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Old 09-06-2012, 03:48 PM   #113
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I was just listening to Colin on the VAP and if I'm not mistaken he ties his drains into the drainpipe.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:07 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wabbiteer
Good question for me too at this stage of my project

I'd be wary of setting up a temperamental drain line that may be partially air-locked... as in a slug of air that can't be pushed down or escape up and out of the way to allow full flow.

Does the shower drain pipe itself tie into a vent stack, and if so, where? What are the OD pipe sizes involved and how long is the pipe run and what is the vertical drop to the top of the GW drain pipe?
With the hepvo traps, you don't need a vent for the drain line since they are self venting. I will have a vent for the tank itself. The drop from the bottom of the shower to the top of the inside of the tank is about 4 1/2". I am trying to figure out how to get the hepvo mounted horizontally at the midpoint of that distance and it will be easier if it goes into the drain instead of the top of the tank. If the hepvo is above the tank I am afraid that I won't have enough water above the valve to open it fully and get full flow through the shower drain. Of course if the valve is too low, it will not allow the grey tank to fill fully and wil l back up in the shower drain line.
The grey tank drain is 2" and the shower drain is 1 1/2". The runs will be short, no more than a few feet. I should be able to maintain 1/4" slope per foot throughout assuming that I can get my trailer level
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:09 AM   #115
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Also, the top of the GW pipe is another 4" below the top of the tank so there is an 8" drop from the bottom of the shower to the top of the main drain pipe. I do think the most relevant issue though is the height of the water in a full grey tank.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:28 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timzog View Post

The grey tank drain is 2" and the shower drain is 1 1/2". The runs will be short, no more than a few feet. I should be able to maintain 1/4" slope per foot throughout assuming that I can get my trailer level
while fully recognizing that it's not the same exact assembly, you might take a look at a current national residential plumbing code for their stated limitation for "trap arm length".

that might give you an idea of where you design idea stands? that is, if the code says "3 feet" limit, and you're trying to go "2 feet", then you're likely to be ok.
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Old 09-07-2012, 11:56 AM   #117
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Hepvo US Tech Guide

I fear the ventless description is being taken too literally - these folks speak in terms of multiple hepvo traps on a drain branch circuit allowing air INTO the system (admittance; cheater valve, mechanical) via the other hepvo traps; they mention 'full bore flow' as a positive aspect but that will only happen if the air in the pipes has somewhere to be displaced to.

Nowhere in their diagrams do they show the drain branch being completely ventless, terminating into pooled water & slightly pressurized, ie: the bottom of the tank.

We might be able to get away with it easier if we'd oversize the pipe to 2" after the hepvo trap, in regards to flow rate, but theres still the problem of pressurizing the line with 4-6 inches of water column... How does the bladder handle 0.25 psi on its discharge side?
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:40 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wabbiteer
Hepvo US Tech Guide

I fear the ventless description is being taken too literally - these folks speak in terms of multiple hepvo traps on a drain branch circuit allowing air INTO the system (admittance; cheater valve, mechanical) via the other hepvo traps; they mention 'full bore flow' as a positive aspect but that will only happen if the air in the pipes has somewhere to be displaced to.

Nowhere in their diagrams do they show the drain branch being completely ventless, terminating into pooled water & slightly pressurized, ie: the bottom of the tank.

We might be able to get away with it easier if we'd oversize the pipe to 2" after the hepvo trap, in regards to flow rate, but theres still the problem of pressurizing the line with 4-6 inches of water column... How does the bladder handle 0.25 psi on its discharge side?
It seems to handle downstream pressure easily. Check this out.

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Old 09-07-2012, 05:48 PM   #119
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Gosh it would be easy to say you're absolutely right, lets launch and do it the easiest way . I'm looking at a 32-gallon 'shallow' tank and am pondering a grey water only plumbing system for my project & that option of ventless tie-ins to the main drain line sure is tempting.

Anyhow, a man'f selectively displaying certain design characteristics purely as benefits always makes me a little suspicious.

If it seals so perfectly to not allow ANY stack gas to back-flow and permeate the living area, then filling the GW tank will pressurize the shower drain tube and put hydrostatic pressure on the bladder. Sure, they show 'high' static back-pressure videos but do they show it passing fluids in normal installations when there is also some back-pressure built up?

How well does that bladder valve work when there is 6" water column (0.25psi) pressure against the discharge side? Does it require 6" of water column on the inlet side to overcome the higher-than-ambient (non-equalized) atmospheric pressure?

Quote:
I don't understand what else would need to be vented...
One thing I see is maybe the hepvo already restricts the flow enough ("offering a minimal resistance to flow") that trapped air or suds foam will not impede the metered (reduced) flow rate.

In the design we're looking at, draining directly into a pool of standing water, is not an acceptable practice. Usually the air in the pipe below the trap ALSO has to be provided somewhere to be pushed effortlessly OUT of the waters path into.

The air will fight like h*ll to always rise above any fluids trying to coax it downward, like a string of ping-pong balls in a pipe with enough buoyancy water flow can't simply 'piston' them out of the way or down the line.

Any sizable quantity of water entering a closed-circuit pipe will have to compress, interfere with, the air trapped in that ventless pipe at some point. It might be seen as a bubble trapped in an elbow or vertical section that gets caught by turbulence to cut the true water flow rate by 60-80% as in the 1-1/2" pipe suddenly has an effective diameter of 3/4" or less...

