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Old 09-15-2007, 09:34 PM   #21
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Following up on 2air's suggestion to look at Classic's from the latter '90's, the threads make it seem there are Classics, Classic Excellas and Excellas. It seems like the words are used interchangeably at times, or perhaps the Excellas are lighter, possibly cheaper versions of the Classics. Can someone educate me? I am getting addicted to these forums (thirst for learning problem) and must go back to my real life.
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Old 09-23-2007, 06:17 PM   #22
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The quest continues

We visited new Airstreams in Colorado Springs and they are quite luscious. We didn't like the rear baths with the bed next to the door because you have to squeeze in sideways and our knees hit the door when trying out the toilet. The 20' Safari with the sizable rear galley is a nice design, but the bed seems cramped and because of the partitions next to the bed feels small.

We really wanted to look at the 25's, but they didn't have any. The 27's are very similar, but we'd like to see how subtracting almost two feet feels. The 25' FB has everything we're looking for. Our '02 Tundra has a combined weight rating of 11,800 lbs and a curb weight of 4,664, 4,824 with gas and more with humans (it would've been 5,100 in 1986, bigger people now). Add 100 lbs. in the truck for supplies and added human weight gain since we met, Tundra now 5,200. That leaves 6,600 lbs. before we reach the Tundra's combined weight limit. The International FB 25's empty are 5,410, Safari's 5,210. Since the Safari's probably are the same with options as the Internationals, that leaves 1,190 for cargo, propane and water. Propane and water are 544, leaving 646 lbs for cargo. We weighed some things, guessed on others, adding together food, clothes, tools, shoes, cleaning supplies, paper products, linens, a couple of director's chairs and outside table, vacuum, books, maps, hose, extension cord, plates, utensils, flashlight, towels, camera, laptop, etc., 437 lbs. That leaves 229 lbs. for hitch assembly, sway bar and forgotten things that want to come along.

Of course, I don't know what the Tundra really weighs with the options on it—we'll be near a scale on Wednesday. And a specific Airstream may have options that increase its weight. We hope we overestimated the cargo, but it seems doable. We'd be 700 or 800 lbs below the tow limit of 7,100 lbs. and at least as much below the cargo capacity of the trailer. We'd just be within the Tundra's combined weight rating unless I'm way off on something. Am I? Will I be going up Vail Pass at 25 mph?

We'll have to find time to go to Denver to look at more versions. I checked on the SLC dealer and he only had 3 in stock. And I've got to get started on making changes in the plat for the lot we own next to our house and lot and getting it through the planning department so we can sell that other lot—that'll take a while. And I'll have to make some changes in the Tundra to upgrade the electrical system for a trailer (it only has a 4-contact plug) and provide for trailer brakes. I'll keep reading and looking for ads on used ones, recent and 90's.

This is fun.
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Old 09-23-2007, 08:37 PM   #23
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welcome to the Forums,, good luck with the search,, that is the fun part,,, for one,, i am very happy with my 1997 25 foot Safari,, rear full bed,, side bath,, very comparable to the same year Classic,,, minus wood work and some extras,,, all of which you could add at a later date,,, take your time,,, it is well worth it,,, donna
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Old 09-25-2007, 08:15 AM   #24
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Sounds like you are on the right path with your research and thoughts about weights. Of course, the only true way to know is to load her up and weigh her. But, it seems you have enough play to be relatively safe if that 700# is below the 80% mark.

Going up Vail Pass? I don't know because I am unfamiliar with that part of the U.S., but I can say this: Gasoline engines loose efficiency with altitude so you wouldn't be the only one being passed by pedestrians by the time you get to the top of the mountain. On the other hand, you might do just fine. I don't know how long you plan on keeping your Toyota, but I would suspect that when you get ready to replace it, you would be planning to upgrade to 3/4 ton. This is not a bad thing and if that time frame is, say three years, you could just plan to take low altitude vacations for the first three years and then head for the higher elevations. We have gone through two camping seasons already and it seems like we are just getting started. You'd be surprised how many great camping opportunities there are besides the dream trips that we all have. For my personal family, the dream drip includes the Grand Canyon, Brice Canyon, Yellowstone, Mt. Rushmore, and other locations in the west. But until we can make those trips in two or three years when our youngest is old enough to really remember them, we have lots of places to go to and see in the east.

Good luck with your research and with your decision on "what to buy."
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Old 09-25-2007, 10:45 AM   #25
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Mate: What is the 80% mark? Everytime I think I understand the all the weight calculations, there's a new one (to me).

