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Old 03-25-2019, 12:18 PM   #1
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80/20 Aluminum cabinets and benches renovation

Have reached the 85-90% complete stage in our front renovation. Have searched the forum many times, and it looks like our is, or is one of, the first published major renovation using 80/20 extruded aluminum.

These images show how we built the structure using 80/20 extruded aluminum. Used the 1" Model 1010 series and fasteners as the primary building materials.


Replaced old dinette, credenza. New power cabinet left, desk middle, and three-drawer storage cabinet right. 27-1/2" deep countertop, with 39 in. wide drawers in right cabinet. Drawer slides are in place in right side cabinet.

Also shows our Mannington Adura-Max luxury vinyl plank flooring. This flooring has an integrated backing.


Replaced tables and sleeper sofa. New has space for five 20-1/2" wide by 15-1/2" deep drawers beneath benches. Drawer slides are in place. Experimenting with bench depth, back angle, and cushion choices.


New power cabinet with Lithionics 12V 220AH GC2E Module with dual-channel BMS in place.


BlueSea custom DC control panel and AC load center are in the power cabinet, street side by refrigerator cabinet, just above wheel well.

The model 1010 80/20 aluminum has been a fun material to work with. Made all the cuts and borings.

Will describe 50A AC shore power upgrade, lithium battery DC upgrades, cabinet panels, and other items in separate posts. Will include details on products, weight, cost, etc.

73/gus
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:56 PM   #2
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Great to see people thinking "outside the box"

How does cost and weight of 80/20 Alu compare to wood? Will the cabinet fronts be aluminum or wood?
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:00 PM   #3
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Just looks magnificent, and I bet its real sturdy.

What do you plan to use as the exterior surfaces?
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Old 03-25-2019, 07:12 PM   #4
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Great to see! I had posted recently to see if anyone was doing just this very approach.

Would be very interested in the cost of your materials as my initial investigation of 80/20 seemed to be cost prohibitive.
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Old 03-26-2019, 09:51 AM   #5
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I built the microwave/work surface addition for our FC25FB out of 80/20 Quickfame. It’s not as versatile as conventional 80/20 but it’s lighter and great for some simplier applications. You assemble everything with a saw and a mallet.
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Old 03-26-2019, 10:10 AM   #6
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I built the microwave/work surface addition for our FC25FB out of 80/20 Quickfame.
This is a really nice QuickFrame application.

73/gus
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Old 03-26-2019, 10:41 AM   #7
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How does cost and weight of 80/20 Alu compare to wood? Will the cabinet fronts be aluminum or wood?
I purchased all the 80/20 materials via their EBay Store. I planned ahead, and sized lengths to minimize waste and maximize common lengths. I also purchased all the 80/20 hardware and fasteners via the EBay store.

As to cost, you have to consider the styling. Our 80/20 design creates a completely different, sleek, modern look compared to traditional AS or plywood constructions. How much is a highly flexible, functional design worth that meets your desired aesthetic?

I weighed each old AS component that we removed, and the total was 215 lbs. Plus I removed the battery boxes and the two Lifeline AGM Series 31 (65 lbs each) mounted in the front. So I was working with about 350 lbs. of removed furnishings.

10 series 1 x 1 aluminum extrusion (Part #1010) weighs 0.041 lbs./inch. Fasteners have various weights. I have the lengths and fasteners in a parts spreadsheet, and will post that later. In our design, being mobile with the vibration, nearly all connections have two fasteners. This is way over design, and I would be more selective.

This is my second larger 80/20 project, and I am being conservative. Our first 80/20 project was the reconfigurable system in our MB Sprinter van.

I cut the aluminum to lengths required using my DeWalt chop saw. I used my drill press to cut the borrings for the internal fasteners.

If you are ambitious, and have a complete design available in AutoCAD, you can order the entire system pre-cut and ready to assemble. We tried several configurations on every cabinet before coming up with the current layout. Flexibility is one benefit of building with 80/20.

The Lithionics 12V 220AH GC2E module weighs 62 lbs. In our design, we have provisioned space for one additional Lithionics 2 channel UL-listed BMS and two Lithionics GT high-density batteries, 180Ah, G31EXT case, batteries. 12.94 x 10.98h x 6.8"w, (11.75" overall height with cables on top) with Euro-DIN connector. This will give us 580AH storage. You can select either or both battery banks using the battery selector switch on the BlueSea custom panel (lower switch). The upper BlueSea switch disconnects the separate DC load bus.



