Need a Simple Answer

[islandtrader]

I posted some thing similar...however I just want to know a yes or no.You can explain why if you want to.

Do I need a 30 amp breaker in the sub panel along with my other breakers.

This is a 30amp shore power set up.

[uncle_bob]

yes

[drbrick]

+2 with uncle Bob [emoji16]

[markdoane]

I say yes also.

Not gonna quote a technical reason from NEC, but I would suggest that there are too many dog bone adapters out there.

[A W Warn]

yes

[Al and Missy]

Yes, per NFPA70, 551.45 (C).

Incidentally, I thought the answer was no, that a separate main disconnect was acceptable until I ran into the above reference. One could argue that a separate 30A breaker would protect the panel, but the reference, discussing the panelboard, says a main disconnect device and a main overcurrent protection device must be provided. A 30A toggle circuit breaker meets both requirements.

"But wait, there's more...." Typically only a maximum of 5 circuits are allowed. 6 or more require a 120/240 50A service. But if one circuit is dedicated to the converter and the total load is compliant, 6 are permitted on a 30A service.

Al

[J. Morgan]

I used a box with a 30 amp breaker almost as soon as the shore power entered the trailer, it just seemed right to do so.

You DO NOT need a second thirty amp breaker in the sub panel though.

[islandtrader]

Thanks for the info...I think this is the set up I will use...Still working on what to combine with what.

Since I only have 6 duplex outlets...I think I will put the GFIC at the beginning on a 20 amp breaker. From what I read this should be ok. All the rest can be on there own breakers . Comments?

(The drawing is showing charger and outlets combined which is not correct.)

[cazual6]

yes

always need a breaker for every switch leg.

[gklott]

Agree, in the subpanel, per NFPA70, 551.45 (C). You should always turn off the 30A outlet before connecting trailer, and the breaker at the outlet provides this disconnect.

Also, under 2020 NEC 210.8 (A) (3) or (B) (4), you must also use a GFCI breaker for your 30A RV outlet. This is a change in the NEC where they removed GFCI for 15A and 20A circuits only. 2020 NEC requires GFCI for "50 amperes or less".

We have GFCI breakers now on all our RV outlets, 50A and 30A. We have three 30A outlets and one 50A outlet, and all GFCI breakers are working well. You can get the 30A single pole GFCI breakers and 50A double-pole GFCI breaker at Lowes and Home Depot.

73/gus

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by gklott

Agree, in the subpanel, per NFPA70, 551.45 (C). You should always turn off the 30A outlet before connecting trailer, and the breaker at the outlet provides this disconnect.

Also, under 2020 NEC 210.8 (A) (3) or (B) (4), you must also use a GFCI breaker for your 30A RV outlet. This is a change in the NEC where they removed GFCI for 15A and 20A circuits only. 2020 NEC requires GFCI for "50 amperes or less".

We have GFCI breakers now on all our RV outlets, 50A and 30A. We have three 30A outlets and one 50A outlet, and all GFCI breakers are working well. You can get the 30A single pole GFCI breakers and 50A double-pole GFCI breaker at Lowes and Home Depot.

73/gus

Hi

I'll let you know when I *ever* see a GFCI on the post at any campground anywhere ..... (including ones newly wired up in the last 9 months ...).

Bob

[Al and Missy]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

I'll let you know when I *ever* see a GFCI on the post at any campground anywhere ..... (including ones newly wired up in the last 9 months ...).

Bob

At least for marinas, the GFCI does not have to, and in our recent re-wire is not, at the pedestal. There are GFCI breakers in the main distribution panel.

Al

[gklott]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

I'll let you know when I *ever* see a GFCI on the post at any campground anywhere ..... (including ones newly wired up in the last 9 months ...)

NFPA released the 2020 NEC in Sept. 2019. Concerning your "ever see", as authorities having jurisdiction statutorily adopt the 2020 code, you will see new RV parks incorporating GFCI at the service pedestal. In Texas, 2020 NEC adoption comes under Chapter 1305.201 of the Texas Electrical Safety and Licensing Act.

Hopefully, RV Park owners, and their insurance companies, will see the safety and economic value in upgrading to GFCI at the pedestal as regular maintenance.