As for altitude, we live at 6,836' in western Colorado (Vail Pass is about 11,000 or more). The computers on modern motor vehicles pretty much compensate for altitude automatically and have lessened, but not eliminated, altitude problems. Nevertheless, 11,000 feet is a lot for any truck towing 6,000 lbs. at a 7% grade.

I don't know where Fayetteville is, but we've enjoyed Savannah and the Ga. music museum in Macon. When you come out west, don't forget Zion NP. Bryce Canyon (not really a canyon) is cool, Zion is a lot more. And then there's Canyonlands NP and Arches NP, the Mojave Desert and Death Valley in winter, and on and on. We've been traveling the NP's since I got my Golden Age pass and we've not covered them all.
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:17 AM   #26
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the 80% rule is more of a guideline...

the notion is after determining the gcwr, payload, gvwr (4 tv and trailer) and carry capacity...

use 80% of those limits to build in an extra margin of safety...

instead of being max'd out on each or all limits....

also consider that the tires and axles have individual limits to consider...

foul/hot weather, wind, fatigue, a tire blow out, traffic, emergency maneuvers, inclines and long declines...

the unexpected load of motherinlaws or souvenir rocks...

these things all effect the towing experience....

so primarily it is a safety thing in trying to hold to '80%'

but it is also a pleasure of travel issue...

not being 'at the limits' just makes towing easier and more relaxed and more fun.

so few actually weigh things in their approach to the figures so using 80% of their estimates helps too...

weighing things and understanding the issues, as it appears you r approaching this is the key...

trailers....

if ya want a walk around REAR bed the newest classic models no longer offer a 25 like this....

'last decade' units, as discussed do...

so do the recent/new safaris

i prefer a longitudinal bed as opposed to the transverse bed in some models...

it's easier to make the longitudinal bed level...

trucks

yes modern vehicles 'adjust' for altitude...

but they still don't maintain hp or torque or grow bigger brakes...

forced induction is the key 2 hp/torque at altitude...

your 'yota is gonna be marginal for any modern 25 and given your location...

yes it can work but given the needs for power, brakes, cooling capacity and tranny life...

a new 'yota or new 150 or 250 will be much more appropriate....

happy hunting

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Old 09-25-2007, 12:20 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene
Mate: What is the 80% mark? Everytime I think I understand the all the weight calculations, there's a new one (to me).

As for altitude, we live at 6,836' in western Colorado (Vail Pass is about 11,000 or more). The computers on modern motor vehicles pretty much compensate for altitude automatically and have lessened, but not eliminated, altitude problems. Nevertheless, 11,000 feet is a lot for any truck towing 6,000 lbs. at a 7% grade.

I don't know where Fayetteville is, but we've enjoyed Savannah and the Ga. music museum in Macon. When you come out west, don't forget Zion NP. Bryce Canyon (not really a canyon) is cool, Zion is a lot more. And then there's Canyonlands NP and Arches NP, the Mojave Desert and Death Valley in winter, and on and on. We've been traveling the NP's since I got my Golden Age pass and we've not covered them all.
The 80% rule is just a rule of thumb that 'most everyone here on the forum goes by. It is to not exceed the tow vehicle's max tow capacity by 80% to have a comfortable/safe towing zone. That gives you 20% safety factor and fudge factor for those times when you might take more stuff than usual, but mainly as a means of not putting too much wear on the tow vehicle. Some of that, of course, is dependent on how often you tow. If you only tow twice a year for short trips, you might shave a some off the 20%. In your case where you tow in the mountains, I'd stick with the 20% margin for comfort and safety.

Fayetteville is a Metro-Atlanta bedroom community about 20 miles due south of Atlanta Hartsfield-Jackson Int'l Airport (a real mouthful!) It is the county seat of Fayette county and home of Peachtree City, GA. Peachtree City is the oldest Planned Urban Development in the U. S. Even in the 1950's it was planned with golf cart paths to connect the neighborhoods and "villages". There are more than 89 miles of golf cart paths in P'tree City connecting every neighborhood and all five villages (small business centers). Prior to 9/11, P'tree City was like base housing for Delta Airlines and had the highest per capita income in the southeast. In the late 70's and early 80's, P'tree City had the highest number of golf courses in the U.S. After the growth spurt in the 80's & 90's, it lost that title to Palm Springs. P'tree City has always been seen as somewhat transient while Fayetteville has been seen as the stable, native Fayette County resident's home. We built there because it was more long term than transient. We have lived here for more than 12 years. Sorry to go on so, but I have always liked Fayetteville because it reminds me of my home town. Peachtree City is just neat because of how it was planned.