For example, I wanted to mount the solar controller for the portable panels, and I placed it on the street side just forward of the forward under-bench drawer. This allow for access and ventilation. In this picture, you can see the construction details, like:
- use of various internal and external 80/20 fasteners,
- cable mounting using 80/20 brackets on the back of the benches,
- using the aluminum channels to mount the Morningstar solar MPPT charger and GFPD,
- mount the BlueSea circuit breaker,
- the Sugastune ESR-4513 304 Stainless Steel Drawer Slide, Full Extension, Positive Stop, 15-3/4" Closed, 16" Travel, 104lbs capacity.



This is a top-view of the same bench section. The bench seats hinge up for easy access.

The custom-made drawers are 1/2" plywood. The five under-bench drawers are all the same size. The three drawers in the right storage cabinet.

On the cabinet sides, we are trying 1/16" polycarbonate panels, some have perforations for ventilation. We may also use some coated wire mesh when hidden underneath.

On strength, this design is STRONG. I calculated the longest lengths to have < 1/64" deflection when under maximum expected loading.

We tried panels that slide into the channels and bolt on the channel fronts. Think we've decided to mount then as inset within the opening using the 80/20 panel mounting blocks or single arm narrow mesh retainer.

The cabinet fronts are TBD, and we are trying several materials, colors, etc. We are also trying several marine handles, latches, etc.

This is a work in progress, and I will provide additional images as we settle in on the final design. Would appreciate any suggestions or lessons learned from other 80/20 designs.

73/gus
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Old 03-26-2019, 11:18 AM   #8
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Is the 80/20 seating area designed to convert to sleeping or is it designed for seating only?
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Old 03-26-2019, 12:23 PM   #9
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Is the 80/20 seating area designed to convert to sleeping or is it designed for seating only?
We are still exploring various bench depths and cushions. As shown now, the plywood bottom is 19-1/2" for the seat. Will try 21" next.

Obviously, the seat depth and cushion size will impact the bed design. So yes on converting for sleeping, but am experimenting with several methods for the fold-up "slats" and the matching panels.

73/gus
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Old 03-26-2019, 01:12 PM   #10
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Flexibility and aesthetics are key

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Originally Posted by BambiTex View Post
How does cost and weight of 80/20 Alu compare to wood? Will the cabinet fronts be aluminum or wood?
Concerning costs, the more you plan ahead, the more you save. Overall, we consider the aesthetic value and flexibility of getting the look we wanted to be of significant value - something other materials would not have achieved.

From EBay today, when purchasing the 1010 extrusion, the cost per inch for various raw lengths are:
- 97" $0.259
- 84" $0.253
- 72" $0.293
- 60" $0.263
- 48" $0.271
- 36" $0.284
- 24" $0.308
- 12" $0.392
Price is plus shipping and handling. Ordering in larger quantities saves significantly on shipping. 80/20 does an excellent packaging job, and all orders arrived without blemish.

We designed by prototype after prototype, so we did not get the lowest prices. Yet we were able to reuse most materials from one prototype to another.

I got some good bargains on some lots of various sizes and 1010 series types, probably cuts remaining from custom jobs. The key is to minimize waste. For example, was willing to pay a little more for 60 inch lengths because the design has 12 sections which are 60 inches long.

Perhaps the biggest savings is on fasteners. If you plan for each screw and nut placement, and preposition the nuts in the slots, you can save big time over insertable, repositional nuts. For example,
80/20 Inc T-Slot 10 Series 1/4-20 Slide-In Economy T-Nut #3382 (50PK) = $10.50
80/20 Inc T-Slot 10 Series 1/4-20 Roll-In T-Nut with Flex Handle #3376 N (50 cnt) = $85.00

Ouch! Yet at any time you can easily make modifications using the insertable fasteners.

Discovered that our local Fastenal store carries some of the 80/20 fasteners.

How much is the flexibility worth? This shows how I was able to mount the charge bus components - (left to right) - rooftop solar GFPD, MMPT solar charger, charge source breakers and busbar, primary shore charger, and charge bus shunt.



80/20 made vertical mounting, with plenty of ventilation, easy.

73/gus
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Old 03-26-2019, 02:18 PM   #11
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Any observations on how you have dealt with or accommodated the curvature of the airstream frame in your 80/20 designs?
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Old 03-27-2019, 12:10 AM   #12
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I love how flexible 80/20 is. I lead a group of students building FIRST Robotics robots and 80/20 is great for some of those designs.

