Replacing electrical box

[cheetah1]

We just started working on our "new" 1968 Airstream and started by pulling out the entire rear bathroom setup to replace the floor. I found the electrical breaker box behind the cabinets on the rear wall. My instinct is telling me to take this opportunity to replace the old electrical breaker box while everything is wide open. I do NOT plan on rewiring the Airstream as it does not need it - although I might add a line going to the front end. I could also take the opportunity to upgrade the Converter at this time.

Research landed me on the Progressive Dynamics Inteli-Power 4045 - 45 Amp Converter AND AC/DC Distribution Panel Combination. It's an all-in-one system that seems to have great reviews. I searched the Forum and could not find a thread on it. Has anyone used this Panel - or know of someone that has - in an Airstream - and be able to give some advice as to if I'm on the right track considering this panel?

Thanks in advance for your advice!

[lewster]

Originally Posted by cheetah1

We just started working on our "new" 1968 Airstream and started by pulling out the entire rear bathroom setup to replace the floor. I found the electrical breaker box behind the cabinets on the rear wall. My instinct is telling me to take this opportunity to replace the old electrical breaker box while everything is wide open. I do NOT plan on rewiring the Airstream as it does not need it - although I might add a line going to the front end. I could also take the opportunity to upgrade the Converter at this time.

Research landed me on the Progressive Dynamics Inteli-Power 4045 - 45 Amp Converter AND AC/DC Distribution Panel Combination. It's an all-in-one system that seems to have great reviews. I searched the Forum and could not find a thread on it. Has anyone used this Panel - or know of someone that has - in an Airstream - and be able to give some advice as to if I'm on the right track considering this panel?

Thanks in advance for your advice!

That would be the 'Mighty Mini' AC/DC power center with an integrated 45 amp Progressive Dynamics 3-stage converter/charger. I have used several in smaller installation and they work very well.

Good choice. You're on the right track!

Thanks in advance for your advice![/QUOTE]

[AWCHIEF]

Some good reading,

Airstream Forums - Search Results

[HowieE]

Progressive is the way to go.

As for the breaker box. If there is a extra space in the current box for your additional line I would just replace the breakers themselves. There is little that can go wrong with the box. Breakers can age and become weak. You may want to install a GFI on the one supplying the bathroom. That may require rewiring the bathroom as a GFI needs a ground wire that may not be in the older units.

[cheetah1]

Originally Posted by AWCHIEF

Some good reading,

Airstream Forums - Search Results

Michael, Thank you for this link. I don't know what I was doing that I couldn't find these on my own, but I'm just starting to learn on how to use this Forum!

[Silverflames]

A new box and breakers are pretty cheap. If your box is like my 69 it's pretty small and does not have room to expand or add in additional breakers. Also as time goes on, it might get harder to find replacement breakers for a 40+ year panel box.

You can buy a new box and breakers at any of the big box hardware stores. I think it's worth the effort and money. I'll take a pic of my new panel and post it.

[Silverflames]

Here is the pic. Please excuse my penmanship.

[HiJoeSilver]

Keep in mind that if you use the combined ac/dc distribution panel you need to get all the ac/dc line terminations to the same place. On my '79 the dc panel was in front below the window, the ac breaker box was all the way in the rear. I'm keeping them in about the same place, it would have been unfeasible(without a ridiculous amount of work) to reroute all the 12v dc line ends to be near the 120v breaker box and don't want the breaker box in the front of the trailer, just not a good spot for something that size. I got a 100A breaker box from home depot, it was relatively cheap and had 8 breaker slots vs the original box with only 4 breaker slots, one being taken up by the main input breaker. I've rewired all the 120v, originally the trailer was for '79 use, not a lot of portable electrical devices, so not a lot of outlets. To get outlets in all the places I wanted running one long line (like original) would not have worked, need to keep in mind wire run lengths and voltage drop in them. The way the lines run in the AS along the roof then down and back up again the lengths add up quickly. With the extra breaker slots I was able to break the trailer up into functional areas and run dedicated lines for the air conditioner, water heater, and 12 volt converter. I broke up the areas into front living street side, front living curb side, dinette area, kitchen area, and bathroom area. For the living area runs I'm installing AFCI breakers, they serve the same function as GFCI but will also detect any arcing/sparking in the wiring, (ie wire getting worn through and shorted) for peace of mind against fires, they cost but it was worth it to me. The 36 yo wire didn't show any wear though, and was very careful about protecting the wiring in potential rubbing areas with things like rubber grommets, wrapping, double wrapping, friction tape, split loom plastic, etc. AFCI's don't work well for feeding air conditioners, so that doesn't get one.
I used 14 gauge romex for everything but the air conditioner, 12v converter(though 14ga would have been fine), and hot water heater.
Main line to the breaker box will obviously be 10 gauge or lower, probably 10 ga JOOW cord.

