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05-31-2018, 09:45 AM
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#1
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2 Rivet Member
1976 Argosy 24
Monroe
, Michigan
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 62
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Replace or not replace wires?
We have our 1976 Argosy 24' apart with wall panels out. The electric seemed to be in good working order. We are updating a few things like lights.
Does anyone see a reason to replace the original wires?
Also, any tips?
Thanks,
__________________
Katty
~1978 Argosy 27'
~1976 Argosy 24'
~1975 Trillium 13'
...to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ
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05-31-2018, 09:59 AM
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#2
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Rivet Master
1984 27' Airstream 270
Scotia
, New York
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,082
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It is a lot cheaper to do it now, than later.
Also, new outlets, maybe upgrade your antenna wire to coax and any speaker wires for surround sound.
If I the walls out in my MH, I would also redo the solar wires and maybe put HDMI and network from end to end. But I have a tendency to overdo things
__________________
Do not take life too seriously.
You will never get out of it alive.
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05-31-2018, 07:21 PM
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#3
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Rivet Master
2007 22' International CCD
Corona
, California
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,180
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Replace or not replace wires?
WayneG, you are on the very brink of joining the “Overkill Engineering” group here on the forums...which, IMHO, is not necessarily a bad thing...
Katty, you might as well do it “right” before you insulate and cover the walls again...it’s much easier to put in better wiring, features such as internet wiring, and make sure all the internal and external electrical stuff is in tip-top shape now...
__________________
Rich, KE4GNK/AE, Overkill Engineering Dept.
'The Silver HamShack' ('07 International 22FB CCD 75th Anniversary)
Multiple Yaesu Ham Radios inside and many antennae sprouting from roof, ProPride hitch, Prodigy P2 controller.
2012 shortbed CrewMax 4x4 Toyota Tacoma TV with more antennae on it.
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05-31-2018, 07:45 PM
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#4
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
Elk Rapids
, Michigan
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 173
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I agree with the coax antenna wire and any additions you need but 40 year old copper should be fine unless you have a problem with corrosion or insulation breaking down. I see no good reason to replace working electrical circuits but if you do please make sure you follow current standards to avoid creating a dangerous situation.
RVIA
https://www.rvia.org/standards-regul...ansi-standards
or
ABYC
https://abycinc.org/page/standards?
Cheers,
John
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06-01-2018, 09:42 AM
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#5
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4 Rivet Member
1967 17' Caravel
Oakland
, California
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 299
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All the wiring in our 67 Caravel was aluminum. When we did the shell off we replaced every wire with marine copper (Anchor) along with all new electrical panels along with shrink wrap connectors (also Anchor) which are not cheap but now it's finished I no longer worry about bumping along dirt roads and thinking something is going to break loose.
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06-01-2018, 09:45 AM
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#6
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Rivet Master
2004 30' Classic
Johnson City
, Texas
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 591
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With 40 year old AC wiring, recommend you consider the following:
First - shore power 120 VAC 30Amps - The standard for all RV AC electrical wiring is NFPA 70, National Electrical Code. All your work should comply with the 2017 version. Also consider some of the additional recommendations in ABYC E11 2015 edition. This assumes you want 30A rather than 50A for unit.
1. Are all components in your shore power system UL-listed and marked as such?
2. Do you have a good continuous ground wire from the load center connected to the chassis?
3. Are the neutral and ground conductors still isolated?
4. Is any of the wire insulation brittle or discolored, from age and overheating?
5. Does your load center have space for at least 5 circuit breakers?
6. Are all your receptacles 3-prong and still tightly grip a plug?
7. Are all the wire nuts tight? Recommend replacing all twist-on wire nuts with crimp connectors - see below.
8. Do you have 10 AWG wiring for incoming service and for air conditioning unit?
9. Are all your other branch circuits AC 3-wire 12 AWG rated at 105 degrees C?
10. Do you have enough outlets - say for TV?
11. Do you have ground fault circuit interruptors (GFCI) for the bath, kitchen, and outside circuits?
12. Are your exterior outlets weather resistant? (Marked WR)
13. Do you need AC power at a replacement refrigerator?
14. Do you want to install an inverter with dedicated outlets or a transfer switch?
In any case, recommend
- replacing the plug and cable connecting the trailer to shore power. I can recommend installing a SmartPlug on your trailer.
