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Old 06-01-2018, 05:51 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gklott View Post
With 40 year old AC wiring, recommend you consider the following:

First - shore power 120 VAC 30Amps - The standard for all RV AC electrical wiring is NFPA 70, National Electrical Code. All your work should comply with the 2017 version. Also consider some of the additional recommendations in ABYC E11 2015 edition. This assumes you want 30A rather than 50A for unit.

1. Are all components in your shore power system UL-listed and marked as such?
2. Do you have a good continuous ground wire from the load center connected to the chassis?
3. Are the neutral and ground conductors still isolated?
4. Is any of the wire insulation brittle or discolored, from age and overheating?
5. Does your load center have space for at least 5 circuit breakers?
6. Are all your receptacles 3-prong and still tightly grip a plug?
7. Are all the wire nuts tight? Recommend replacing all twist-on wire nuts with crimp connectors - see below.
8. Do you have 10 AWG wiring for incoming service and for air conditioning unit?
9. Are all your other branch circuits AC 3-wire 12 AWG rated at 105 degrees C?
10. Do you have enough outlets - say for TV?
11. Do you have ground fault circuit interruptors (GFCI) for the bath, kitchen, and outside circuits?
12. Are your exterior outlets weather resistant? (Marked WR)
13. Do you need AC power at a replacement refrigerator?
14. Do you want to install an inverter with dedicated outlets or a transfer switch?

In any case, recommend
- replacing the plug and cable connecting the trailer to shore power. I can recommend installing a SmartPlug on your trailer.
- installing arc-fault, ground-fault (AFCI/GFCI) breakers on all circuits. This is the NEC standard for all dwelling units, and for life-safety reasons, it is a good idea to do the same in your RV dwelling unit.

If you do replace the wiring, strongly recommend using Ancor Triplex Cable, 12/3 AWG (3 x 3mm≤), Part # 131310. Also recommend using crimp-connectors rather than wire nuts - following ABYC E11 11.14.3.6 "Twist on connectors, i.e., wire nuts, shall not be used." I used Ideal 2006S or 2011S Crimp Connectors with matching cap insulators.

Second - DC power - the standard is ANSI/RVIA LV 2018. It's new, and recommend you get a copy for review.
1. Is all your wiring rated at 105C?
2. How good is the grounding chassis connection for the negative side of the battery?
3. Do you plan to change batteries, such as to Lithium?
4. Do you want to install a battery monitoring system?
5. Do you have a dedicated DC circuit for a CO and propane detector?
6. Need any new DC power outlets - such as for a TV, new radio, DVD/Blueray player, backup camera, etc.?
7. Are all connectors tight and still weather protected?
8. If using solar, is the entire solar system compliant with NEC Article 690? For example, do you have fuses in each panel string? Is the wiring sized correctly? Do you have a solar disconnect switch? Do you have solar circuit DC GFPD?

In any case, recommend replacing all your 40-year old DC circuit breakers. Pay particular attention to the Type 2 breakers - such as for your brake circuit.

If in any doubt, now is the time to replace.

73/gus
Great advice!

The Ethernet cable advice not so much. Itís very late 1990ís advice. If you REALLY want to update, think enabling wireless connectivity for all electronics as well as for lights etc.
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Old 06-02-2018, 06:02 AM   #16
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Great advice!

The Ethernet cable advice not so much. Itís very late 1990ís advice. If you REALLY want to update, think enabling wireless connectivity for all electronics as well as for lights etc.
Hi

WiFi can get very crowed very quickly. Wire what you can ....

Bob
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Old 06-02-2018, 06:48 AM   #17
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Johnson City , Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob View Post
Before you go crazy with a bunch of "rules" consider that 99.?% of all RV's coming out of the factory "violate" at leas one of the magic rules. That's not to say they are a bad idea, only that if you bought a brand new trailer, it would not comply with all of those rules.
Standards are not rules. These standards are collections of the best consensus engineering practice that everyone can consult.

From NFPA 1192, 'Standard on Recreational Vehicles':
"1.2 Purpose. The purpose of this standard shall be to provide the minimum criteria for recreational vehicles that are considered necessary to provide protection from loss of life from fire and explosion."
Also,
"1.3.2 This standard shall not be applied as a stand-alone design specification or instruction manual."

While they are primarily intended for new RVs, seems that the 'minimum criteria' would be something we all should try to follow whenever we upgrade or modify our AS.

rmkrum can use these to help guide their decisions so they can benefit from the "consensus".

73/gus
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Old 06-02-2018, 11:20 AM   #18
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As you can see there will be lots of different opinions and advice. ;-)

If you are replacing wire, do make sure its stranded (not solid). Marine grade is preferred, and you want something that will hold up to heat.

For those recommending cat5, I would love to hear some reasons (not being snarky, I really want to know). In a house, I really love having computers and equipment hardwired (for the time being, its still faster and more stable), but in something the size of an Airstream, I wonder if its worth the extra effort of running cat5 (or cat6).

