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05-31-2013, 07:59 AM
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#1
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Jim
2010 25' FB Flying Cloud
Danville
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 15
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Ground fault using generators
I have a digital circuit tester that I keep plugged into an ac receptacle in my trailer. When I use my Honda 2000 generators (either in both in tandem or a single solo) I get a ground fault alarm on the tester. I have tried connecting the ground terminals of each generator together and to the body of the trailer. The alarm sounds even when the trailer is insulated from earth - stabilizers raised, hitch jack raised, truck and trailer on rubber tires.
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05-31-2013, 08:21 AM
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#2
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Rivet Master
1999 23' Safari
Perrysburg
, Ann Arbor
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 916
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Do you ground your generators, using their ground terminal (don't know about Hondas, but my Yamahas have a separate ground point on their frame) and a good, deeply planted ground rod?
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05-31-2013, 09:55 AM
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#3
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Rivet Master
1977 27' Overlander
1954 25' Cruiser
1990 34.5' Airstream 345
VC Highlands
, Nevada
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,151
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In most Honda portable gas generators the neutral circuit is not bonded to the frame of the generator or to the earth ground lead; and are commonly called Floating Neutral generators. The floating neutral configuration is common for applications such as connection to a recreational vehicle and connection to home power where the transfer switch does not switch out the neutral to ground connection.
Even if you bond the trailer to the ground connection on the generator, you still do not have a Neutral Bonded setup. So, the fault detector is likely seeing that.
In a Floating Neutral system, trailer occupants are not endangered by electrocution from current going to ground since the ground wire and the neutral wire are not bonded at the generator bus, the equipment grounding wire does not offer a path for the fault current to complete the circuit back to the generator windings. In effect an open circuit, current will not travel it and so the fault current does not even go to ground. The figure above, illustrates why that is the case.
At my house, I have a 240-120 volt, 7kva step down transformer powering the trailer when it is parked. I set this up so that I could run the AC at home when I need and doing that through an extension cord on 120 volt outlet causes too much voltage drop...blah, blah, blah. My point is that this transformer is an isolation transformer and as such I do not have a neutral bonded to earth ground even though the ground wire of the trailer is bonded to the ground of my electrical system of my house. The nature if the electrical isolation of my primary and secondary windings of my transformer prevent a path for current to flow through the ground of my trailer. It also is a floating neutral in this case.
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05-31-2013, 10:25 AM
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#4
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"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjmoser
I have a digital circuit tester that I keep plugged into an ac receptacle in my trailer. When I use my Honda 2000 generators (either in both in tandem or a single solo) I get a ground fault alarm on the tester. I have tried connecting the ground terminals of each generator together and to the body of the trailer. The alarm sounds even when the trailer is insulated from earth - stabilizers raised, hitch jack raised, truck and trailer on rubber tires.
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I use a "dog bone" adaptor when using our 2000i...
You need to put a short jumper wire between the ground and neutral in the end that plugs into the generator.
The fault your seeing isn't a safety concern, it's done just so the circuit won't show a fault when a tester is applied.
Bob
__________________
I’m done with ‘adulting’…Let’s go find Bigfoot.
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05-31-2013, 10:34 AM
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#5
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Austin
, Texas
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 213
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Bob has it right. Built-in Surge Guard or Progressive EMS will also show an error code. The remote on the Progressive has a bypass switch but the better way is make up a plug with the jumper wire between ground and neutral. Plug into one of the two 20 amp receptacles on the Honda or Yamaha and the error goes away. You only need one plug even if you are using 2 generators in parallel.
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05-31-2013, 03:31 PM
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#6
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Rivet Master
2005 19' Safari
GLENDALE
, AZ
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,453
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Quote below is from Honda EU2000i Generator Owners Manual. There is no need to worry about a ground fault indication using regular AC circuit testers.
==========
Ground System
Honda portable generators have a system ground that connects generator frame components to the ground terminals in the AC output receptacles. The system ground is not connected to the AC neutral wire. If the generator is tested by a receptacle tester, it will not show the same ground circuit condition as for a home receptacle.
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04-18-2014, 08:26 AM
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#7
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3 Rivet Member
2014 23' Flying Cloud
2015 28' Flying Cloud
Kalamazoo
, Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 102
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I hope you guys understand all this???? My take away is... it's safe to use the generators despite the error indicator, right?
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04-18-2014, 08:44 AM
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#8
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Rivet Master
2006 25' Safari FB SE
Spokane
, Washington
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,858
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Yes
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04-18-2014, 09:00 AM
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#9
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Rivet Master
2002 30' Classic S/O
Fleming Island
, Florida
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,673
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Another way of stating all this is in your home, neutral is bonded to safety ground and also connected to a ground rod at the meter. Thus the power system is referenced to earth ground and a shock hazard to earth ground exists. The generator system, as explained by buttercup, is a floating neutral, not referenced to ground either safety ground or earth ground and thus there is no shock hazard as long as the isolation is maintained. But also as pointed out by several, some analyzers will detect the lack of a bond between the neutral and ground.