[cheetah1]

Whoa! I did not think of that (being really new to this whole thing!) I am not sure where the DC panel is in my Airstream. I am going to do some searching tonight - but - does anyone have an idea as to where the DC panel is in a 1968 Airstream Sovereign that has the washroom in the back end of the trailer with the twin bed setup? Looks like I will need to find that out before seriously considering this panel!

From reading your post, it also sounds like you may have been able to rewire as your walls were down and the wiring was exposed. If so, I will not have that luxury - even though I like how you divided the circuits up. Any new circuits I run will probably need to be run as surface wire along the base.

Anyone have an idea where that DC panel may be?

Thank you!

[Silverflames]

On my 69 ambassador it's mounted in the rear hatch, it is separate from the inverter.

[garry]

One thing to bear in mind when installing a new load center.

DO NOT tie the ground and neutral wires together on the same bus like you do in a house. They need to stay separate.

I suspect the 12V is serviced from the outside in a compartment towards the rear.

[Silverflames]

Garry is right, it's more like wiring an extension cord.

[cheetah1]

Thank you. I will not be able to access the Airstream until tomorrow to check this out. However, as I have removed everything down to the walls in that rear washroom area, I know I did not see a a separate fuse block in the back washroom area. A wiring diagram I have for the 68 Sovereign does show that it is supposed to be there close to the 120 volt panel, but who knows what was "realigned" over the years. We did have a new inverter put in last year to replace the old inverter that was there.

I know I sound totally lost (and I am at this point), but if the fuse block is not where the diagram shows it should be (back by the 120v panel) - is it possible that at some time it was moved or is a part of the converter? If so, what is it that I need to look for to see if it is with the inverter. (And - you are absolutely correct if you're thinking I don't have a clue when it comes to electrical wiring!)

My main goal at this point is to determine if the DC fuse block does exist in that back area with the 120V panel so that it makes sense for me to order this Progressive Dynamics Inteli-Power 4045 - 45 Amp Converter AND AC/DC Distribution Panel Combination

I have attached pictures of the current setup in our Airstream with the inverter that was installed last year by an Airstream dealer.

If the DC panel is not part of this picture, what should I be looking for and where?

Thank you again for all of your patience and advice!

[ALUMINUMINUM]

Wiring can be fun... You'll get a lot of good differing advice, and in the end, you'll have it all figured out your own special way.



I would toss the central control. You can lose twenty pounds. It is a bunch of obsolete frivolous gadgetry and nonsense.



If it is an object of historical beauty to you, then neglect the following...



It is a heavy metal box containing:
a cigarette lighter,
300 ohm flat television wire,
A 12V port that does not conform to today’s connectors,
A horizontal analog volt meter and ammeter which cannot indicate power with the accuracy needed to monitor your electrical system,
An electrical device and warning light to prevent your trailer from killing your TV battery,
12V circuit breakers instead of fuses,
A 47 year old tank level monitor that may have never worked with any accuracy.
A clock with replaceable C cell
A 120V outlet,

A graphic of Airstream's World View that requires Sarah Palin to explain the land mass indicated at the North Pole,
A light to illuminate itself,
The Water pump on switch is possibly the only useful info,
If it still has a pretty face, you might get a hundred bucks for it on eBay.


The good news is that your new “Del Centro” panel can can be fitted to replace it, as most all the wiring is fed to this location.

You can easily fish solar wires to your roof through your refrigerator chimney.
You can add modern switches, monitors, and digital gauges to this area.


Consider moving an AGM battery to the street-side wheel well area, closer and inline with your new converter/ breaker/fuse panel. Be sure that your new converter choice is exactly mated to your AGM battery.


Tossing the univolt, the original fuse box, and moving the battery will take a hundred pounds off your tail.


1968 has aluminum wiring. There are special purple alcu connectors that you can use to safely connect and run wiring in conduit from your old 120V box along behind the bathtub through closet back, under bed, to the new “Del Centro” above refrigerator..


Run a shore power cable along the street-side in 3/4” flexible aluminum conduit. I used a double pole single throw 30A switch for a main disconnect, and cut into the converter wiring with another switch to isolate the converter when needed.


From this location it will be easy to add another circuit/s to the front of trailer.



I used NASCAR 12V switches to isolate house battery and TV battery charge line.



