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02-17-2011, 03:48 PM
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#1
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Wise Elder
2010 30' Classic
Vintage Kin Owner
South of the river
, Minnesota
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,169
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Why trailers burn
Nearly all RV fires are of electrical origin, despite the recent attention to fridge fires (which are statistically still quite rare).
What are the failures that most commonly lead to such fires? What can we do to prevent them?
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02-17-2011, 05:00 PM
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#2
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Rivet Master
2005 25' Safari
Trabuco Canyon
, California
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 866
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Question I have is the main positive cable running off the battery, where is the first fuse/breaker on that wire? How far through the trailer does it go unfused?
On the 120 volt side maybe termination of the outlets when running high draw heaters, etc.
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02-17-2011, 05:34 PM
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#3
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Rivet Master
1991 34' Excella
1963 26' Overlander
1961 26' Overlander
Central
, Mississippi
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,919
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An eye opener is to walk thru an RV salvage lot, like Cowas...Lots of BBQ'd RV's from the dash and rear engine area...I don't recall seeing any trailers though...
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02-17-2011, 05:40 PM
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#4
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Moderator
1968 17' Caravel
Battle Ground
, Washington
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,255
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I'm curious about how many vintage trailers have electrical fires caused by the old aluminum wiring. I was unable to rewire my trailer when we did the shell-on floor replacement, so when I needed a new outlet, I was told to use one made for aluminum wires. So I stole an outlet from back in the bathroom, which I didn't need, and installed it next to the new converter. But I do wonder how much risk there really is in the old wiring in my trailer.
__________________
Stephanie
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02-17-2011, 05:46 PM
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#5
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3 Rivet Member
1972 27' Overlander
Venice
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 180
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Many times during the week I go out and sit in my AS. Sometimes I wonder how it has lasted 38 years and if it will die on my watch. I have fused many of the wires and replaced a lot of the LP gas pipes to prevent this from happening. I bought new smoke detecters to install but they won't do much good if no one is in the trailer. I think my next preventive maintenance is to get rid of the old humm box and put in a state of the art unit. I sure would hate to be the one that lets this beautiful trailer go up in flames.
Doug
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02-17-2011, 06:56 PM
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#7
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Retired.
Currently Looking...
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, At Large
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,276
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Okay, I'll tell you about a little-known fire hazard on some 1970's model Airstreams. One you wouldn't even think about. I didn't, until I set an Overlander on fire with it.
Now that I have your attention, how many of us with that era Airstream have the umbilical receptacle in the front of the trailer, behind the LP tanks? How many of them are the original, kind of grey-ish, plastic-y looking ones?
Guess what I found out.
They aren't plastic.
They're magnesium.
That's right.
The stuff they make highway flares out of, because it ignites easily, burns bright, AND YOU CAN'T PUT IT OUT!!! Water makes it much worse.
I set a trailer on fire by the simple act of cutting off the rusted-on mounting bolts with a cutoff wheel. The wheel made the magnesium hot enough it ignited. I got a nice, red flame from it.
You never saw somebody move as fast as i did running inside the trailer, throwing aside the gaucho cushions, nipping the smouldering wires off it, and kicking it outside the trailer, where it continued to sizzle and spume.
After my heart started beating again, I called the boss over, showed him the flaming plug, and gently misted a small amount of water on it. It flared up immediately, it's good it wasn't still on the trailer, or it would have become an aluminum marshmallow.
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02-17-2011, 07:01 PM
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#8
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Rivet Master
1979 23' Safari
1954 29' Liner
Orange
, California
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,850
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Terry,
Are the new ones the same construction?
Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by overlander63
Okay, I'll tell you about a little-known fire hazard on some 1970's model Airstreams. One you wouldn't even think about. I didn't, until I set an Overlander on fire with it.
Now that I have your attention, how many of us with that era Airstream have the umbilical receptacle in the front of the trailer, behind the LP tanks? How many of them are the original, kind of grey-ish, plastic-y looking ones?
Guess what I found out.
They aren't plastic.
They're magnesium.
That's right.
The stuff they make highway flares out of, because it ignites easily, burns bright, AND YOU CAN'T PUT IT OUT!!! Water makes it much worse.