One thing Ive noticed is that the anchor fasteners where you bore a 7/8 ish hole in the end do tend to vibrate loose. They really appreciate Loctite. The brackets seem fine under vibration.
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Old 03-27-2019, 08:07 AM   #13
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Looking forward to seeing the completed product.
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Old 03-27-2019, 08:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gklott View Post
Obviously, the seat depth and cushion size will impact the bed design. So yes on converting for sleeping, but am experimenting with several methods for the fold-up "slats" and the matching panels.
Your use of the aluminum framing is beautiful!
AND versatile.
Since you mentioned seating, if I could change anything on my 26U seating, I'd make the seats slope away from the front, somewhat like a sofa. I'd make the foam very firm for support. But that's problematic with the sleeping, unless the back cushions also slope an equal amount, so they could be flipped on the plywood and the end result is a flat surface. Make sense? The seat cushions go on the table, and the back rests flip and go on the seating surface. Just an idea.
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Old 03-28-2019, 07:51 AM   #15
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Experiment continues

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Originally Posted by Mollysdad View Post
Your use of the aluminum framing is beautiful!
AND versatile.
Thanks. This is a fun project. Bet we have changed the design 5 times, and we really like the versatility of moving pieces, changing fasteners, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mollysdad View Post
I'd make the foam very firm for support. But that's problematic with the sleeping, unless the back cushions also slope an equal amount, so they could be flipped on the plywood and the end result is a flat surface. Make sense?
Yes, makes sense. As you describe, getting this right firmness and surface takes considerable experimentation. We are trying various wool and other natural material cushions. Once we decide on the "best" feeling thickness, and how we want to attach the seat back cushions to the front seats, we will likely order a final custom set.

73/gus
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Old 03-31-2019, 11:41 AM   #16
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Solar GFPD

Hey Gus,

A couple questions/points.

The gauge of the wire on a lot of the wire runs - there is a lot of copper there. While I can see the types of equipment - some of them seem spec'd for far less amps. I would also like to see your solar array - and your combiner if any for the panels. The isolation switches and breakers are rated at 300 Amps - Are you expecting to draw 12V 300amps anywhere in your system? I usually use 150amp breakers/switches and fuse most of my 2 gauge at 200amps. I see a lot of ($$$) in your wiring scheme.

Also you are running a solar GFPD? I have grounded all my panels on the aluminum structure and run all my wires through a combiner - as I run a 24V system versus a 12V system. I have 800W of solar and a hydrid array - and I have never seen the requirement for a GFPD in this type of system with grounded arrays. Would like to know your thoughts there.

I am impressed with the equipment you have installed - all top notch. Have you considered cooling with having all that gear in one cabinet? Ventilation? that system when charging and discharging (say noon on any given day) will be a heat source for sure!

Have you thought about wireless connectivity? Or wired? Most of that equipment can fall into a TCP/IP or Bluetooth link and the systems come with Apps for your PC or phone. Running some RS 485 (Cat 5 or 6) between units (battery BMS in series or paralell) will help manage the BMS and the solar array and configurations of the systems. Getting the systems to talk to each other is also a challenge. I usually table top all of that beforehand so the installation is easier.

Overall what you have done is impressive. Be nice to see it all finished. I have looked into aluminum structures and compared that with Spruce or Pine strapping - from a weight perspective they are comparable. I think building a 2U rack unit with aluminum is where I am headed - but my batteries are much smaller than yours. A 24V system at 100AH is really 12V at 200AH - and weighs far less and uses much less copper, fusing, etc. You do need a 24VDC to 12VDC converter that runs your 12VDC panel - but that will depend on how much VDC you are using in the RV. My 40amp converter is about just right as the fuses on normal 12VDC mains are 40amp in most RV's. But a mute point as you are obviously into 12V in a big way.

Good luck with the finishing touches.
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Old 04-01-2019, 10:48 AM   #17
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Quote:
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The gauge of the wire on a lot of the wire runs - there is a lot of copper there. While I can see the types of equipment - some of them seem spec'd for far less amps. I would also like to see your solar array - and your combiner if any for the panels. The isolation switches and breakers are rated at 300 Amps - Are you expecting to draw 12V 300amps anywhere in your system?
I built to provide for up to a 3 kW inverter. Currently I have a 1 kW, but thought best to build up now. Longest 2/0 run is from one BMS to the charge bus bar, which is about 19 ft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristof View Post
I usually use 150amp breakers/switches and fuse most of my 2 gauge at 200amps. I see a lot of ($$$) in your wiring scheme.
I used Ancor UL 1426 stranded 105C DC wiring throughout, with matching Ancor lugs, heat shrink, and terminal covers. I had some cable left over from previous work, so used it when convenient size.

For overcurrent protection sizing, I used Table 2 in ANSI/RVIA LV 2018 edition. I compared with ABYC E-11 2018 edition Table 6B. Rarely did my cables run unbundled for the entire run.