I have reconfigured everything that I mention to my 1968 GT and it functions very nicely.


Anyway, just some Ideas that I would explore, if you dare...



Enjoy your restoration journey,

[HiJoeSilver]

Can't tell where the 2 wires from the converter going aft lead to but it may be the dc distribution panel, it's somewhere in the rear in that area from drawings. 2 wires going into wall may also go to the dc distribution. One set of those wires(from the converter) should go to the battery other set to the dc "panel"(may just look like a jumble of wires a few fuses and some bus(metal) bars connecting wires. Not sure about how they made changes over the years.
Post 33 on this thread http://www.airforums.com/forums/f192...a-78906-3.html discusses similar on a '67. Diagrams in post 35 of same have some diagrams that may help.

Since you're not going to remove panels and rewire more circuits, I'd just take out the box that's there clean it up really good and see if you can find some replacement breakers. There are different types of breakers for different panel connections. Think my old ones were GE type. Take one to an electrical supply shop and they should be able to tell you what breakers you need, other big box may not have the in depth expertise to identify them that old. They may be obsolete, maybe not. If they are they ought to be able to get you a small box to replace it and some new breakers.

[cheetah1]

Thank you for your insight! The two items in this renovation we really wanted to keep were the Control Panel and the rectangular storage area/ electronics center above the front gaucho. Everything else was up for grabs based on how we wanted to live in this Airstream for 5 months out of the year (read as snowbirds!)

[HiJoeSilver]

Hadn't thought of the aluminum wires. If they are you have to be careful because any new breakers will probably be only suitable for copper. As mentioned you'll need something to safely transition from the aluminum wire to copper. Standard wire nuts won't do it. The purple wire nuts were special for the aluminum to copper connections. They were UL listed for a while but UL pulled it because they had problems overheating down the road. AlumiConn Aluminum to Copper Electrical Connector has newer versions of the connectors in place of the purple nuts, I've used them for wiring changes in my brothers house, they work well. They have 2 and 3 connection versions, you should only need the 2 connection versions to transition from the AL to CU pig tails to connect to newer electrical connections.
The issue with aluminum is that the aluminum oxide "rust" that forms on the surface of aluminum wires, like the surface of the airstream skin is less conductive, as it builds up, increased resistance, this generates heat and can cause fires. The copper oxide "rust" that forms on the surface of copper wire is still conductive, therefore no issues.

[cheetah1]

Thank you for this information!

[HiJoeSilver]

If you replace any 120 v outlets with new ones they need to be compatible with aluminum wiring. Look for CO/ALR outlets online. You won't find them in the big box stores, though they may have them online. You may find some that say CU/AL clad, this means aluminum clad with copper, which is not the same as your bare aluminum wire. Any new equipment that you're attaching to the aluminum wire, ie new air conditioner, should have the alumicon connectors to transition from the AL to copper pig tails to the new equipment. Installing aluminum into connectors not designed for AL but for copper only can/will cause corrosion at the connection leading to heat, leading to fires.

[ALUMINUMINUM]

Many owners of 1968 Airstreams camp in constant fear of incineration.


I researched aluminum wiring quite a bit, there are a few ways to work around it. Here in Michigan, both Lowes and Home Depot currently sell the purple wire nuts, but there are indeed, more approved for housing methods. My heavy load circuits are all 12G copper, but I did have to nut together a couple of Aluminum wires. I used an anti oxidant grease as well. I'm already living on borrowed time, fingers crossed, death wish...


Airstream just went cheap in 1968 and used aluminum for both 120V AC and 12V DC. It wasn't “bullets for Vietnam”, Copper wire was available, just cost more. It was the sinking ship/Beatrice buy-out on the horizon year.

On my '68, I inspected all the connections at outlets and found them all to be in good condition with no indication of overheat. All the outlet screws were extremely secure and tight. What I couldn't find was any indication of outlets being special to aluminum wires. They all appear to be plain old 15A household outlets with a brass colored hot side and silver colored neutral side. No special markings anywhere. The breakers didn't appear special either.


It wouldn't make sense that Airstream would save on aluminum wire and then spend additional monies on the correspondingly correct outlets and connectors and breakers. Who knows if any 1968 Airstream burned from aluminum wire??


It does make sense that Airstream would go cheap with aluminum wire, and not use breakers and outlets rated for aluminum.


the image is the 47 year-old original, never changed, Airstream factory installation.




I don't know how a Progressive Dynamics Inteli-Power 4045 - 45 Amp Converter AND AC/DC Distribution Panel Combination can be easily wired with an original 1968 central Control... it wouldn't be impossible, just questionable.