I set a trailer on fire by the simple act of cutting off the rusted-on mounting bolts with a cutoff wheel. The wheel made the magnesium hot enough it ignited. I got a nice, red flame from it.
You never saw somebody move as fast as i did running inside the trailer, throwing aside the gaucho cushions, nipping the smouldering wires off it, and kicking it outside the trailer, where it continued to sizzle and spume.
After my heart started beating again, I called the boss over, showed him the flaming plug, and gently misted a small amount of water on it. It flared up immediately, it's good it wasn't still on the trailer, or it would have become an aluminum marshmallow.
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__________________
Bill Kerfoot, WBCCI/VAC/CAC/El Camino Real Unit #5223
Just my personal opinion
1973 Dodge W200 PowerWagon, 1977 Lincoln Continental, 2014 Dodge Durango
1979 23' Safari, and 1954 29' Double Door Liner Orange, CA
https://billbethsblog.blogspot.com/
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02-17-2011, 07:04 PM
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#9
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Retired.
Currently Looking...
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, At Large
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkerfoot
Terry,
Are the new ones the same construction?
Bill
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No, the new ones are aluminum or pot metal. Non-ignitable. The only plastic ones are pretty obviously black plastic. Now you know why the fire department was at the shop in Riverside a year or so ago...
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02-17-2011, 07:10 PM
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#10
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4 Rivet Member
2017 23' International
Ridgefield
, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 306
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Fire Extinguishers
We receive our new AS next week! Hooray!!
As with our fiver we will carry an "extra" ABC extinguisher on the inside under the sink, and another stored on the outside compartment, probably on the side of the AS.
I certainly will watch for the hot wire from the battery system to the main jack, and enclose it if necessary.
Great thread. Thank you....Zigi
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02-17-2011, 07:22 PM
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#11
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Rivet Master
1963 26' Overlander
Austin
, Texas
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlander63
until I set an Overlander on fire with it..
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Ummmm... Terry...? That was a CLIENT'S Overlander, right????
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02-17-2011, 07:44 PM
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#12
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Restorations done right
Commercial Member
1962 26' Overlander
1961 26' Overlander
Vintage Kin Owner
Currently Looking...
Baltimore
, Maryland
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefrobrts
I'm curious about how many vintage trailers have electrical fires caused by the old aluminum wiring. I was unable to rewire my trailer when we did the shell-on floor replacement, so when I needed a new outlet, I was told to use one made for aluminum wires. So I stole an outlet from back in the bathroom, which I didn't need, and installed it next to the new converter. But I do wonder how much risk there really is in the old wiring in my trailer.
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considering the aluminum wiring was only one year, very few due to aluminum wire.
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02-17-2011, 07:55 PM
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#13
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Rivet Master
1971 31' Sovereign
1967 22' Safari
1958 22' World Traveler
Pardeeville
, Wisconsin
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 569
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The aluminum wire in my 67 is just fine...Im not planning on replacing it either. Im NOT running an high demand appliances in it either...
__________________
Jay (KB8VMO)
WBCCI #10917
AIR #32349
TAC #WI-2
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02-17-2011, 07:57 PM
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#14
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Retired.
Currently Looking...
.
, At Large
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by utee94
Ummmm... Terry...? That was a CLIENT'S Overlander, right????
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It was a '77... Looked like it had been dredged up out of the bottom of Lake Elsinore...
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02-17-2011, 07:59 PM
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#15
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Retired.
Currently Looking...
.
, At Large
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 62overlander
considering the aluminum wiring was only one year, very few due to aluminum wire.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aircooled4
The aluminum wire in my 67 is just fine...Im not planning on replacing it either. Im NOT running an high demand appliances in it either...
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I've seen aluminum wiring on a '68 Overlander, so it looks like it was at least part of 2 years.
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02-17-2011, 08:27 PM
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#16
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Rivet Master
Commercial Member
Vintage Kin Owner
Naples
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,508
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I've seen a few fires recently and worked on one that the owner caught just in time. In the trailer case, the battery was connected to the trailer thru a DC circuit breaker, but a cheap one (not the marine type as it should have been).