Al
__________________
“You cannot reason someone out of a position they have not been reasoned into"
Al, K5TAN and Missy, N4RGO WBCCI 1322
2002 Classic 30 Slideout -S/OS #004
2013 Dodge 2500 Laramie 4x4 Megacab Cummins
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10-10-2015, 02:48 PM
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#10
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1 Rivet Member
2007 23' Safari SE
Sacramento
, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 12
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Thanks for the info - great forum, bunch of brainiacs willing to share good data so we all sleep a little better. Much appreciated.
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10-10-2015, 05:30 PM
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#11
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Rivet Master
2000 25' Safari
Davidson County
, NC Highlands County, FL
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjmoser
I have a digital circuit tester that I keep plugged into an ac receptacle in my trailer. When I use my Honda 2000 generators (either in both in tandem or a single solo) I get a ground fault alarm on the tester. I have tried connecting the ground terminals of each generator together and to the body of the trailer. The alarm sounds even when the trailer is insulated from earth - stabilizers raised, hitch jack raised, truck and trailer on rubber tires.
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When the trailer electrical cord is plugged into the generator, the ground wire from the trailer is connected to the ground terminal on the generator through the receptacle and plug. Connecting the ground terminal to the trailer in another way does not ground anything. Possibly, contact to earth, otherwise known as ground, can be accomplished through the jack or stabilizers, but this is not reliable. Possibly, in an older trailer with a copper plumbing a ground could be accomplished through the water system, though it would not be reliable.
If you want the whole system to be grounded while the generator is connected to the trailer, you must connect the ground terminal of the generator to an earth ground. A wire connected from the generators ground terminal and mechanically fastened (clamped) either to a ground rod driven into the earth or to a metal water pipe partially buried in the earth will do this. I think (not sure) grounding using this method will correct the issue with your tester and also the ground fault breakers and GFCI receptacles will function properly.
__________________
Alan
2014 Silverado LTZ 1500 Crew Cab 5.3L maximum trailering package
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10-10-2015, 05:35 PM
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#12
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Rivet Master
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton
, Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,868
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Ground fault using generators
An earth ground will not correct the fault reading on the fault detector.
Only bonding the ground and neutral will do this, but this "fix" is neither desirable or necessary.
The best fix is to ignore the fault reading while on generator.
Brevi tempore!
__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......
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10-10-2015, 05:47 PM
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#13
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Rivet Master
2000 25' Safari
Davidson County
, NC Highlands County, FL
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Morgan
An earth ground will not correct the fault reading on the fault detector.
Only bonding the ground and neutral will do this, but this "fix" is neither desirable or necessary.
The best fix is to ignore the fault reading while on generator.
Brevi tempore!
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Will the ground fault breakers and GFCI receptacles function if your advice is taken?
__________________
Alan
2014 Silverado LTZ 1500 Crew Cab 5.3L maximum trailering package
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10-10-2015, 06:40 PM
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#14
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"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Morgan
The best fix is to ignore the fault reading while on generator.
Brevi tempore!
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Really....how would you know if you actually had a ground fault?....
I'll use my genetically modified doggie bone...TYVM.
Bob
__________________
I’m done with ‘adulting’…Let’s go find Bigfoot.
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10-10-2015, 07:31 PM
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#15
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Rivet Master
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton
, Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,868
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__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......
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10-31-2015, 05:40 PM
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#16
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cmipilot
1975 27' Overlander
Flower Mound
, Texas
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 14
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Am I missing something obvious here or isn't modifying the "dog bone" going to require cutting off the factory end and replacing it to provide access for the jumper wire you're proposing?
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10-31-2015, 07:45 PM
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#17
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Rivet Master
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton
, Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,868
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No, you plug it into the spare generator receptacle.
However, IMHO, it is a total waste of effort, but I reserve the right to be wrong.
Brevi tempore!
__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......
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10-31-2015, 08:14 PM
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#18
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Rivet Master
2015 30' International
2009 27' FB International
2007 25' Safari
Currently Looking...
Greensboro
, North Carolina
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,564
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Ground fault
Every time I fire up my Northern Tool 4000w electric start generator which is sitting on the ground, it triggers the ground fault breaker to trip on my Serenity.
My plan is to have the generator connected to a good ground, possibly a five foot heavy chain, or even a copper pole in the ground to see if this can be eliminated. It is frustrating to have to reset this each time I use the generator.
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Happy trails and Good Luck
Ms Tommie Fantine Lauer, Greensboro, NC
AIR #31871 KQ3H
www.fantinesvoice.com
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