Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-24-2019, 03:49 PM   #1
4 Rivet Member
 
islandtrader's Avatar

 
1956 22' Caravanner
Don Pedro Island , Florida
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 361
Need a Simple Answer

I posted some thing similar...however I just want to know a yes or no.You can explain why if you want to.

Do I need a 30 amp breaker in the sub panel along with my other breakers.

This is a 30amp shore power set up.

Click image for larger version

Name:	30 amp main:sub.jpg
Views:	30
Size:	89.6 KB
ID:	356782
__________________

__________________
My Rebuild page : 1956 Caravanner

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f11...ml#post1921527
islandtrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2019, 04:08 PM   #2
Half a Rivet Short
 
2017 30' Classic
Carlisle , Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 8,520
yes
__________________

uncle_bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2019, 05:28 PM   #3
Married with Airstream
 
drbrick's Avatar

 
2004 25' International CCD
Vancouver Island , British Columbia
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 378
Images: 2
+2 with uncle Bob
__________________
La Dolce Vita Brick & Mona
2004 International 25CCD Registered Name "Blue Streak"
2013 F-150HD FX4 SuperCrew Lariart (MaxTow) "Red Dragon"
drbrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2019, 05:35 PM   #4
Site Team
 
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,375
Images: 59
I say yes also.

Not gonna quote a technical reason from NEC, but I would suggest that there are too many dog bone adapters out there.
markdoane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2019, 05:57 PM   #5
Rivet Master
 
A W Warn's Avatar

 
2000 25' Safari
1999 34' Excella
Davidson County , North Carolina
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,058
yes
__________________
Alan
2014 Silverado 1500 Crew Cab 5.3L maximum trailering package
A W Warn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2019, 06:51 PM   #6
Rivet Master
 
Al and Missy's Avatar

 
2002 30' Classic S/O
Melbourne Beach , Florida
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,809
Yes, per NFPA70, 551.45 (C).

Incidentally, I thought the answer was no, that a separate main disconnect was acceptable until I ran into the above reference. One could argue that a separate 30A breaker would protect the panel, but the reference, discussing the panelboard, says a main disconnect device and a main overcurrent protection device must be provided. A 30A toggle circuit breaker meets both requirements.

"But wait, there's more...." Typically only a maximum of 5 circuits are allowed. 6 or more require a 120/240 50A service. But if one circuit is dedicated to the converter and the total load is compliant, 6 are permitted on a 30A service.

Al
__________________

"You cannot reason someone out of a position they have not been reasoned into"

Al, K5TAN and Missy, N4RGO
2002 Classic 30 Slideout
S/OS #004
2013 Dodge 2500 Laramie 4x4 Megacab Cummins
2001 Safari 25 RB Twin (Gone, but not forgotten)
WBCCI 1322, TAC FL-39, AIR 82265

Al and Missy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2019, 06:59 PM   #7
Rivet Master
 
J. Morgan's Avatar
 
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton , Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,857
Images: 11
I used a box with a 30 amp breaker almost as soon as the shore power entered the trailer, it just seemed right to do so.

You DO NOT need a second thirty amp breaker in the sub panel though.
__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......

J. Morgan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 07:33 AM   #8
4 Rivet Member
 
islandtrader's Avatar

 
1956 22' Caravanner
Don Pedro Island , Florida
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 361
Thanks for the info...I think this is the set up I will use...Still working on what to combine with what.

Since I only have 6 duplex outlets...I think I will put the GFIC at the beginning on a 20 amp breaker. From what I read this should be ok. All the rest can be on there own breakers . Comments?

(The drawing is showing charger and outlets combined which is not correct.)

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2636.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	383.0 KB
ID:	356823
__________________
My Rebuild page : 1956 Caravanner

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f11...ml#post1921527
islandtrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 11:46 AM   #9
Stay CazuaL
 
cazual6's Avatar

 
2018 25' Flying Cloud
2014 19' Flying Cloud
Reseda , California
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 808
Images: 1
yes

always need a breaker for every switch leg.
__________________
"No job is so simple that it cannot be done wrong."
"Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege."
"Either I will find a way, or I will make one."
WBCCI 9164
cazual6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 07:36 PM   #10
Rivet Master
 
gklott's Avatar

 
2004 30' Classic
Johnson City , Texas
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 571
Images: 86
Make it a GFCI breaker

Agree, in the subpanel, per NFPA70, 551.45 (C). You should always turn off the 30A outlet before connecting trailer, and the breaker at the outlet provides this disconnect.

Also, under 2020 NEC 210.8 (A) (3) or (B) (4), you must also use a GFCI breaker for your 30A RV outlet. This is a change in the NEC where they removed GFCI for 15A and 20A circuits only. 2020 NEC requires GFCI for "50 amperes or less".

We have GFCI breakers now on all our RV outlets, 50A and 30A. We have three 30A outlets and one 50A outlet, and all GFCI breakers are working well. You can get the 30A single pole GFCI breakers and 50A double-pole GFCI breaker at Lowes and Home Depot.

