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Old 08-17-2010, 10:06 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by campadk View Post
Any comment 2air on the back compartment having a large gab that allows things to fall out on the highway?
yeah that's been an issue for a long time on some of the safari/bambi models...

of course it COULD B that bambi needs her running gear balanced...

the sad thing is this...

the CLASSIC models are simply better finished and with MORE details, in terms of these issues...

fewer random OPENings, tighter fit on the belly pan/banana wrap,

and almost no holes near the steps or bumpers or A frame for critters to hitch a ride...

and the under bumper sliding drawer fits better (it is still not WATER tight by any measure)

there are easily 100 places on the outer structure of safari, clouds, bambi and internationals...

that are more tightly finished on the classics.

but most buyers don't care because of the interior look and feel.
__________

and as customers we are entirely to blame for where the models/lines and trim are headed...

a/s builds what sells and most new buyers want shiny interior walls and techy laminates.

folks care more about the mp3 connections or token led bulbs or a "new" color palate...

than the water capacity or furnace ducting, or storage finish/fit assembly.

so a/s will continue to DEcontent critical elements that most don't appreciate...

while featuring gloss and sparkle and 'wenge' innovations.
__________

there is NO QUESTION some design glitches continue to roll out of production

because they can ROLL 'em out that way,

and folks will still gobble da turkeys up.

ok, that's my rant 42day.

cheers
2air'
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:25 PM   #30
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Having bought our 2009 model AS this year and now giving it its initial shakedown cruises, I am starting to find out many of the issues Dave is pointing out about the design/construction of these beasts also. There have been a few disappointments, but overall, we are in love with our Flying Cloud!

A good question to 2Airishuman...why does foam sealing trouble you?
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:32 AM   #31
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I've used expandable spray can sealing foam with success...

It will deteriorate if exposed to UV outside light from the sun - spraying any external surface with a heavy quality paint will help here - I use a silver spray paint that has solids in it...

Rodents will chew through sealing foam - again, painting helps here...maybe the inserting of some SS steel wool before applying the foam would allow more protection...

Sealing foam, if over-used and contained in an area could force some components apart or distort the area - those expanding bubbles can have a great force if contained without a relief area...

The cured foam could absorb some moisture and wick it up into the floor boards, I suppose...but proper application with several coats of a thick spray paint should ward off those problems...

I've used sealing foam around batteries without a hold down that are somewhat 'loose' inside a battery box - holds em' from shifting around, and it can be easily 'chipped' away when it comes time to replace em' - again spraying the cured foam with some black paint to match the battery...

I like the stuff, but there may be some downsides I'm not aware of...

Ray
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:23 AM   #32
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ray has started a good list of spray foam issues.

the water holding and INEVITABLE deterioration in a vvvvvibrrrrattttting structure are problems.

the fact that foams need to be COVERED with paint means 2 steps where ONE step is effect with the right materials.

many spray foams do NOT react well with metals like aluminum and can INCREASE corrosion.

not that corrosion is an issue on newer streams...

many isocyanate foams are irritants, known carcinogens and extremely reactive with metals...

the polyurethane foams are SAFER and more water resistant

but still not recommended around aluminum and may still promote corrosion.

spray foams work great around WOOD, or plaster board or paper or plastic or steel...

but that is typical for building construction not usually part of a stream or rolling aluminum can ...

holding water pipes still in/near wood flooring might be an ok application for foam,

but simple tie downs or screwed down brackets work nicely too and can be REused or RE positioned.

and HOLES on the undersides of streams are best made smaller with materials like those listed earlier.

aluminum tape for example is amazingly good stuff as is glass fiber pads or riveted pieces of skin.

get a pop rivet gun or a large bag of aluminum screws and some aluminum tape...

these are essential repair tools (along with duct tape in a pinch) that DO play well with our trailers...
__________

i'm no materials expert or construction wizard but spray foam in/on my stream isn't likely to happen.

i'd rather feed the mice cheese or peanut butter.

cheers
2air'
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Old 08-18-2010, 02:47 AM   #33
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Foam Eating Vermin

In general I agree with 2air on the foam usage.

I used foam to fill some holes the citrus rats were coming thru into my Fl. house. They ate thru it and continued to use the same hiway as before.