In general the sizing I used is (AWG):
- BMS to charge or load positive bus bar = 2/0
- BMS to negative bus bar = 2/0
- Load bus to Inverter = 2/0
- 60A and 40A Solar MPPT chargers to charge bus = 4
- 30A DC-DC converter from tow vehicle = 6
- 60A Shore charger to charge bus = 4
- rooftop solar combiner to charger = 6
- DC branch circuits = 10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristof View Post
Also you are running a solar GFPD? I have grounded all my panels on the aluminum structure and run all my wires through a combiner - as I run a 24V system versus a 12V system. I have 800W of solar and a hydrid array - and I have never seen the requirement for a GFPD in this type of system with grounded arrays. Would like to know your thoughts there.
For the roof, our six panels are the Solbian SP125 flexible panels, 1363 x 546 x 2mm, 1.8 kg, Vpm = 22V, Imp 5.7A. I have these off the roof right now so I can BusCote the white portion of the roof.

Yet - we are rethinking the six roof panels. We may create a flexible solar panel awning using the six Solbian panels. More to come. So many places we camp are shaded, and we had limited success charging while boondocking.

Panels feed an Eaton Crouse-Hinds #CCBF06 combiner, 6 circuit. All panels are in parallel, with a 15A fuse for each panel in the combiner box.

From panels to charger, the positive and negative leads are isolated from the trailer. The common negative terminal point is in the MorningStar TriStar-MPPT-60.

The combiner feeds the externally-accessible BlueSea two-pole disconnect switch. It then feeds a 50A solar breaker in the main DC panel, to the GFPD, to the 60A Morningstar MPPT charger.

On using the GFPD, I am following guidance in NFPA 70 (NEC - 2017) Article 690.41. GFPD is for fire prevention, not for shock protection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristof View Post
Have you considered cooling with having all that gear in one cabinet? Ventilation? that system when charging and discharging (say noon on any given day) will be a heat source for sure!
Yes. Internal cabinet volume is 29714 cu. in. Ventilation is why all the side cabinet panels, except for the fronts, are wire mesh or perforated polycarbonate. I will monitor the temps, and see if I need a small fan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristof View Post
Have you thought about wireless connectivity? Or wired? Most of that equipment can fall into a TCP/IP or Bluetooth link and the systems come with Apps for your PC or phone. Running some RS 485 (Cat 5 or 6) between units (battery BMS in series or paralell) will help manage the BMS and the solar array and configurations of the systems. Getting the systems to talk to each other is also a challenge. I usually table top all of that beforehand so the installation is easier.
Yes, I have a trailer CAT6 shielded wired LAN, and the BMS and solar chargers talk over that. They combine in Ubiquiti UniFi Switch 8, 60W PoE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristof View Post
Overall what you have done is impressive. Be nice to see it all finished.
Thanks. It's a fun project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristof View Post
I have looked into aluminum structures and compared that with Spruce or Pine strapping - from a weight perspective they are comparable. I think building a 2U rack unit with aluminum is where I am headed - but my batteries are much smaller than yours. A 24V system at 100AH is really 12V at 200AH - and weighs far less and uses much less copper, fusing, etc. You do need a 24VDC to 12VDC converter that runs your 12VDC panel - but that will depend on how much VDC you are using in the RV. My 40amp converter is about just right as the fuses on normal 12VDC mains are 40amp in most RV's. But a mute point as you are obviously into 12V in a big way.
24V is a good option. Which high current DC-DC converter are you using?

I can highly recommend the 8020 products for your project.

73/gus
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Old 04-01-2019, 10:58 AM   #18
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Curved corner details

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Originally Posted by my3sonsdad View Post
Any observations on how you have dealt with or accommodated the curvature of the airstream frame in your 80/20 designs?
Built the front section as far as possible across - 82" long when 7 in. out from under front window. Built the side sections straight as possible, as far forward as possible. Cabinets are 25-1/2" deep, and streetside bench is 17-1/2" deep. Bench is offset 1" from cabinet front.



Top view. Note how the bench depth got shorter in the last section. The 412" long 5 angle with connectors is a 8020 standard part.



Side view. We will have a custom cushion made to fit the space. We are trying fabric, nylon webbing, and some other ideas to fill this space.

Right now the benches are 1/2" plywood. We are trying several other materials.

73/gus
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Old 04-07-2019, 04:06 AM   #19
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Gklott, amazing work! I've tagged this material as what I would like to build most of my stuff. How did you mount everything to the walls?

I was considering buying those flat rails and using rivnuts to attach those to the ribs or internal skins.
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Old 08-28-2019, 08:01 PM   #20
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So I was inspired by this thread and decided to use 80/20 aluminum to frame my interior. Great stuff. The dinette was a pain because of all the non-right angles. Im hoping the rest goes a bit quicker.
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