- installing arc-fault, ground-fault (AFCI/GFCI) breakers on all circuits. This is the NEC standard for all dwelling units, and for life-safety reasons, it is a good idea to do the same in your RV dwelling unit.
If you do replace the wiring, strongly recommend using Ancor Triplex Cable, 12/3 AWG (3 x 3mm²), Part # 131310. Also recommend using crimp-connectors rather than wire nuts - following ABYC E11 11.14.3.6 "Twist on connectors, i.e., wire nuts, shall not be used." I used Ideal 2006S or 2011S Crimp Connectors with matching cap insulators.
Second - DC power - the standard is ANSI/RVIA LV 2018. It's new, and recommend you get a copy for review.
1. Is all your wiring rated at 105C?
2. How good is the grounding chassis connection for the negative side of the battery?
3. Do you plan to change batteries, such as to Lithium?
4. Do you want to install a battery monitoring system?
5. Do you have a dedicated DC circuit for a CO and propane detector?
6. Need any new DC power outlets - such as for a TV, new radio, DVD/Blueray player, backup camera, etc.?
7. Are all connectors tight and still weather protected?
8. If using solar, is the entire solar system compliant with NEC Article 690? For example, do you have fuses in each panel string? Is the wiring sized correctly? Do you have a solar disconnect switch? Do you have solar circuit DC GFPD?
In any case, recommend replacing all your 40-year old DC circuit breakers. Pay particular attention to the Type 2 breakers - such as for your brake circuit.
If in any doubt, now is the time to replace.
73/gus
__________________
Gus - KR4K : Mary - K5MCL
2004 30ft. Classic
2017 Infiniti QX80 Limited
ProPride 3P/Prodigy P3
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06-01-2018, 10:10 AM
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#7
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,684
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Hi
Before you go crazy with a bunch of "rules" consider that 99.?% of all RV's coming out of the factory "violate" at leas one of the magic rules. That's not to say they are a bad idea, only that if you bought a brand new trailer, it would not comply with all of those rules.
What you put in and where you put it is very much a personal thing. Running CAT-5 cables for ethernet is something I would do. For most people it would not be on the list. DC wiring for USB plugs is something I would do, again maybe not what everybody would put in. I would forget about any 120 V lighting. It just doesn't make sense these days. Set the whole thing up for 12V. When running DC wiring consider the "catch on fire" ratings first and size / fuse wire accordingly. Next consider voltage drop and maybe bump some of the main stuff up a bit.
Whatever you will do for batteries, figure that out early. There is a lot of cabling that is associated with them. Running that with the walls open is *much* easier ....
Bob
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06-01-2018, 10:17 AM
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#8
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Stay CazuaL
2018 25' Flying Cloud
2014 19' Flying Cloud
Reseda
, California
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneG
It is a lot cheaper to do it now, than later.
Also, new outlets, maybe upgrade your antenna wire to coax and any speaker wires for surround sound.
If I the walls out in my MH, I would also redo the solar wires and maybe put HDMI and network from end to end. But I have a tendency to overdo things
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I concur.
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06-01-2018, 10:21 AM
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#9
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Rivet Master
2017 26' Flying Cloud
Tampa
, Florida
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 7,638
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IMO, since the walls are off, I'd replace the wiring with marine grade wire, it's tinned and stranded, intended for low corrosion and lots of vibration.
Also, coax wherever you need it, and maybe even some cat-5.
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06-01-2018, 11:08 AM
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#10
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4 Rivet Member
1976 31' Excella 500
Chappell Hill
, Texas
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 485
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Put an empty sleeve suitable to pull wire through from the breaker box over to the other side of the trailer so you can add stuff later. Same for 12V new stuff later. You always forget something or new things are invented.
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06-01-2018, 11:33 AM
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#11
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3 Rivet Member
1985 31' Excella
st. Paul
, mn
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 239
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It's called planing , what do you want in a RV , once you set down the spec.s , then just follow electrical codes .
If you not customizing your RV and no damage / ware , then leave wire as is [ unless its got the aluminum ] .
You can always change the outlets as they ware - unless your plan says you want something special - as an example you might want to have a 20 amp outlet - so that if your roof AC dies , you could put in a normal window AC unit till you repair / replace the roof air .
__________________
85 Excella , 31' , electric brakes , R. twin [ would like it to be a single ] , future upgrades , composting toilet [ replace black water tank with a 2nd fresh ] , solar power , instant hot water heater .