Our youngest is seven and when he is ten we plan on taking our first trip "out west". As you point out there are soooo many beautiful natural wonders to see once you get past the Mississippi. Not to say there isn't beauty east of the Mississippi, but the west has a natural beauty unlike anything we have on the east coast. When I was seven my family took a cross country trip from Georgia to California. I remember the Redwood National Forest in Yosemite and the Painted Desert and the Petrified Forest and many other sites along the way. On the return trip we were within 30 miles of the entrance to the South-rim of the Grand Canyon but my dad was in a hurry to get back home to rest up before returning to work after 2-1/2 weeks on the road with a pop-up camper and two young kids in the car. He regretted not stopping at the Grand Canyon 'till the day he died. I don't want to have that kind of regrets with my two boys.
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:31 PM   #28
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Well, it looks like 2Air beat me to the "submit" key. But, at least we are on the same page so we aren't confusing anyone.
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Old 09-25-2007, 07:54 PM   #29
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I was thinking 80% meant just what it sounds like. Confused again. That dealer (not the drug ones) tried to convince me I could tow a 27' and then tried to show me the GCWR for a 2008, not the 2002, Tundra… That's when I started wondering about this salesman. I plan to buy a new Tundra in a couple of years, but $35-40 K for a new truck just ain't in the near term plans.

Without getting out the calculator, I would be at around 84-5% for the trailer GVWR, same for Tundra's tow limit, but 98% of GCWR. I've never liked the Tundra's brakes or handling that much, but am probably being a typical picky Toyota owner. I plan on getting the Jordan Ultima brake controller (I think it was 2air's recommendation on another thread) because it appeared the safest. I might put 10 plies on the truck. As I get older, safety becomes more of an issue. Decades of driving in terrible winter conditions and doing 10,000+ mile road trips without mishaps make me feel pretty confident of both of us handling a trailer and not being idiots on the road. My experience with Toyotas is that they are far more bullet proof than anything else I've driven, but every machine has its limits. I don't want to take chances and am trying to balance all these considerations. What truck works now, what we will drive in a few years, what trailer fits our needs for a long time. I haven't found much information about the mid/late '90's Classics and don't understand what thew difference is between them and Excellas. This process of discovery and rediscovery will take plenty of time… Best way to make an expensive decision.

And, "Mate", my father did stop at Grand Canyon (back in the mid '50's) and we spent a whole 2 hours. He kept telling me to keep back from the wall because he was afraid of heights (I ignored that). My wife, Barb, got about 2 hours from her father when she was a kid. Must be a father thing—in too much of a rush. Since then my wife, Barb, and I have spent several days each at both the North and South Rim. You just have to go back and do it right. Park the trailers and stay in the historic hotels; it's worth the experience.
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Old 09-26-2007, 08:01 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene
...I plan to buy a new Tundra in a couple of years, but $35-40 K for a new truck just ain't in the near term plans.

Without getting out the calculator, I would be at around 84-5% for the trailer GVWR, same for Tundra's tow limit, but 98% of GCWR. I've never liked the Tundra's brakes or handling that much, but am probably being a typical picky Toyota owner. ....
This concerns me a bit. The brakes and handling are key, key, key, key safety factors in towing. I would really seriously reconsider buying another Tundra if you have issues with the brakes or handling on your current one and feel that is typical of the Tundra model. It will only be magnified when towing. While I think Ford's F-250's tow command's built in brake controller is tops, and probably the same can be said for Chevy's new built in brake controller on their heavy duty trucks, I'm not trying to sell you on an American brand. But I would have reservations about buying another truck that has brakes and handling that have given you questionable performance in the past. If you like imports, why don't you look at one of the other import brands like the Nissan or Honda Ridgeline. I think folks here on the forums that have towed with them have been pleased with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene
And, "Mate", my father did stop at Grand Canyon (back in the mid '50's) and we spent a whole 2 hours. He kept telling me to keep back from the wall because he was afraid of heights (I ignored that). My wife, Barb, got about 2 hours from her father when she was a kid. Must be a father thing—in too much of a rush. Since then my wife, Barb, and I have spent several days each at both the North and South Rim. You just have to go back and do it right. Park the trailers and stay in the historic hotels; it's worth the experience.
I'm thinking either "Trailer Village" or as you say, the historic hotel experience. One of the main things I want to do with the kids is the day trip mule train into the canyon. I know that is a year in advance booking kind of thing during peak months so I'll have to plan that one far in advance.