I didn't know about the corrosion issues with alum., though. I know some guys on the Spartan Trailer site that might be regretting their choice of insulation materials on a few 60+ year old trailers.
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Old 08-18-2010, 03:00 AM   #34
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I think I've got it now, thanks 2air, I'm going to coat my foamed rodent holes with peanut butter to shut out the UV rays...

OK, OK, another attempt at some late night humor...

Ray
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Old 08-18-2010, 07:35 AM   #35
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2air is always full of excellent insight.

The foam I used contains MDI monomer, polyurethane resin and propane/isobutane.. yuck. I'll see about spraying some paint over it on our next trip.

Ps. I promise not to use any more foam
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Old 08-18-2010, 09:25 AM   #36
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If you do use spray foam, and there are few uses for it in a trailer, note there are two kinds—one expands a lot and the other doesn't. Read the can carefully. It's great for insulating a house, not good for mouse prevention. The expanding foam will distort relatively enclosed areas.

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Old 08-18-2010, 09:46 AM   #37
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I'm a fan of aluminum screen - used works just fine and there's often a neighbor here in the country that is re-screening his porch.

It crumples into whatever shape you need and will stay where you put it, usually. If you find it needs a little adhesive, a dab of silicone, goop or any other stuff will work.

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Old 08-18-2010, 11:13 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post

and as customers we are entirely to blame for where the models/lines and trim are headed...

a/s builds what sells and most new buyers want shiny interior walls and techy laminates.

folks care more about the mp3 connections or token led bulbs or a "new" color palate...

than the water capacity or furnace ducting, or storage finish/fit assembly.

so a/s will continue to DEcontent critical elements that most don't appreciate...

while featuring gloss and sparkle and 'wenge' innovations.
__________

there is NO QUESTION some design glitches continue to roll out of production

because they can ROLL 'em out that way,

and folks will still gobble da turkeys up.

ok, that's my rant 42day.

cheers
2air'
There is no reason that Airstream should put less thought and effort into the design and construction of trailers that don't have cabinets that look like they were salvaged from a 1982 tract home and textiles your grandmother would love on her sofa.

Your "it's the market's fault" rant would be dead-on if there were the option to buy the trailer with all the Classic construction techniques and more modern finish work on the inside but everyone chose to go for the poorer construction with their modern style, perhaps to save a few $ on the purchase.

This is something I wrestle with as I think about what sort of trailer I really want... there are good prices to be had in the used market, but I'd want to redo the interior in addition to all the mechanical rework I can expect... I like the modern look of the recent Safari/FC/International trailers, but you're suggesting that they're structurally/mechanically inferior to contemporary Classics... What's a design geek to do?
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Old 08-18-2010, 11:52 AM   #39
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thanks for posting...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKB_SATX View Post
...Your "it's the market's fault" rant would be dead-on if there were the option to buy the trailer with all the Classic construction techniques and more modern finish work on the inside...
actually this IS possible,

but the shellz gotta go to a shop in colorado for the refined interior and with a LOT added to the final price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKB_SATX View Post
you're suggesting that they're structurally/mechanically inferior to contemporary Classics... What's a design geek to do?
well that's one reasonable interpretation.

and i do agree there are SOME models that are structurally inferior...

and some structural/mechanical ISSUES that are REcurrent problems.
___________

but the point was more related to DETAILING and subtle user valuable features that are gradually being LOST...

and replaced with 'pre fab'd' ikea like items that can only be REPLACEd (not repaired) when they break or wear.

for example solid wood can be REfinished for decades, while laminates don't easily transition this way.

the tacky/dated interior LOOK of the classic lines...

could be totally transformed into a modern/urban/metro cool, without a LOTTA effort or cash ...

and without LOSING the inherent value and durability and subtle user valuable travel features.

but i see NO evidence that a/s is trying to do this, it's simply easier to toss out the older materials

and throw in poorly made stuff that LOOKs current but won't REMAIN useable for decades.

the crap screwed to the walls and floors and called an "interior" is mostly junk.

and the utility of many bits is being LOST as the interiors evolve...

for example...