Tow 94 Dodge Ram , 4x4 , Cummins , AT .
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06-01-2018, 12:40 PM
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#12
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2 Rivet Member
2018 30' Classic
Bothell
, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gklott
With 40 year old AC wiring, recommend you consider the following:
First - shore power 120 VAC 30Amps - The standard for all RV AC electrical wiring is NFPA 70, National Electrical Code. All your work should comply with the 2017 version. Also consider some of the additional recommendations in ABYC E11 2015 edition. This assumes you want 30A rather than 50A for unit.
1. Are all components in your shore power system UL-listed and marked as such?
2. Do you have a good continuous ground wire from the load center connected to the chassis?
3. Are the neutral and ground conductors still isolated?
4. Is any of the wire insulation brittle or discolored, from age and overheating?
5. Does your load center have space for at least 5 circuit breakers?
6. Are all your receptacles 3-prong and still tightly grip a plug?
7. Are all the wire nuts tight? Recommend replacing all twist-on wire nuts with crimp connectors - see below.
8. Do you have 10 AWG wiring for incoming service and for air conditioning unit?
9. Are all your other branch circuits AC 3-wire 12 AWG rated at 105 degrees C?
10. Do you have enough outlets - say for TV?
11. Do you have ground fault circuit interruptors (GFCI) for the bath, kitchen, and outside circuits?
12. Are your exterior outlets weather resistant? (Marked WR)
13. Do you need AC power at a replacement refrigerator?
14. Do you want to install an inverter with dedicated outlets or a transfer switch?
In any case, recommend
- replacing the plug and cable connecting the trailer to shore power. I can recommend installing a SmartPlug on your trailer.
- installing arc-fault, ground-fault (AFCI/GFCI) breakers on all circuits. This is the NEC standard for all dwelling units, and for life-safety reasons, it is a good idea to do the same in your RV dwelling unit.
If you do replace the wiring, strongly recommend using Ancor Triplex Cable, 12/3 AWG (3 x 3mm²), Part # 131310. Also recommend using crimp-connectors rather than wire nuts - following ABYC E11 11.14.3.6 "Twist on connectors, i.e., wire nuts, shall not be used." I used Ideal 2006S or 2011S Crimp Connectors with matching cap insulators.
Second - DC power - the standard is ANSI/RVIA LV 2018. It's new, and recommend you get a copy for review.
1. Is all your wiring rated at 105C?
2. How good is the grounding chassis connection for the negative side of the battery?
3. Do you plan to change batteries, such as to Lithium?
4. Do you want to install a battery monitoring system?
5. Do you have a dedicated DC circuit for a CO and propane detector?
6. Need any new DC power outlets - such as for a TV, new radio, DVD/Blueray player, backup camera, etc.?
7. Are all connectors tight and still weather protected?
8. If using solar, is the entire solar system compliant with NEC Article 690? For example, do you have fuses in each panel string? Is the wiring sized correctly? Do you have a solar disconnect switch? Do you have solar circuit DC GFPD?
In any case, recommend replacing all your 40-year old DC circuit breakers. Pay particular attention to the Type 2 breakers - such as for your brake circuit.
If in any doubt, now is the time to replace.
73/gus
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I've been in the marine industry for 40+ years and would have given anything to have my AS AC/DC electrical systems meet the above list. Gus, thanks for putting this all down. Here is a chance to make the ?? AS quality right.
__________________
Jim and Sharon Doub
2018 Classic 30
K6TKU
Bothell, WA
WBCCI 03495
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06-01-2018, 12:45 PM
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#13
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Rivet Master
1981 31' Excella II
New Market
, Alabama
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,145
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If the wire is copper and it is in good shape then leave it. Fix what needs fixing and add stuff you want to have. Do you want CAT5 wire, do you want to replace antenna wire with cable. Do you want phone cables? You can spend a lot of time trying to reinvent the wheel.
Perry
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06-01-2018, 01:03 PM
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#14
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Rivet Master
1984 27' Airstream 270
Scotia
, New York
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,082
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One reason to change the wires, is that the outlets (at least as I recall in my 77 MH) are installed in a crimp on fashion, where the wires are pushed into metal fingers that cut through the insulation to make contact with the outlet.