How about calling their 1-877-787-8833 number they displayed on that tech guide PDF?
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:42 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wabbiteer View Post
Gosh it would be easy to say you're absolutely right, lets launch and do it the easiest way . I'm looking at a 32-gallon 'shallow' tank and am pondering a grey water only plumbing system for my project & that option of ventless tie-ins to the main drain line sure is tempting.

Anyhow, a man'f selectively displaying certain design characteristics purely as benefits always makes me a little suspicious.

If it seals so perfectly to not allow ANY stack gas to back-flow and permeate the living area, then filling the GW tank will pressurize the shower drain tube and put hydrostatic pressure on the bladder. Sure, they show 'high' static back-pressure videos but do they show it passing fluids in normal installations when there is also some back-pressure built up?

How well does that bladder valve work when there is 6" water column (0.25psi) pressure against the discharge side? Does it require 6" of water column on the inlet side to overcome the higher-than-ambient (non-equalized) atmospheric pressure?



One thing I see is maybe the hepvo already restricts the flow enough ("offering a minimal resistance to flow") that trapped air or suds foam will not impede the metered (reduced) flow rate.

In the design we're looking at, draining directly into a pool of standing water, is not an acceptable practice. Usually the air in the pipe below the trap ALSO has to be provided somewhere to be pushed effortlessly OUT of the waters path into.

The air will fight like h*ll to always rise above any fluids trying to coax it downward, like a string of ping-pong balls in a pipe with enough buoyancy water flow can't simply 'piston' them out of the way or down the line.

Any sizable quantity of water entering a closed-circuit pipe will have to compress, interfere with, the air trapped in that ventless pipe at some point. It might be seen as a bubble trapped in an elbow or vertical section that gets caught by turbulence to cut the true water flow rate by 60-80% as in the 1-1/2" pipe suddenly has an effective diameter of 3/4" or less...

How about calling their 1-877-787-8833 number they displayed on that tech guide PDF?
If the Hepvo valve is above the grey tank and the grey tank is vented, I don't see how there will be any hydrostatic pressure on the back of the Hepvo except maybe from sloshing around. I am trying to get my head around the air bubble concept. I see that there is a difference between flowing into the top of the tank where it can just drop in and having to flow through the bottom, but my gut tells me it will be effective with a 1 1/2" drain pipe. I'm planning on mocking something up tomorrow and I'll take some pictures and post.
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Old 09-08-2012, 08:50 AM   #121
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So here is a mockup of my possible setup. The Hepvo goes directly into a 1 1/2" street elbow that drops into the main 2" line which connects the grey tank and the exit. The bottom of the Hepvo is level with the top of the tank. Based on what I've tried so far, there is no way to run the shower into the top of the grey tank without raising the shower floor and I don't want to do that.
On the right side there is a T that leads to the bathroom and kitchen sinks.

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Old 09-08-2012, 10:44 AM   #122
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Yet another drawings/photos worth a thousand words.

Something as short and straightforward as that mock-up avoids 4/5ths of the grief that was knocking about in the above posts. Minimal standing water in pipe, top side intercept and large pipe diameter... Ah, if only I will be so blessed. Thanks for sharing
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Old 09-08-2012, 12:10 PM   #123
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Thanks. I think to be safe I am going to vent the back end of the shower trap too. I found an easy way to do it by combining the back sink drain and the vent together.
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Old 09-08-2012, 08:37 PM   #124
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I went ahead and glued it up with the additional vent to the back of the main drain line. The vertical pipe will go to the bathroom sink and up to a vent on the roof. It will go up through the sink cabinet and then the medicine cabinet on the way.


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I'm going to use the aluminum floor as the shower pan. I drilled holes in the shape of a smiley face, for my kids, and riveted an aluminum fitting underneath it. The fitting is a vacuum fitting that has a flat face on one side and a 1 1/2" tube. After riveting it I pounded on the center with my flush rivet set and indented it a fair bit to help with drainage.

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The fitting fits right into a standard trap fitting I got at Lowes and slides into the Hepvo trap. I'm going to make an access door under the bathroom cabinet and that will let me make all the final connections after I close up the floor and provide access if the trap needs servicing.


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Old 09-13-2012, 07:45 PM   #125
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Put in the final pieces of the belly pan. There was one big sheet that spanned all the way a cross and under the tank. That big piece was pop riveted in place using the big head 3/16" Alum rivets from VTS. Then I bent the final piece up at the back and sides so that it would fit up against the inside of the frame. It took some crude pounding and bending using my trusty nylon head on my rivet gun but I finally got it to fit.

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I buck riveted it to the other piece of belly pan and to the frame since I could easily reach both sides. I sealed the connection to the rear cross member with marine adhesive but didn't use adhesive on the bottom seams thinking that it would be best to let it drain/breathe.
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Old 09-16-2012, 08:52 AM   #126
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Insulated the rear end with 2" foam and sealed the gaps with spray foam. I also insulated the sides of the frame to try and protect the grey tank and plumbing from cold as much as possible. I did not put in a tank heater below the tank but may set it up later to circulate some cabin air through that area. I added the tank monitors and ran the wire through a grommet in the floor to come up inside the kitchen cabinet. I started laying in the pex tubing but will have to wait on an order from Pex supply to connect the plumbing.

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I am trying to figure out theperson for winterizing the hot and cold fresh water supply lines. I have currently laid it out to go out through an existing hole in the frame on the rear left. I'll just have two valves and a T and some kind of bulkhead fitting to use for draining. It will be the lowest point in the system and the furthest to the rear so I should be able to crank up the front of the trailer to do most of the draining. Now I just need to find some sort of stainless bulkhead fitting that I can easily connect to 1/2" Pex.
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