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Old 11-17-2012, 06:58 PM   #155
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I would recommend you spend a little more money on quality tires and not worry too much about an impenetrable wheel well. A single wall steel or aluminum wheel well with some measure of insulation would work just fine.
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:09 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top
I would recommend you spend a little more money on quality tires and not worry too much about an impenetrable wheel well. A single wall steel or aluminum wheel well with some measure of insulation would work just fine.
No arguments on the need for good tires. I have heard stories on the forum, though, of people who thought they had good tires but still had a blowout. I could easily be accused of overdoing a few things on this project so why stop now
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:13 AM   #157
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The strength in the plastics is they absorb slaps by flexing and return to their molded shape with maybe a tear in the outer layer, so adding a layer of foam on the narrow ends for the tire husk to slap seems prudent as the strength in rivets is lateral shear and not 'pull'.

After examining the local-online metal monger offerings of 4'x8' 0.125" sheet, 50XX or 60XX alloys, it appears the economy is there when oversize shipping on the plastic wells price is included IF using local pickup on the sheet stock - as in even with rivets and angle it is nearly a break-even change.

I am looking forward to seeing your interpretation put into action
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:51 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Wabbiteer View Post
The strength in the plastics is they absorb slaps by flexing and return to their molded shape with maybe a tear in the outer layer, so adding a layer of foam on the narrow ends for the tire husk to slap seems prudent as the strength in rivets is lateral shear and not 'pull'.

After examining the local-online metal monger offerings of 4'x8' 0.125" sheet, 50XX or 60XX alloys, it appears the economy is there when oversize shipping on the plastic wells price is included IF using local pickup on the sheet stock - as in even with rivets and angle it is nearly a break-even change.

I am looking forward to seeing your interpretation put into action
I think I can see how flexibility and strength are related. Kind of like the bending tree not breaking. Yesterday, I was able to do the first part which was to buck rivet angles to the underside of my floor. It only required a thin bead of sealant.
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I like this significantly better than the way that the original wheel wells are attached to the channel of goo. I think this will be much cleaner and also allows me to overlap pieces in order to try and keep water out! The vertical pieces of the box will then attach to the tire side of this angle and I think I'll let them hang down an extra 1/2" below the floor to further prevent paths for water to enter my living space.

For me the economy is that I have a bunch of leftover .125" sheet. I bought 4'x10' and only needed 7' so I have 4 3'x4' pieces of .125". I spent about $40 on angles and I already have a wide assortment of rivets plus some marine sealant from a kind and charitable forum member
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:34 PM   #159
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slow progress on aluminum wheel wells.

I cut the pieces of the wheel well that go right next to the exterior skin out of a few scraps of vinyl covered interior aluminum from the few pieces of interior aluminum that were still in the trailer when I got it.
The idea is that this piece will slide into the original wheel well trim piece and then connect to the box with angles. I attached the angle to this piece with 5/32 buck rivets and a bead of vulkem for good measure.
I then put it in place and installed the trim piece and then tied it all together with pop rivets just at the bottom edge. This should provide flexibility to allow a square box to sit next to a curved wall without any exterior penetrations.
Here is a pic of one of the boxes. The white material is the vinyl coated aluminum.
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This is the exterior with the wheel well trim reattached.
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I've cut some of the 1/8" plate to size but may not get to it until the weekend. 4 day weekend could mean serious progress!
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Old 11-25-2012, 08:11 PM   #160
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I had a few other projects this weekend besides eating turkey but I made some progress on the wheel wells. I finished all the sides of the roadside well...

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And 3 of the sides for the curbside well.

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Slowly, slowly, slowly. I get impatient sometimes, but as long as I don't set a final deadline I am much happier.
I hope everyone had a chance to count their many blessings this weekend as I did.

Tim
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:11 PM   #161
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Here are the two wheel wells with all the trim pieces in place. This is taking forever....
I have cut the top pieces and just need to attach them. I'll probably use Olympic rivets since it is hard to get inside of there without taking off the wheels.

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I got a little 1500 watt electric heater which makes it quite nice inside on a 35 degree day. It will be better when I plug the giant wheelwell holes. I wascworking in short sleeves inside today.
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Old 12-26-2012, 05:20 PM   #162
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Finally got the wheel wells done. The little electric heater works much better now that there are no gaping holes to let cold air in.

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I ended up using 3/16" pop rivets since my Olympic Rivets were not long enough. I'll put a tiny drop of Parbond in each one when it is warmer. Now I am getting ready to think about insulation and final surface penetration.
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Old 12-27-2012, 06:13 AM   #163
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Mice were electing a steward to serve you locked-out grievances even as you wrote that...

I lingered at the Northern Tools trailer fender display trying to visualize modifications to their stamped steel trailer fender wells and still keep drifting back to the DIY foot locker method...

Any thoughts or chances on a piece to act as safety strap / excluder to better contain/prevent a tire husk rolling up inside the box at 65 mph and lifting the lid or end wall of a (our) well tubs?

Also - I wonder if the box shape will choog-a-loog vibrate in the wind stream like opening a rear window in a econobox small car at 70mph without another window being open

Sorry to detract from the beauteous milestone of enclosing your Caravelle
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:42 PM   #164
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Mice are still happy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wabbiteer View Post
Mice were electing a steward to serve you locked-out grievances even as you wrote that...

I lingered at the Northern Tools trailer fender display trying to visualize modifications to their stamped steel trailer fender wells and still keep drifting back to the DIY foot locker method...

Any thoughts or chances on a piece to act as safety strap / excluder to better contain/prevent a tire husk rolling up inside the box at 65 mph and lifting the lid or end wall of a (our) well tubs?