If there are chains of outlets, the wire at the outlets may not have enough length to attach them to a normal replacement outlet.
Whatever you do, at least evaluate the AC outlets and the wires they are powered by, to be sure they will endure another 30 years of service.
__________________
Do not take life too seriously.
You will never get out of it alive.
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06-01-2018, 05:51 PM
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#15
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3 Rivet Member
2017 25' International
Framingham
, Massachusetts
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gklott
With 40 year old AC wiring, recommend you consider the following:
First - shore power 120 VAC 30Amps - The standard for all RV AC electrical wiring is NFPA 70, National Electrical Code. All your work should comply with the 2017 version. Also consider some of the additional recommendations in ABYC E11 2015 edition. This assumes you want 30A rather than 50A for unit.
1. Are all components in your shore power system UL-listed and marked as such?
2. Do you have a good continuous ground wire from the load center connected to the chassis?
3. Are the neutral and ground conductors still isolated?
4. Is any of the wire insulation brittle or discolored, from age and overheating?
5. Does your load center have space for at least 5 circuit breakers?
6. Are all your receptacles 3-prong and still tightly grip a plug?
7. Are all the wire nuts tight? Recommend replacing all twist-on wire nuts with crimp connectors - see below.
8. Do you have 10 AWG wiring for incoming service and for air conditioning unit?
9. Are all your other branch circuits AC 3-wire 12 AWG rated at 105 degrees C?
10. Do you have enough outlets - say for TV?
11. Do you have ground fault circuit interruptors (GFCI) for the bath, kitchen, and outside circuits?
12. Are your exterior outlets weather resistant? (Marked WR)
13. Do you need AC power at a replacement refrigerator?
14. Do you want to install an inverter with dedicated outlets or a transfer switch?
In any case, recommend
- replacing the plug and cable connecting the trailer to shore power. I can recommend installing a SmartPlug on your trailer.
- installing arc-fault, ground-fault (AFCI/GFCI) breakers on all circuits. This is the NEC standard for all dwelling units, and for life-safety reasons, it is a good idea to do the same in your RV dwelling unit.
If you do replace the wiring, strongly recommend using Ancor Triplex Cable, 12/3 AWG (3 x 3mm²), Part # 131310. Also recommend using crimp-connectors rather than wire nuts - following ABYC E11 11.14.3.6 "Twist on connectors, i.e., wire nuts, shall not be used." I used Ideal 2006S or 2011S Crimp Connectors with matching cap insulators.
Second - DC power - the standard is ANSI/RVIA LV 2018. It's new, and recommend you get a copy for review.
1. Is all your wiring rated at 105C?
2. How good is the grounding chassis connection for the negative side of the battery?
3. Do you plan to change batteries, such as to Lithium?
4. Do you want to install a battery monitoring system?
5. Do you have a dedicated DC circuit for a CO and propane detector?
6. Need any new DC power outlets - such as for a TV, new radio, DVD/Blueray player, backup camera, etc.?
7. Are all connectors tight and still weather protected?
8. If using solar, is the entire solar system compliant with NEC Article 690? For example, do you have fuses in each panel string? Is the wiring sized correctly? Do you have a solar disconnect switch? Do you have solar circuit DC GFPD?
In any case, recommend replacing all your 40-year old DC circuit breakers. Pay particular attention to the Type 2 breakers - such as for your brake circuit.
If in any doubt, now is the time to replace.
73/gus
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Great advice!
The Ethernet cable advice not so much. It’s very late 1990’s advice. If you REALLY want to update, think enabling wireless connectivity for all electronics as well as for lights etc.
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06-02-2018, 06:02 AM
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#16
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quietguy
Great advice!
The Ethernet cable advice not so much. It’s very late 1990’s advice. If you REALLY want to update, think enabling wireless connectivity for all electronics as well as for lights etc.
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Hi
WiFi can get very crowed very quickly. Wire what you can ....
Bob
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06-02-2018, 06:48 AM
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#17
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Rivet Master
2004 30' Classic
Johnson City
, Texas
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob
Before you go crazy with a bunch of "rules" consider that 99.?% of all RV's coming out of the factory "violate" at leas one of the magic rules. That's not to say they are a bad idea, only that if you bought a brand new trailer, it would not comply with all of those rules.
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Standards are not rules. These standards are collections of the best consensus engineering practice that everyone can consult.