I think the Grand Canyon was a dad thing because guys like big, robust, rustic things in nature. I know I always wished we had stopped on that trip.
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Old 09-26-2007, 12:00 PM   #31
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"The brakes and handling are key, key, key, key safety factors in towing." Agreed, "Mate". I can be faulted for comparing large truck handling and brakes with my previous Tacoma or a couple of 4Runners, especially the 2006 4R (stability control and anti-skid are amazing). I've driven this Tundra to the North Slope of Alaska and through five Colorado winters and never had a problem. Besides, if it started acting squirrely, I'd be the first one to slow down (then I'd have to buy a 2008 Tundra). We tried it with a truck camper 5 years ago and it handled fine, though the camper was full of defects and was returned. I'm more concerned about maxing out the GCWR, though my experience is it takes a hell of a lot to break a Toyota. No disrespect to US products, which have improved tremendously and almost too late (compared with my father's 1985 Olds, a car I should have refused to inherit), but my experience with Toyotas is excellent. "Mate", I take your concern quite seriously and appreciate it. Perhaps I overstated my subjective desire to have a pickup drive like a sportscar.
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Old 09-26-2007, 12:51 PM   #32
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I'd never heard anyone complaining about the brakes or handling of a Toyota truck before. My Dad's last truck was a Toyota T-100 extended cab and he really liked it until he had to quit driving after his last stroke. My Mom sold it when my Dad went into a nursing home. She liked it too and even considered keeping it and selling her Grand Marquis because the truck seats were higher and easier for my Dad to get into and out of when she would take him out for special outings. But, in the end, she felt a car better suited her needs than a truck.
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Old 09-26-2007, 06:03 PM   #33
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We had to go to the local Toyota dealer for an alignment today and those new Tundras are very tempting. GCWR: 16K lbs.; tow capacity 10+K; 300+ HP, 4.30 rear end, lots of safety features. There are '07's around and I'm going to check Edmunds, etc., on invoices. I've tried to be strong and keep my '02 low mileage Tundra, but we're out of control. Barb and I are weak when it comes to new trucks—a perfect but expensive marriage. Just have to sell the adjoining 10 acres soon!
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Old 09-26-2007, 06:35 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene
We had to go to the local Toyota dealer for an alignment today and those new Tundras are very tempting. GCWR: 16K lbs.; tow capacity 10+K; 300+ HP, 4.30 rear end, lots of safety features. There are '07's around and I'm going to check Edmunds, etc., on invoices. I've tried to be strong and keep my '02 low mileage Tundra, but we're out of control. Barb and I are weak when it comes to new trucks—a perfect but expensive marriage. Just have to sell the adjoining 10 acres soon!
Did someone say 10 acres for sale in Colorado????
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Old 09-28-2007, 07:43 PM   #35
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After thinking over all the good advice regarding tow vehicles plus talking to one of service managers at the local dealer plus thinking about all the magical improvements in the past few years (anti-skid, stability and traction control, air bags everywhere) plus our weakness for new motor vehicles, we made a deal on an '07 Tundra—381 HP, 401 lbs torque, more advanced tow package plus tow mirrors, etc. This is a very different truck than the previous Tundras and the Tacomas now seem to be as big as the older Tundras. At my age it may be my last truck, so why not? The '08's are starting to show up, lots of '07's still around. I sure hope gas doesn't go to $5 (I paid that much in northern Canada last year, but it doesn't feel as bad when you see the price per liter).

Now I can start getting more serious about a trailer without making myself crazy about weights. For us a 25' seems a good balance—fits in campgrounds easily, big enough to spend weeks traveling. A good deal on a 27' is not out of the question though.

Several years ago we bought the undeveloped lot next to us to keep a trophy home from being built in our view of the West Elk Mountains. I need to make some changes and run it through the planning dep't—that can take forever—to provide a building and height envelope, better covenants, etc. and then sell it. That will make it easier to get an Airstream although I am concerned about the corrosion issues since 1999. From what I read on a corrosion thread A/S execs are in denial since they can sell everything they make. That's sad. Bad news always lasts longer than good news and denial always costs more money. No hurry and we can learn more.

Thanks again for all the advice. You can read my thinking out loud all through this thread. I tried to talk myself into keeping the old Tundra, but couldn't.
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Old 10-01-2007, 11:32 AM   #36
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Congratulations on the new truck! Now on to the Airstream.