the classics came with a DEEP sink in the lav, mine is 10-12 inches deep.

so one could hand wash garments that MIGHT be needed when no laundry is nearby.

while tiny shallow birdbath styled sinks are basically useless for the rv/traveler.

savy rv'ers known some of their needs

and if the unit doesn't HAVE that stuff end up trying to ADD it.

while back yard "ain't she pretty" buyers never get THAT deep into the game.

and a/s is gradually DROPPING the hidden features that cost money to include

and aren't OBVIOUS or initially important... to new "design geeks".

the OP in this thread has one of the FEW recent builds

that was tried AND succeeded at blending retro/modern/utility with hip design that will survive decades.

unfortunately the winick model elements didn't transition to LONGER units, as WE HOPED.

because it was cheaper and easier to take a few ccd type surfaces and tweak the colors.

one is a TRAVEL'n trailer with travelin' amenities and the other is something else.

the classics represent a HOLD OVER from the time when a/s was STILL building units for heavier use, longer trips and more time in service.

cheers
2air'
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Old 08-18-2010, 11:53 AM   #40
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I just did a two week trip with my Argosy Minuet in Canada. Like Dave, I had some mice get into the trailer (killed seven of them!)

Although there is ranting about the modern trailers, there are lots of nooks and crannies in my "good old days" trailer for mice to mingle as well. I saw one poke its head out into the pantry from behind/underneath the curved profile of the shower pan - no good way for me to get back into that... At least I can get fully under and within the spaces under the gaucho and dinette.

That said, I spent 10 nights boondocking (with not much towing inbetween to recharge) with no battery woes at all. (Of course, my basic trailer lacks the amenities of the new ones...or the voltage drain of the new fridges...and I went all LEDs inside...and it was summer...and your mileage will vary...)

Tom
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:12 PM   #41
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Given the Airstream exec mindset, why should they care? They don't aim to build a gazillion trailers—they don't have the room to do it without costly capital expenses. They could run 2 or 3 shifts, but that has problems too. If they keep cutting costs, keep selling enough trailers to efficiently utilize their factory despite cheapening the product, why change? They are making big profits, so, given their shortsightedness, why change anything? If sales fall over time, perhaps they will rationalize it.

There a benefit to selling a fairly scarce product at an inflated price. Thor can produce many bunches of trailers in other brands and bask in the caché of Airstream.

As for the dated style of the Classics, perhaps Thor reasons that old people with the most money like that stuff and younger people with less money like the more modern stuff. All I know is I'm old and I don't like the Classic interior, though such dated styles are abundant in the RV world. I also like the aluminum interior in ours, but dislike the Formica partitions. The CCD models don't appeal to me either.

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Old 08-18-2010, 01:22 PM   #42
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I'm going to throw out the possibly controversial statement that no trailer has ever been more suitable for lengthy boondocking than the ones made now.

The 12 volt technology available before around 1970 was worthless. Univolts then were junk compared to what people complain about today. Batteries were lower capacity, shorter lived, something you kinda planned on replacing every year as part of your seasonal maintenance, if you planned on using them.

In 1970 if you were serious about boondocking you got a Humphery gaslight, which is still an alternative, but with modern 12 volt fluorescent ballasts, converters, and battery technology, it isn't really necessary.

In 1970 you would have had your B&W 12 volt television which draw 8 amps or so. Maybe leave the engine running in the tow vehicle for a while to juice up the batteries, although with the electromechanical voltage regulator on the charging system, even if you were lucky enough to have an alternator, that might not do much.

Go back far enough and you get a panel ray heater that doesn't require electric, but, those have their limitations too, and use indoor air as a source for combustion.

Building on what 2air is saying, the classic trailers come with two batteries and with more efficient lighting. In the summer I don't run out of electricity while boondocking. In the winter, well, it's a matter of proper use. I see the furnace as something to be run morning and evening in a boondocking situation. Which, after all, is the way things were in stick houses before central heat.

Over time I have come to appreciate the fluorescent lighting in the classic more and more. It lacks the visual bling of the halogens in the CCD and the high tech geeky bling of the LEDs. But, in reality, the lumens per watt is better than either, and there are no problems with heat, and the diffuse, even light is great.
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