The wiring from the battery to his DC power center/converter ran up along the trailer frame and was not wrapped in wire loom and was not firmly attached to the frame as it should have been. In his travels, he actually rubbed the insulation from the hot lead right along the frame rail due to excessive play in the wires and created a welding action from the power in his battery that fused the contacts in the DC breaker AND in his mechanical battery disconnect switch creating a direct DC pathway to his frame and a dead short thru the negative bus bar and frame.
He smelled something burning and was able to remove the positive lead from the battery just before the wiring ignited! I had to remove his belly pan and run 30 feet of new power wiring to the DC power center, replace the entire fuse block, converter and a bunch of other ancillary wiring. ALL of the insulation from his ground wires was burnt or melted away from the copper. NOT PRETTY!
Then just a couple of weeks ago, a 2010 Marathon Prevost ($1.6 MILLION) burnt in the engine bay, destroying the entire rear section of the coach. Luckily, these coaches have a very stout fire wall between the engine compartment (Detroit Diesel 600 HP engine) and the rest of the coach, and that is what saved the forward section of the coach. We think that his auxiliary battery charging system (the one that kept the engine batteries fully charged while on shore power) malfunctioned or was improperly connected to his batteries (some were 12VDC and others were connected in series for 24VDC), overcharged the batteries causing them to outgas (they were inexplicably liquid cell batteries!) and the hydrogen sulfide being emitted ignited and literally blew up the remaining batteries. It was very quick!
Then there were a couple of fridge fires (BOTH Norcold 1200 LRIM models that are now under a retrofit recall) which totally consumed both motor homes. Not pretty either!
Moral of the story........be sure that you have the proper circuit protection on your batteries and their charging systems. I prefer either class T fuses that have a very high resistance to being fused together in emergency situations, ANL type fuses which are not quite as stout as the class T variety, or a quality marine (Blue Sea Systems) DC circuit breaker. All of these protection devices should be placed in immediate proximity of the batteries.
And not to alarm you, but your Airstreams use the same type of cheap DC circuit breaker that fused together in the first tale of the trailer fire. Check out the poor excuse for a wiring bus in the front of your newer trailers and you will see the little plastic and copper DC circuit breakers in use. They fit very neatly into their proper little holders, but after seeing how easily they can have their contacts fused closed, I would immediately replace them with a higher quality circuit protection device.
One good point is that Airstreams are wired more securely than the SOB trailer that had the incident, but it would still bother me..........A LOT!!!!
__________________
lewster
Solar Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
Victron Solar Components and Inverters, Zamp Solar Panels, LiFeBlue and Battle Born Lithium Batteries, Lifeline AGM Batteries
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02-17-2011, 09:34 PM
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#17
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Rivet Master
2005 25' Safari
Trabuco Canyon
, California
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 866
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Do you think a big 100 or 150 amp fuse right at the battery would be a good idea?
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02-17-2011, 11:37 PM
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#18
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Moderator
1968 17' Caravel
Battle Ground
, Washington
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlander63
I've seen aluminum wiring on a '68 Overlander, so it looks like it was at least part of 2 years.
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It's been a long time (2006-ish) since I did my electrical, but I'm pretty sure it was aluminum.
__________________
Stephanie
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02-18-2011, 12:11 AM
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#19
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Rivet Master
1978 31' Excella 500
Genoa
, Nevada
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,554
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[QUOTE=overlander63;953224] how many of us with that 70's era Airstream have the umbilical receptacle in the front of the trailer, behind the LP tanks? How many of them are the original, kind of grey-ish, plastic-y looking ones? They're magnesium. That's right.
I set a trailer on fire by the simple act of cutting off the rusted-on mounting bolts with a cutoff wheel. The wheel made the magnesium hot enough it ignited. I got a nice, red flame from it.
Umm, 70's, old gray plastiky umbilical end that likes to come loose...is Magnesium, the matchless hunting fire starter? Thanks Overlander for the heads up!!! Okay, what's a good replacement? This will be also be a good time to thoroughly examine the whole umbilical.
__________________
I admit to being powerless over housecleaning and social niceities
Airforums 22655 and now, WBCCI 22655
NevadaGeo
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02-18-2011, 04:24 PM
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#20
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Retired.
Currently Looking...
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, At Large
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,276
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For those interested, here is a picture of the "flammable" connector:
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