Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-03-2019, 09:18 AM   #71
3 Rivet Member

 
2019 30' Classic
Belen , New Mexico
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by A W Warn View Post
You keep mixing your answers with combinations, regarding utility power and generator power. Let's stick to the generator part.

If a generator is grounded and bonded, in the event of a fault within the trailer there is a potential circuit through a human body, trailer skin to earth ground.

If a generator is not grounded and bonded, there is no potential circuit through a human body to ground through the trailer skin, therefore that hazard does not exist.

ps
I do not agree with "Bonding your generator puts you in the same safety arena as being powered by a utility pylon. It's the safest condition. "
Now your mixing answers. Where is the generator bonded to "earth ground"? given that there must be continuity for power to flow, unless you have a ground stake (or other such metal earth ground) at the generator, power will not flow from the trailer skin to earth ground. Bonding neutral/ground at the generator does not magically create current through earth ground. If you have an issue, it merely provides a secondary conductor to complete the circuit back to the generator through the ground wire. Your trailer ground is NOT earth ground unless you are connected to an earth ground (utility power or a grounding rod of some sort).

If your trailer has a wiring issue where power flows through the ground you are much, much safer than if it flows through you while finding a return path.

In any case, power will more readily flow through the metal of the trailer as it finds it's way back to the generator than you standing on the ground through a non-existent return path. Having the bonded Neutral/Ground at the power source is ALWAYS safer than not having it.

There are rare cases where having a floating ground is better, but they do not exist in a properly wired house/TT when dealing with power. don't argue with me, argue with the state wiring codes in EVERY state. yes, those codes will grant you exceptions, but they are generally for special use situations.

House wiring codes are usually more stringent that TT wiring codes. Not because trailers are different, but because more people live in houses that TT.
__________________

Ephraim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2019, 09:31 AM   #72
Rivet Master
 
Al and Missy's Avatar

 
2002 30' Classic S/O
Melbourne Beach , Florida
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,461
What Alan said. The only reason to put a ground rod at a trailer is because the shore power is referenced to ground some distance away and the earth potential at the trailer can be different from that point, thus a shock from the trailer skin to ground can occur.

When using a generator that is not referenced to ground, there should be no shock hazard. Even if the hot and neutral or hot and ground somehow get crossed in the trailer, there is no reference to earth ground and therefore, no shock hazard.

The only reason for a bonding plug is to clear the error in a power protection system when the generator does not have neutral bonded to ground and the protection system wants to see one.

There is no reason not to put a ground rod at the trailer; it just is not really necessary on a generator and only provides marginal benefit (if any) when hooked up to shore power.

Al
__________________

__________________

"You cannot reason someone out of a position they have not been reasoned into"

Al, K5TAN and Missy, N4RGO
2002 Classic 30 Slideout
S/OS #004
2013 Dodge 2500 Laramie 4x4 Megacab Cummins
2001 Safari 25 RB Twin (Gone, but not forgotten)
WBCCI 1322, TAC FL-39, AIR 82265

Al and Missy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2019, 11:11 AM   #73
Rivet Master
 
garry's Avatar
 
1969 31' Sovereign
Broken Arrow , Oklahoma
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,434
Images: 7
The one time you will wish you had a grounding plug at the generator.
Should you have a ground fault (short ground to neutral) in the trailer and you touch the generator and trailer at the same time you become the return path and that hurts that is the safety of a grounding plug.

Basic electricity (current or amps) will never ever leave it's starting point if it cannot see all the way back to where it started from so without the grounding plug in a generator electricity (current) will never leave the generator with an open neutral.
__________________
Garry
garry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2019, 11:20 AM   #74
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Gainesville , Florida
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,980
Blog Entries: 2
So one of the internet experts here is saying all those thousands of honda generators being used are unsafe. Please sell them cheap, i am interested in a few dozen. They are unsafe! I also have grounding pipes available.
xrvr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2019, 11:44 AM   #75
Airstream Ambassador
 
AirstreamInc's Avatar
 
Jackson Center , Ohio
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 494
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by turk123 View Post
We are at Alumapolosa and are at the Holloway camp area. The Airstream folks provide a Hodge podge of electrical wiring and 4 trailers split 20 amps. When we hooked up the electrical my outer skin was electrified! They brought back the electricians to repair the lines on the ground. Yesterday I adjusted my hitch and as I was kneeling and grabbing the hitch, I got knocked backward by a charge of electricity.