73/gus
__________________
Gus - KR4K : Mary - K5MCL
2004 30ft. Classic
2017 Infiniti QX80 Limited
ProPride 3P/Prodigy P3
gklott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2019, 08:08 AM   #11
Half a Rivet Short
 
2017 30' Classic
Carlisle , Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 8,520
Quote:
Originally Posted by gklott View Post
Agree, in the subpanel, per NFPA70, 551.45 (C). You should always turn off the 30A outlet before connecting trailer, and the breaker at the outlet provides this disconnect.

Also, under 2020 NEC 210.8 (A) (3) or (B) (4), you must also use a GFCI breaker for your 30A RV outlet. This is a change in the NEC where they removed GFCI for 15A and 20A circuits only. 2020 NEC requires GFCI for "50 amperes or less".

We have GFCI breakers now on all our RV outlets, 50A and 30A. We have three 30A outlets and one 50A outlet, and all GFCI breakers are working well. You can get the 30A single pole GFCI breakers and 50A double-pole GFCI breaker at Lowes and Home Depot.

73/gus
Hi

I'll let you know when I *ever* see a GFCI on the post at any campground anywhere ..... (including ones newly wired up in the last 9 months ...).

Bob
uncle_bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2019, 09:46 AM   #12
Rivet Master
 
Al and Missy's Avatar

 
2002 30' Classic S/O
Melbourne Beach , Florida
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob View Post
Hi

I'll let you know when I *ever* see a GFCI on the post at any campground anywhere ..... (including ones newly wired up in the last 9 months ...).

Bob
At least for marinas, the GFCI does not have to, and in our recent re-wire is not, at the pedestal. There are GFCI breakers in the main distribution panel.

Al
__________________

"You cannot reason someone out of a position they have not been reasoned into"

Al, K5TAN and Missy, N4RGO
2002 Classic 30 Slideout
S/OS #004
2013 Dodge 2500 Laramie 4x4 Megacab Cummins
2001 Safari 25 RB Twin (Gone, but not forgotten)
WBCCI 1322, TAC FL-39, AIR 82265

Al and Missy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2019, 03:53 AM   #13
Rivet Master
 
gklott's Avatar

 
2004 30' Classic
Johnson City , Texas
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 571
Images: 86
Be smart - stay safe

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob View Post
I'll let you know when I *ever* see a GFCI on the post at any campground anywhere ..... (including ones newly wired up in the last 9 months ...)
NFPA released the 2020 NEC in Sept. 2019. Concerning your "ever see", as authorities having jurisdiction statutorily adopt the 2020 code, you will see new RV parks incorporating GFCI at the service pedestal. In Texas, 2020 NEC adoption comes under Chapter 1305.201 of the Texas Electrical Safety and Licensing Act.

Hopefully, RV Park owners, and their insurance companies, will see the safety and economic value in upgrading to GFCI at the pedestal as regular maintenance.

The facts are clear in documentation presented to the NFPA committees for the change - GFCI saves lives. It would likely have prevented the death of 3-year-old Landyn Keener, who was electrocuted in 2017 when he touched his family’s Airstream in Amboy, Ill.

Thus my recommendation... follow best engineering practice described in the newest code now. Add GFCI as a safety measure for your RV outlet in the main panel or at the new outlet box islandtrader is installing.

73/gus
__________________
Gus - KR4K : Mary - K5MCL
2004 30ft. Classic
2017 Infiniti QX80 Limited
ProPride 3P/Prodigy P3
gklott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2019, 06:33 AM   #14
Half a Rivet Short
 
2017 30' Classic
Carlisle , Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 8,520
Hi

Well, the state of Georgia was not wiring things this way last June .... Given the number of people who have issues plugging into a protected outlet in the garage, I would guess that any early adopters will be in for a *lot* of complaints.

Bob
uncle_bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2019, 09:46 AM   #15
4 Rivet Member
 
islandtrader's Avatar

 
1956 22' Caravanner
Don Pedro Island , Florida
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 361
All I know about the new rule is that it is a PIA for Marina's...While on a boat trip this summer a friends 49' 1989 trawler could not plug into a lot of marinas with out tripping the GFIC. The problem was that when he plugged in it blew not just his pedestal but everyone down line. So you can see the domino effect. Funny thing was he has 2 50 amp circuits. The newly wired one was OK...the old one would blow every time.
__________________
My Rebuild page : 1956 Caravanner

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f11...ml#post1921527
islandtrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2019, 09:49 AM   #16
4 Rivet Member
 
islandtrader's Avatar

 
1956 22' Caravanner
Don Pedro Island , Florida
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by gklott View Post

Thus my recommendation... follow best engineering practice described in the newest code now. Add GFCI as a safety measure for your RV outlet in the main panel or at the new outlet box islandtrader is installing.