From NFPA 1192, 'Standard on Recreational Vehicles':
"1.2 Purpose. The purpose of this standard shall be to provide the minimum criteria for recreational vehicles that are considered necessary to provide protection from loss of life from fire and explosion."
Also,
"1.3.2 This standard shall not be applied as a stand-alone design specification or instruction manual."
While they are primarily intended for new RVs, seems that the 'minimum criteria' would be something we all should try to follow whenever we upgrade or modify our AS.
rmkrum can use these to help guide their decisions so they can benefit from the "consensus".
73/gus
__________________
Gus - KR4K : Mary - K5MCL
2004 30ft. Classic
2017 Infiniti QX80 Limited
ProPride 3P/Prodigy P3
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06-02-2018, 11:20 AM
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#18
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Rivet Master
1972 25' Tradewind
1976 31' Excella 500
1974 31' Excella 500
1975 24' Argosy 24
Denver
, Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,106
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As you can see there will be lots of different opinions and advice. ;-)
If you are replacing wire, do make sure its stranded (not solid). Marine grade is preferred, and you want something that will hold up to heat.
For those recommending cat5, I would love to hear some reasons (not being snarky, I really want to know). In a house, I really love having computers and equipment hardwired (for the time being, its still faster and more stable), but in something the size of an Airstream, I wonder if its worth the extra effort of running cat5 (or cat6).
Size of the wire is another thing to consider. The thicker the wire, usually the better. Wire can get expensive, so when I see 10 gauge stranded on clearance at a big box store, I *always* buy it.
While your walls are open, I definitely recommend changing all the lighting to 12v. You can usually use the same wires that were used for 120v (if its thick enough for the length of the run), just change the source to a 12v circuit. Many people don't realize you can buy a "regular" (shaped) bulb that is 12v LED, so you can leave your fixtures, just change the circuit and bulb.
It's good to have 120v outlets in the kitchen and vanity areas for household appliances, but switching to or adding more 12v outlets everywhere else is a good idea for modern things like computers, fans, televisions, chargers, etc.
While the walls are open, you should also consider running conduit (basically just a tube) in case you want to add more wires in the future. Getting existing wires into conduit is also a good idea if you have the time, space, and gumption, as it will protect the wires and make changing them easier (you can pull wire through conduit much easier than through a wall with millions of things to get snagged on).
Good luck, and be safe!
__________________
25' 1972 Airstream Trade Wind Land Yacht (heavily customized)
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD (diesel)
BeahmStream.com
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06-03-2018, 07:32 AM
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#19
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gklott
Standards are not rules. These standards are collections of the best consensus engineering practice that everyone can consult.
From NFPA 1192, 'Standard on Recreational Vehicles':
"1.2 Purpose. The purpose of this standard shall be to provide the minimum criteria for recreational vehicles that are considered necessary to provide protection from loss of life from fire and explosion."
Also,
"1.3.2 This standard shall not be applied as a stand-alone design specification or instruction manual."
While they are primarily intended for new RVs, seems that the 'minimum criteria' would be something we all should try to follow whenever we upgrade or modify our AS.
rmkrum can use these to help guide their decisions so they can benefit from the "consensus".
73/gus
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Hi
When the "standards" being quoted are *not* followed by the industry that makes the product .... that *is* a point that should very much be mentioned. Not mentioning it implies something that simply is not true.
Bob
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06-13-2018, 09:49 AM
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#20
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Rivet Master
2004 30' Classic
Johnson City
, Texas
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob
When the "standards" being quoted are *not* followed by the industry that makes the product .... that *is* a point that should very much be mentioned. Not mentioning it implies something that simply is not true.
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I have a certification label on my AS stating that 2004 Classic was manufactured in compliance with these standards in effect on the date of manufacture.
Are you staying that AS does not comply with NFPA 1192, NFPA 70, ANSI/RVIA LV, etc? Is that what you think "should very much be mentioned"? If so, that's a serious legal claim.
I recommended that when we make AS modifications, we follow the current RV industry standards. I cannot believe that anyone would recommend otherwise. As I said before, rmkrum can use these to help guide their decisions so they can benefit from the "consensus".
73/gus
__________________
Gus - KR4K : Mary - K5MCL
2004 30ft. Classic
2017 Infiniti QX80 Limited
ProPride 3P/Prodigy P3
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