In the afternoon a wire nut got hot and melted through so the wires shorted against the metal box. It sent the voltage through 8 trailers including mine. It completely fried two trailers converters, blew out a surge protector and fried my HDMI mono price box and melted my HDMI cables ends.

I am now getting power on the skin of the trailer. It has shorted something to the metal.

I talked with Airstream service today and they sent a guy our to look. He did not find a short. I took my fried splitter box into service and the had another they gave me. They also set an appointment for 7 AM tomorrow to see if they can determine why power is shorted to the body. This is serious as it is a full 120 volts at 20 amps. They can't replace one of the HDMI cables running to the bedroom as it takes about 6-7 hours to run to that area.

We have an appointment in mid-July for this and all the other stuff we need to be fixed. If they can't find the short, we will be without our trailer for the summer.

Not a very good end to a great two-month trip. I hope they find the short tomorrow so we can be safe.
Hi Turk123,

We're sorry to hear about what happened. As mentioned on this thread, we host the event that Airstream Life produces. We're working with organizers and our service department to better understand what happened. Please don't hesitate to reach out if you need additional assistance.

Thank you.
__________________
Official account for Airstream, Inc.
Airstream Customer Service and Technical Support can be reached at 1 (877) 596-6111, option 1.
AirstreamInc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2019, 01:05 PM   #76
Rivet Master
 
Hittenstiehl's Avatar
 
1962 28' Ambassador
1961 19' Globetrotter
Mesa , Arizona
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,987
Images: 9
Waninae, I hear your concern but calling the city police or code inspectors is way unnecessary. They have their expertise areas but private events on private property or daisy chaining a couple of RVs together would likely not be one of them unless they are campers.

Electricity is a very serious matter and should be highly respected at all times.

But this IS how it was safely done and is still done in big rallies. Thinking it will likely be discontinued soon as people have a lot more electrical devices in their trailers now. Many people don't understand the need to run it very sparingly.

Rally's of this size are often hundreds or thousands of trailers in the middle of a farm field. Can't all run a generator otherwise you wouldn't be able to breathe or hear but yes you can't also go around electrifying trailers.
__________________

Hittenstiehl
Hittenstiehl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2019, 11:50 PM   #77
Rivet Master
 
ROBERTSUNRUS's Avatar

 
2005 25' Safari
Salem , Oregon
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,729
Images: 18
Blog Entries: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al and Missy View Post
What Alan said. The only reason to put a ground rod at a trailer is because the shore power is referenced to ground some distance away and the earth potential at the trailer can be different from that point, thus a shock from the trailer skin to ground can occur.

When using a generator that is not referenced to ground, there should be no shock hazard. Even if the hot and neutral or hot and ground somehow get crossed in the trailer, there is no reference to earth ground and therefore, no shock hazard.

The only reason for a bonding plug is to clear the error in a power protection system when the generator does not have neutral bonded to ground and the protection system wants to see one.

There is no reason not to put a ground rod at the trailer; it just is not really necessary on a generator and only provides marginal benefit (if any) when hooked up to shore power.

Al
Hi, I'm reading RED.
__________________
Bob

2005 Safari 25-B
"Le Petit Chateau Argent"
[ Small Silver Castle ]
2000 Navigator / 2014 F-150 Eco-Boost / Equal-i-zer / P-3
YAMAHA 2400 / AIR #12144
ROBERTSUNRUS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2019, 07:06 AM   #78
Half a Rivet Short
 
2017 30' Classic
Carlisle , Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 6,828
Quote:
Originally Posted by A W Warn View Post
I do not understand the "need" part of your statement.
What is the benefit of bonding ground to neutral in any portable generator used only for a travel trailer?
Hi

If you are connected to a generator *and* the ground is *not* bonded to neutral in any way, then it's floating. If there is a short to ground, no current will flow. The safety feature provided by the ground wire has been defeated in this case.