The facts are clear in documentation presented to the NFPA committees for the change - GFCI saves lives. It would likely have prevented the death of 3-year-old Landyn Keener, who was electrocuted in 2017 when he touched his family’s Airstream in Amboy, Ill.

Thus my recommendation... follow best engineering practice described in the newest code now. Add GFCI as a safety measure for your RV outlet in the main panel or at the new outlet box islandtrader is installing.

73/gus

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Well, the state of Georgia was not wiring things this way last June .... Given the number of people who have issues plugging into a protected outlet in the garage, I would guess that any early adopters will be in for a *lot* of complaints.

Bob

[islandtrader]

All I know about the new rule is that it is a PIA for Marina's...While on a boat trip this summer a friends 49' 1989 trawler could not plug into a lot of marinas with out tripping the GFIC. The problem was that when he plugged in it blew not just his pedestal but everyone down line. So you can see the domino effect. Funny thing was he has 2 50 amp circuits. The newly wired one was OK...the old one would blow every time.

[islandtrader]

Originally Posted by gklott

Thus my recommendation... follow best engineering practice described in the newest code now. Add GFCI as a safety measure for your RV outlet in the main panel or at the new outlet box islandtrader is installing.

73/gus

Are saying add a 30 amp GFIC as the main breaker...Plus a GFIC for the outlets?

[gklott]

Originally Posted by islandtrader

The problem was that when he plugged in it blew not just his pedestal but everyone down line. So you can see the domino effect. Funny thing was he has 2 50 amp circuits. The newly wired one was OK...the old one would blow every time.

Hopefully the marina wouldn't let him plug in, as there is a safety issue with his boat's electrical system to cause what you describe.

The marine industry settled on using ELCI, 30 mA trip, for boat's main service breaker vs. the GFCI 5 mA trip for personal safety.

Hopefully RV Park industry moves forward for safety as the RV service GFCI connections become the standard.

73/gus

[gklott]

Originally Posted by islandtrader

Are saying add a 30 amp GFIC as the main breaker...Plus a GFIC for the outlets?

No, not for both, which is why I used "or". You still need the disconnect at your new 30A outlet, and that may be the most convenient place to put a GFCI breaker now - serving two safety purposes. I can recommend the Eaton CHU4NS or CHU1N9N4NS box for this purpose. Otherwise GFCI at your home's main branch circuit load center, with a regular breaker for RV outlet disconnect, is another option.

If your RV regularly trips any GFCI, you need to discover the cause. GFCI breakers are highly reliable today, and when they trip repeatedly, there's an issue.

Is it possible the sum of typical 1 to 3.5mA appliance leakage currents could cause GFCI trips?

We had a couple unexplained trips on our 30A GFCI trailer outlet. Our new 19'' Escape Industries trailer had a WFCO 8950 DC power center. After some internet searching, I repeatedly found articles and posts of others experiencing a similar issue. I replaced the WFCO with a Sterling Power- ProCharge Ultra (PCU1240) charger like we have in our Airstream (PCU1260). The ProCharge Ultra has ground leakage < 0.5 mA. Since then, we have not experienced a single 30A GFCI RV outlet trip.

Was that WFCO "the" cause, or was it aggregated with something else? I cannot tell without a detailed transient current monitoring of the older configuration.

73/gus

[KevinFH]

Originally Posted by islandtrader

I posted some thing similar...however I just want to know a yes or no.You can explain why if you want to.

Do I need a 30 amp breaker in the sub panel along with my other breakers.

This is a 30amp shore power set up.

Attachment 356782

No:
1) Your sub-panel is for branching out to different circuits.
2) The main panel is for safety/disconnect at the input.

Simple?

[islandtrader]

Attachment 357415

Originally Posted by islandtrader

I posted some thing similar...however I just want to know a yes or no.You can explain why if you want to.

Do I need a 30 amp breaker in the sub panel along with my other breakers.

This is a 30amp shore power set up.

By the different comments it seems that there might be some confusion. So let me try this again...with a new picture.

I really want to split my outlets on two different breakers and do not want to combine with any other appliance.

That means 6 breakers not counting the Main 30 amp.

The small box that holds the 30 amp looks like I can pass thru to the larger box. Energize the rest of the circuits. Can this be done and or is it the right way to accomplish what I want with out getting a bigger breaker box...(I'm really tight on room)