complete. (ok they are way off sometimes)

but IF you think most units are still purchased (new or used) by old folks...

well, you clearly don't know much about a/s buyers from the last 10 years.

it may SEEM to you like their model/update intervals are slow...

but a/s has created MORE models/trim and significant decor changes in these last 10 years....

than the previous 30-40 years easily.

wallys mantra was "make no changes, only improvements" and they still hear that message echo in j/c.
_____________

there are dozens of threads here started by folks

who would appear to be in almost exactly the same circumstance and mind set...

reading those threads WOULD be useful, if only realize u r not alone...

but somehow it seems providing those links would be wasted effort.

lastly you may have come here ONLY for a/s particulars...

that doesn't mean you won't get replies on other topics...

it's all related to the airstreamtreencircleolife...

or as scar might have said...

"I know that your powers of retention
Are as wet as a warthog's backside
But thick as you are, pay attention
My words are a matter of pride
It's clear from your vacant expressions
The lights are not all on upstairs
But we're talking kings and successions
Even you can't be caught unawares
So prepare for a chance of a lifetime
Be prepared for sensational news
A shining new era
Is tiptoeing nearer"

cheers
2air'

[worksology]

Thank you Doug! I hope I didn't come across too irritated! I appreciate the input, but we're so far beyond deciding WHETHER to go, it's a bit frustrating to get advice to the contrary. But I do understand the spirit in which it was given, now, and I appreciate it.

I assure you we're not sprinting towards anything. I feel like I've been as deliberate and careful in planning our dissolution of established life as I can, given my experiences and knowledge. As I've said many times now, we'll make mistakes; we're counting on having to continually adjust, and we're even open to the (slim) possibility that we'll hate everything about it and won't find any way to make it work. But NOT trying isn't an option anymore. The cost may be steep (quitting a very secure, well-paying, high-benefits government job; selling our beautiful, cozy house (with a sauna!!); flipping life-as-he-knows it on its head for our two-year-old; breaking the continuity of seeing our 10-year-old every-other-day; and so on), but we've been through all of this, repeatedly, and calculate it as a net-positive change. But there's a far higher cost to NOT trying, and that's squandering this one life we have wondering if we should have taken this chance.

There's a long continuum between wild-risk-taking and obsessive, calculated contingency planning. We're probably closer to wild-risk-taking than most people, but I feel like we've got enough toes dragging in the safer end of that pool. (Please forgive me making up metaphors on the spot; it's not my strong-suit.). We'll be alright.

[worksology]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

I applaud your looking for a simpler lifestyle, not easy to reach in an RV—same things, but a lot smaller, and a lot of gasoline.

I keep seeing this sentiment, so I'll comment on it. No doubt you're right we're not trading a complicated life for a simple life. We lead a pretty simple life as "lives" tend to go, and I don't suspect life-on-the-road will get more simple in that respect. I guess by "simple" I mean more "primitive", closer to nature, more in the spirit of our evolutionary roots. My big house shelters me from too much that is a part of my humanity. I miss FEELING the weather, let alone HEAR it. When I took our trash out to the curb last night (and isn't that a modern luxury! bring your trash to the curb, poof, it's gone, not your problem), I saw a shooting star and was so disappointed that I was going to retreat back into my opaque fort. Most people don't even have to GO outside these days, with attached garages and all.

So simpler? Not exactly, but you know what I mean.

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

I agree with Bob your Jeep may be undersized for a 25, but haven't checked it out. Don't let the tow vehicle determine the trailer size, the trailer will be with you a lot longer.

Yes, I agree with all this. I definitely don't want to limit our options because of my Jeep. But I love my Jeep, and frankly, I don't really find it financially responsible to part with it just yet. (The Nissan Titan is really tempting me, though). I haven't found a whole lot of people towing with a Commander, but I've seen enough reports from people who've towed 25's and 27's with my TV without any problems. I'll take your advice and ignore my TV for now, see how it goes (tows), and then decide whether we need to upgrade or not. Thanks!!

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

Still having questions about your remodel as it seems very expensive for not the best results, but that's only my opinion.

Me too, Gene. Me too. The fact remains: I NEED a place to mount my 27" iMac that can provide me a reasonable amount of comfort and privacy for extended periods of time. We'll work it out. Step 1: find a trailer.

[worksology]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

>there are dozens of threads here started by folks who would appear to be in almost exactly the same circumstance and mind set... but somehow it seems providing those links would be wasted effort.

Do you think I'm defiantly turning a deaf ear to your ancient, sacred wisdom!? Or do you just think me thick as a brick? Or are you always this insensitive! I assure you there is tumult, absolute chaos, in my house because of this thread. Rethinking trailer sizes & tow vehicles. But: closer, closer.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by worksology

Do you think...

my thinking is not relevant

and clearly not important in the search for personalized rvnirvana

the goal is simply 2 promote awareness.

cheers
2air'

[2dabeach]

Originally Posted by worksology

I don't currently own this Airstream, but hope to soon. The wife and I have been looking for a late-model (2008-2011) 25' International FB for many, many months, and will be buying one soon, even if it means buying new.

Once we find the right one, we have plans to remove the queen bed and customize the front "bedroom" with a desk along the curb-side wall and a sofa along the street-side wall. I'm wondering whether any of you seasoned restorers have any advice for such a project?

Specifically, I'm curious what components are installed under the queen bed that will need to be relocated, probably within this new furniture? Also, what "scars" will removing the queen bed leave that will need to be repaired?

Thanks so much for any wisdom you could pass on.

worksology.....Another member of the forum removed the bed on his 25' FB and posted pictures of the project showing all the electric gear under the queen bed on the 25' FB. See post #12 of this thread.
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f468...-se-56222.html

[worksology]

Oh brilliant, 2dabeach. That is precisely what I've been unable to find! Thanks so much. I'll take a closer look.

Also, many of you on this thread have said that there's no place a 27 (or 30 or 34) can't go that a 25 could, but in my afternoon's perusing, I've found half-a-dozen threads that mention State & National Parks having some "25 foot limit" to the RVs they allow in. Is this bollocks or is this a legitimate concern (aside from just lying and saying my 27 is actually a 25)??