The same is true in any "loose ground" situation. That may or may not have been part of the problem that started this thread. A "hot skin" is one of the indications, but not a 100% guarantee. There can be other reasons.

With a floating ground, things like ground fault circuit breakers get easily confused ( = provide no protection / trip randomly ). Since most AS trailers have them, this alone is a good reason to bond the ground.

A lot of electronic gear has filtering on the input. That filtering returns a minor amount of current to ground and puts an un-bonded ground at about 60V. It will not kill you, but it will give you a tingle. Not something you want to put up with all the time. (I learned this one back in the 60's .... when 3 prong plugs were not as common ... errr ... ).

Is a plug going to solve all the issues that can come up? Of course not. You still are floating relative to "earth". Leakage will put you somewhere / who knows where relative to the planet. Since the skin and frame of the trailer and generator are grounded, it's *likely* that leakage will put that close to the planet.

Now, toss in a cable TV connection. That coax shield probably *is* tied to a real ground somewhere. It also probably is tied to the electrical ground in your trailer through the TV or other gear. Hmmmm ..... probably not a good idea to have one hand on the cable connector and the other on the trailer when hooking things up at random campsites ... hmmm ....

Lots of variables.

Bob
uncle_bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2019, 07:37 AM   #79
Rivet Master
 
A W Warn's Avatar

 
2000 25' Safari
1999 34' Excella
Davidson County , North Carolina
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,781
Thank you!
I'll test my GFCI circuit while connected to my generator, without a bonding plug.
I was under the impression the GFCI would work correctly, since the device should sense differential voltages between line and neutral.

Boondocking with cable TV Having cable while on the generator would rarely be an issue.
__________________
Alan
2014 Silverado 1500 Crew Cab 5.3L maximum trailering package
A W Warn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2019, 09:02 AM   #80
Rivet Master

 
2007 22' International CCD
Corona , California
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,952
My trailer got fried!

True. The GFCI will work properly because it only detects hot-Neutral current imbalance to function.

However, it points out the problem of ground connection bonding to the same point. In this case, if the only ‘ground’ connection is the skinny cable TV wire, a surge or lightning strike can only get to earth through that skinny wire. Which will most likely literally explode. That’s why all ground conductors in a system need to be tied to a single ground point for safety.
__________________
Rich, KE4GNK/AE, Overkill Engineering Dept.
'The Silver HamShack' ('07 International 22FB CCD 75th Anniversary)
Multiple Yaesu Ham Radios inside and many antennae sprouting from roof, ProPride hitch, Prodigy P2 controller.
2012 shortbed CrewMax 4x4 Toyota Tacoma TV with more antennae on it.
rmkrum is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2019, 09:58 AM   #81
3 Rivet Member

 
2019 30' Classic
Belen , New Mexico
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrvr View Post
So one of the internet experts here is saying all those thousands of honda generators being used are unsafe. Please sell them cheap, i am interested in a few dozen. They are unsafe! I also have grounding pipes available.
Nice hyperbole. way to read into what isn't there.

"Being unsafe" is a far cry from "being safer".

Just because someone has a different opinion than you does not mean they are an "Internet Expert". funny how some are free with the personal insults when they disagree. I guess the mantra is if you can't argue on the basis of fact, do it on insults.
Ephraim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2019, 05:03 PM   #82
Wise Elder
 
Jammer's Avatar
 
2010 30' Classic
Vintage Kin Owner
South of the river , Minnesota
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by turk123 View Post
Well, my trailer checked out OK. The service center told me to bring it in at 7:00 AM this morning! They checked all the circuits and converter. Everything has passed.

Cool, glad you're OK, glad you're trailer is ok.





Quote:

I will never go on a daisy chain 20 amp circuit again. When we arrived, I hooked up and didn't realize my 50 amp surge protector would work on the lower voltage. My skin was live with 110 AC power!