BTW, I have a 2006 and have had it for two seasons without waxing it yet and, I'm 'shamed to say, I've only washed it twice and I haven't had any corrosion on it yet. Maybe part of the corrosion problem has been premature waxing!
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Old 10-06-2007, 04:53 PM   #37
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New truck pix

After putting a few hundred miles on the new Tundra, I can report it feels very different from and superior to my 2002. The suspension is far better and the steering much more responsive. Going around curves fast, the truck stays close to level. As I get more used to it, I can feel the road better. When I crawled around under it, there's no comparison with the 2002—everything is bigger— rear U joints look about 75% larger, for example.

One problem—I can't find the oil filter. The 4.7L had it in a pretty difficult place to change, but the one on the 5.7L appears to be invisible. Must be a new Toyota invention—no filter necessary!

This Tundra version has 1,580 # payload. If I understand it correctly, the formula is: (trailer hitch weight + propane tanks filled + truck options + humans + other cargo in truck) x 80% = nirvana. If a different, aftermarket, heavier hitch was installed on the trailer, I guess that would increase "hitch weight". Since Toyota includes gas in curb wt., I don't have to add that in. Does the 80% standard apply to this, or only to GCVWR, trailer wt., etc.?

I am trying to read every pertinent thread (partly through 2air's "haha" one for ex.) so when it comes time to seriously search for an Airstream, we don't make serious mistake.

I've tried to attach the picture (with Colorado's West Elk Mtns. in background and my leach field underneath truck), but I don't know what I'm doing and refuse to read any instructions (I'm old enough to have learned to read instructions most of the time, but sometimes I just slip into guy mode). The picture may be there, maybe not…

Airstream Forums

I guess just click on Airsteam Forums—still don't know how to get it into this box.
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Old 10-06-2007, 05:21 PM   #38
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hi c-g'

hey i'll be IN grand junction shortly and plan to overnight in rifle!

close as the crow flies...

for 'payload' include ALL truck cargo/options/people + tongue weight (this will include lpgas)+the hitch...

and shoot for 80-90% of that figure.

the gcwr (everything rolling) is the ultimate figure and again 80% is ideal...

imo one can fudge a tad on truck payload (without exceeding) IF the gcwr is respected.

trailer brakes and suspension do help control the total riggin'...

cheers
2air'

oil filter? have you check the owners manual...
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Old 10-06-2007, 07:29 PM   #39
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Thanks 2air. I will weigh the truck once I get a hard tonneau for it to see what the payload really is. GCVWR for this truck is 16K and it can tow 10,300 #. Since I'm thinking of a 25' FB, I can be well within those limits, but payload is the weak link and probably makes the difference between 1/2 and 3/4 ton. Maybe this is a 5/8 ton. I don't know why they couldn't add a leaf to the springs—with all the other stuff they've done to this truck, wouldn't that make a big difference? Toyota loads these with options (and so do I), and the running boards, tonneau and heavy duty battery and starter sure add up. I'm guessing 300-350 # of options. We'd better start dieting.

Owner's manual tells nothing about oil filter location—they want us to have the dealer change it. Ha! I've searched above and below with flashlight and can't see it. It must be hidden by a skid plate. I'll call Toyota with my usual bunch of questions they can't answer.

The Grand Valley is (was) beautiful, but drilling for natural gas is ruining it and Rifle is in the center. Noisy rigs and compressors, bad air and many residents with respiratory problems (ozone, particulates, drilling and frac'ing chemicals) and worse—seal the windows—or go on to Glenwood. Rifle is about 125 miles NW of here by road.
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Old 10-06-2007, 07:59 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene
We had to go to the local Toyota dealer for an alignment today and those new Tundras are very tempting. GCWR: 16K lbs.; tow capacity 10+K; 300+ HP, 4.30 rear end, lots of safety features. There are '07's around and I'm going to check Edmunds, etc., on invoices. I've tried to be strong and keep my '02 low mileage Tundra, but we're out of control. Barb and I are weak when it comes to new trucks—a perfect but expensive marriage. Just have to sell the adjoining 10 acres soon!
Well, it's plain to see... y'all got aluminitus. Yeah, yeah, convinced yourselves whilst getting some work done that you needed a new truck... all along in your subconscious though, was this nagging thought... "airstreamairstreamairstream...bigger truck...".

It's kind of like those old sci-fi flicks. Space invaders come and slowly 'inhabit' one person at a time. Then, before you know it, the whole neighborhood's gone. It's like that with an Airstream...
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