73/gus
Are saying add a 30 amp GFIC as the main breaker...Plus a GFIC for the outlets?
__________________
My Rebuild page : 1956 Caravanner

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f11...ml#post1921527
islandtrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2019, 09:14 AM   #17
Rivet Master
 
gklott's Avatar

 
2004 30' Classic
Johnson City , Texas
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 571
Images: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by islandtrader View Post
The problem was that when he plugged in it blew not just his pedestal but everyone down line. So you can see the domino effect. Funny thing was he has 2 50 amp circuits. The newly wired one was OK...the old one would blow every time.
Hopefully the marina wouldn't let him plug in, as there is a safety issue with his boat's electrical system to cause what you describe.

The marine industry settled on using ELCI, 30 mA trip, for boat's main service breaker vs. the GFCI 5 mA trip for personal safety.

Hopefully RV Park industry moves forward for safety as the RV service GFCI connections become the standard.

73/gus
__________________
Gus - KR4K : Mary - K5MCL
2004 30ft. Classic
2017 Infiniti QX80 Limited
ProPride 3P/Prodigy P3
gklott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2019, 09:49 AM   #18
Rivet Master
 
gklott's Avatar

 
2004 30' Classic
Johnson City , Texas
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 571
Images: 86
GFCI problem = find the cause

Quote:
Originally Posted by islandtrader View Post
Are saying add a 30 amp GFIC as the main breaker...Plus a GFIC for the outlets?
No, not for both, which is why I used "or". You still need the disconnect at your new 30A outlet, and that may be the most convenient place to put a GFCI breaker now - serving two safety purposes. I can recommend the Eaton CHU4NS or CHU1N9N4NS box for this purpose. Otherwise GFCI at your home's main branch circuit load center, with a regular breaker for RV outlet disconnect, is another option.

If your RV regularly trips any GFCI, you need to discover the cause. GFCI breakers are highly reliable today, and when they trip repeatedly, there's an issue.

Is it possible the sum of typical 1 to 3.5mA appliance leakage currents could cause GFCI trips?

We had a couple unexplained trips on our 30A GFCI trailer outlet. Our new 19'' Escape Industries trailer had a WFCO 8950 DC power center. After some internet searching, I repeatedly found articles and posts of others experiencing a similar issue. I replaced the WFCO with a Sterling Power- ProCharge Ultra (PCU1240) charger like we have in our Airstream (PCU1260). The ProCharge Ultra has ground leakage < 0.5 mA. Since then, we have not experienced a single 30A GFCI RV outlet trip.

Was that WFCO "the" cause, or was it aggregated with something else? I cannot tell without a detailed transient current monitoring of the older configuration.

73/gus
__________________
Gus - KR4K : Mary - K5MCL
2004 30ft. Classic
2017 Infiniti QX80 Limited
ProPride 3P/Prodigy P3
gklott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2019, 05:30 AM   #19
2 Rivet Member
 
1993 21' Sovereign
2016 28' Flying Cloud
Bradenton , Florida
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by islandtrader View Post
I posted some thing similar...however I just want to know a yes or no.You can explain why if you want to.

Do I need a 30 amp breaker in the sub panel along with my other breakers.

This is a 30amp shore power set up.

Attachment 356782
No:
1) Your sub-panel is for branching out to different circuits.
2) The main panel is for safety/disconnect at the input.

Simple?
KevinFH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2019, 03:54 PM   #20
4 Rivet Member
 
islandtrader's Avatar

 
1956 22' Caravanner
Don Pedro Island , Florida
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 361
New Information

Attachment 357415
Quote:
Originally Posted by islandtrader View Post
I posted some thing similar...however I just want to know a yes or no.You can explain why if you want to.

Do I need a 30 amp breaker in the sub panel along with my other breakers.

This is a 30amp shore power set up.
By the different comments it seems that there might be some confusion. So let me try this again...with a new picture.

I really want to split my outlets on two different breakers and do not want to combine with any other appliance.

That means 6 breakers not counting the Main 30 amp.

The small box that holds the 30 amp looks like I can pass thru to the larger box. Energize the rest of the circuits. Can this be done and or is it the right way to accomplish what I want with out getting a bigger breaker box...(I'm really tight on room)


Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2668.jpg
Views:	8
Size:	273.0 KB
ID:	357417
__________________

__________________
My Rebuild page : 1956 Caravanner

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f11...ml#post1921527
islandtrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Simple question, probably not so simple answer AWCHIEF Generators & Solar Power 10 01-23-2016 04:23 PM
Can u help me? Need answer for my airstream final paper. Everton Off Topic Forum 4 07-21-2011 05:39 PM
Need Answer ASAP - Floor Separation andi-n-jag Repairing/Replacing Floor &/or Frame 9 06-27-2011 01:05 AM
need a quick answer, 8/8/10 8am est moparjohn 1970-79 Tradewind 8 08-08-2010 09:48 AM
Newbie - question on rims (need answer today!) ltenbrink Wheels, Hubs & Bearings 3 06-08-2009 09:49 PM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.