Size of the wire is another thing to consider. The thicker the wire, usually the better. Wire can get expensive, so when I see 10 gauge stranded on clearance at a big box store, I *always* buy it.

While your walls are open, I definitely recommend changing all the lighting to 12v. You can usually use the same wires that were used for 120v (if its thick enough for the length of the run), just change the source to a 12v circuit. Many people don't realize you can buy a "regular" (shaped) bulb that is 12v LED, so you can leave your fixtures, just change the circuit and bulb.

It's good to have 120v outlets in the kitchen and vanity areas for household appliances, but switching to or adding more 12v outlets everywhere else is a good idea for modern things like computers, fans, televisions, chargers, etc.

While the walls are open, you should also consider running conduit (basically just a tube) in case you want to add more wires in the future. Getting existing wires into conduit is also a good idea if you have the time, space, and gumption, as it will protect the wires and make changing them easier (you can pull wire through conduit much easier than through a wall with millions of things to get snagged on).

Good luck, and be safe!
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Old 06-03-2018, 07:32 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gklott View Post
Standards are not rules. These standards are collections of the best consensus engineering practice that everyone can consult.

From NFPA 1192, 'Standard on Recreational Vehicles':
"1.2 Purpose. The purpose of this standard shall be to provide the minimum criteria for recreational vehicles that are considered necessary to provide protection from loss of life from fire and explosion."
Also,
"1.3.2 This standard shall not be applied as a stand-alone design specification or instruction manual."

While they are primarily intended for new RVs, seems that the 'minimum criteria' would be something we all should try to follow whenever we upgrade or modify our AS.

rmkrum can use these to help guide their decisions so they can benefit from the "consensus".

73/gus
Hi

When the "standards" being quoted are *not* followed by the industry that makes the product .... that *is* a point that should very much be mentioned. Not mentioning it implies something that simply is not true.

Bob
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Old 06-13-2018, 09:49 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob View Post
When the "standards" being quoted are *not* followed by the industry that makes the product .... that *is* a point that should very much be mentioned. Not mentioning it implies something that simply is not true.
I have a certification label on my AS stating that 2004 Classic was manufactured in compliance with these standards in effect on the date of manufacture.

Are you staying that AS does not comply with NFPA 1192, NFPA 70, ANSI/RVIA LV, etc? Is that what you think "should very much be mentioned"? If so, that's a serious legal claim.

I recommended that when we make AS modifications, we follow the current RV industry standards. I cannot believe that anyone would recommend otherwise. As I said before, rmkrum can use these to help guide their decisions so they can benefit from the "consensus".

73/gus
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:15 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by gklott View Post
I have a certification label on my AS stating that 2004 Classic was manufactured in compliance with these standards in effect on the date of manufacture.

Are you staying that AS does not comply with NFPA 1192, NFPA 70, ANSI/RVIA LV, etc? Is that what you think "should very much be mentioned"? If so, that's a serious legal claim.

I recommended that when we make AS modifications, we follow the current RV industry standards. I cannot believe that anyone would recommend otherwise. As I said before, rmkrum can use these to help guide their decisions so they can benefit from the "consensus".

73/gus
Hi

If you believe that there is an factory stock externally mounted DC disconnect that is labeled for the first responders to spot ( on any RV )... take a picture of it and post it.

Bob
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Old 06-16-2018, 06:52 AM   #22
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Safety and common sense

I can see that there are varied opinions on this. For myself, facing a very similar set of circumstances as the OP, this debate was educational. While I won't bore anyone with my electrical qualifications, let's just say I know my way around a wire harness.

My general mindset is to over engineer, mostly because I have seen the results of the "just meet" the standards and criteria mindset as well as seeing the other side of this where systems were designed to exceed the environment of use.
From experience, I prefer the exceed criteria.
For me, My RV is an investment. I'm looking at the long game. My RV is 32 years old this month (Mfr date 6/86). I plan to have it for the next 20 years.
Additionally, I want it to be safe and secure. I neither wish to put myself or others in danger. My life is worth the $200 for 200' of the ancor 12/3 wire spec'd in a previous post. I believe your life is equally valuable.
As a rule, NFPA standards are written in blood. For me it's even more personal than that. I have a nephew who is a NY fireman. I would hate to have to explain to him why my TT caught fire or to the Mother/brother/sister/grandfather of one of my guests why little Johnny was electrocuted/burned/suffocated.

I prefer to believe that none of you wish to be in this situation either.



Thank you uncle bob for posting those standards. RVIA has a new member and some of the publications mentioned are now on their way to me. I only wish they came in PDF format.

Warmest regards to all
Hector (Formerly KA2AKR)
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Old 06-17-2018, 08:09 PM   #23
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correction

It was gklott I needed to thank for the standards reference, not uncle bob. I would edit my prior post, but it appears that it is too old to edit
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