...


Later, someone must have used to much power and a wire nut melted and shorted against the metal box sending a surge through 7 trailers. It fried two converters, a surge protector and my HDMI cables and monoprice switch. I also had hot skin again.

I'm not buying it. Wire nuts don't just melt because someone used too much power. Whoever wired this up made mistakes. We could speculate as to what those mistakes were in particular, but it doesn't matter, there's a safe way to do this sort of thing and they didn't do it.





Quote:
Lessons learned. Always use a surge protector even if it fries the $375 item instead of the $139 switch. I guess it could have been worse.

It might help, but probably not.


The only complete defense against a hot ground is to use an isolation transformer. They're big and heavy and expensive, but they work. Some marine shore power systems use them. Essentially you isolate the trailer from the incoming power in such a way that you can create your own ground.
__________________
To learn to see below the surface, you must adjust your altitude
Jammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2019, 07:28 PM   #83
4 Rivet Member
 
2007 27' Safari FB SE
Forest Grove , Oregon
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner3 View Post
Perhaps the same KOA I have dealt with in the past in Nebraska (Grand Island KOA Journey). The KOA owner saw no problem with an open ground on his system. Was hostile when I pointed it out and asked for another campsite. I finally told his wife she needed to do an internet search on this problem and educate her husband before someone got hurt.
So Ridgerunner, knowing the rules and not wanting get censured...I will not say names, but would not tell you you are wrong. How recently were you there? I was there in September of 2017 - so maybe the bonehead got the message and fixed the electrical since then. But what did the work around was using my 50 to 30 amp adapter and running off the 50 amp side. It was disappointing to me the response given when I pointed out the ground fault issue as it is a very nice property and very roomy. I simply pointed out that an aluminum trailer with a ground fault problem is not good juju. He got in the golf cart and drove away.
But they did have some nice local brews in the store. Hence my conflict about the place....nice in transit place, good sites, good store, just scary electric.
bweybright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2019, 08:51 PM   #84
Rivet Master
 
Al and Missy's Avatar

 
2002 30' Classic S/O
Melbourne Beach , Florida
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,461
A little terminology. To me, daisy chaining means power pedestal to trailer 1. Trailer 2 plugged in to trailer 1's external outlet. Trailer 3 plugged in to trailer 2's external outlet. Etcetera. Current to feed all subsequent trailers flows through each trailer. This is a BAD IDEA. I would never allow my trailer to be connected like this.

I suspect what was done at the rally is a power cord with n-way outlet box (lets pick two 15A duplex outlets, for a total of 4 receptacles). Then 4 trailers plug in to that box. The outlet box is plugged in to a 15A outlet which, by code, must be protected by a 15A breaker. There is no way what one trailer does can cause damage in another trailer. Pop the 15A breaker and kill the other three trailer's power, yes, but it will not damage the other trailers. Now if the outlet box is miswired, then yes, damage can occur.

Al
__________________

__________________

"You cannot reason someone out of a position they have not been reasoned into"

Al, K5TAN and Missy, N4RGO
2002 Classic 30 Slideout
S/OS #004
2013 Dodge 2500 Laramie 4x4 Megacab Cummins
2001 Safari 25 RB Twin (Gone, but not forgotten)
WBCCI 1322, TAC FL-39, AIR 82265

Al and Missy is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
No power to trailer from shore or batteries. Converter fried? MarkHB Batteries, Univolts, Converters & Inverters 7 07-09-2017 04:47 PM
Fried hot water heater diode jimlegs 2006 Safari SE 12 09-09-2012 10:36 AM
Fried trailer wires Monicaro Electrical - Systems, Generators, Batteries & Solar 3 06-28-2011 04:08 PM
Breaker for running lights got fried dickmfield Lights - Interior & Exterior 2 05-06-2010 02:05 PM
Power hitch jack - fried? Toasty's Dad Hitches, Couplers & Balls 9 02-06-2006 10:26 AM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.