Also - I wonder if the box shape will choog-a-loog vibrate in the wind stream like opening a rear window in a econobox small car at 70mph without another window being open

Sorry to detract from the beauteous milestone of enclosing your Caravelle
Thanks Wabbiteer! I hear the clapping and as always I appreciate the thoughtful feedback. Unfortunately, there are stlll a few smaller gaps which are big enough for the mice! I did not create a inner box although I thought about it a lot. As it is, the box is really really strong and rigid so I don't think it will move much. The 1/8" plate and all the 90 degree angles makes for a very sturdy structure, but I don't know if the large flat piece will vibrate up and down under wind load. I need a volunteer with good insurance to ride back there while I am driving at 70. In the spring when the two feet of snow melts, I hope to coat the wheel side of it with something strong and durable like a truck bed liner (all suggestions are appreciated) that would be compatible with aluminum and maybe have some insulation properties. One interesting advantage of this design is that the wheel wells are structural so they can be used as supports for cabinetry.
Regarding the "excluder", I had thought about riveting in a piece of thick rubber in an arch over the tire and filling the dead space with foam. As it stands I am going to stick with the simple box and fix it later if there is a problem or if somebody else comes up with an elegant solution
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:08 PM   #165
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Insulation musings

So I've read every post I can find about insulation and am still trying to get my head around what to do. My 20' Caravelle has 3" of sheet foam in the floor with an 1/8" aluminum top. I have single pane glass windows which I'm sure are pretty much just stop the transfer of inside and outside air.
Things that I know that I will do:
-Use a thermal break between the ribs and the inner skin. Maybe the 3M 8592 that Wabbiteer recommends or something else that won't compress significantly.
-make some simple prodex window covering for the windows for hot and cold weather camping.
- Seal all cracks from the inside with Vulkem except weep holes along the bottom.
Things that I am considering:
-pay somebody too much money to spray in 1 1/2" of spray foam throughout the trailer. I would install conduit for all wiring before.
-Install aluminum foil backed polyisocyanurate sheet foam in the walls and ceiling and seal off with aluminum foil tape for a vapor barrier.
-Install 2 layers of prodex throughout separated by air space.
My main priorities are sound deadening and keeping cool in the summer. Cost and weight matter of course, but sound abatement will matter most to my wife who values her sleep and thus it matters a lot to me too.
My sense is that the sprayed in foam will be the best for sound deadening. The prodex will be best for summer cooling. All of them will be doable on my geologic time scale. The prodex or sheet foam should be cheaper.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:36 AM   #166
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Have a look at UHMW plastic .125 or thicker (it is used to line dump trucks ,rock chutes Ect. My 1988 squarstream has urathane foam every ware. use cork strips
for covering ribs. you can git 2 pane custom argon filed windos made. Artic tost and peep free.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:42 AM   #167
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Since I haven't read those same insulation threads for about 16 months now, I don't recall the specific details, but I thought there were some pretty significant arguments against the spray foam. My recollection was concerns over the stuff falling apart in the walls due to vibration and rapid temperature changes as the metal expands and contracts, pulling away the bonds between the foam particles.

If I had to do it all over again, I would go with Darkspeed's ceramic insulator. I am sold on that stuff. I wish he was still around the forums to talk about it's road worthiness, but I would be willing to pay the money for it to give it a shot. I guess I'll wait for the next trailer.

The biggest thing I've learned for insulation is dead air is a problem in our trailer. When it has been 90F out but there is even a slight breeze, we open the windows and the trailer is nice and cool inside. When there is no wind and it is 90F out, it is upwards of 80F inside the trailer. We have one layer of 3/4" rigid foam as spacers (covering 50% of the area), one layer of reflectix, and on the roof we have the foam sandwiched between two layers of reflectix.

And re: keeping the ribs covered, I wish I could have done more of that. I was reusing hte existing metal, so I couldn't get even a single layer of 1/8" foam tape (which compresses to 1/16") on the ribs, or else the original skins wouldn't line up to the right holes on the interior. If I was installing all new metal, I would put thick cork everywhere.

Even without feeling the rivets, I could do blind tests with my hands on the trailer walls and tell you with exact precision where all the ribs are due to the extreme temperature differences. Pretty incredible.

Ok I think I'm done forcing my opinions down your throat. Good Luck!
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:28 PM   #168
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If one is making a pool cabana house never meant to tow will the next owner(s) agree with the compromises? Nothing against the suggestions here, the advantage theory of a cork-type thermal break is obvious but difficult to execute on something meant to go 25 or 40 years between rehabs with 100's or 1000's of hours in-motion trips above the Arctic Circle and Mexico (or such) that are completely possible. Even a heavy layer of brown craft paper would stagger heat transfer better than metal-to-metal, lets not fixate on cork or bicycle handlebar tape when all of the 20th and 21st century manufacturing is open game

Sun heated metal temperatures can go over 212F on a bright calm day - consumer grade cork might withstand that for a short time if they had zero contact with oxygen, as if clamped between cast iron manifolds or the like, but a simple layer on the ribs would break down, dry rot and become brittle, pretty rapidly unless the engineering specs were carefully chosen. Then if the cork binding resin is toughened up to withstand temperatures and humidity the R-value factor decreases dramatically to where another material would be more suitable.

And the compression of cork means fatiguing rapidly to give a loose of mechanical bond, maybe alright on a motionless domestic structure but add it to a shimmeying, oscillating trailer and the black-ring loose rivet syndrome will appear just down the road a ways.

Anyhow - on my trailer whatever gets applied to the outer shells' inside surface will be applied after the metal is treated with conversion processes to protect and boost bonding, the old etch & chromate passivate treatments as done on aircraft...
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