Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-20-2008, 11:29 AM   #43
1 Rivet Member
 
New Smyrna Beach , Florida
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11
Help is greatly appreciated

Hi all - an interesting and helpful thread for me.

I wonder if anyone can offer some advice on a problem I've had over the past year. It sounds similar to the problems already discussed here but with one exception.

2007 Safari Bambi 19 footer
GFI BREAKER blew (I think it's teh 30 amp one? Definitely not the two 20s). Not just tripped but got stuck in between Off and On. BatesRv replaced the breaker.

That was a year go. Went camping just last weekend. After about an hour hooked up to the campsite electric, fridge went into check mode. Then I noticed all but 1 electrical outlet was working.

Opened the breaker panel. The "big" breaker (not the two 20 amps) was again stuck between Off and On.

Have an appt. April 15 to have her serviced again.

I find it hard to believe it's a faulty breaker again. Any ideas on what could be the root cause?
__________________

__________________
knicastro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 04:58 PM   #44
Rivet Master
Commercial Member
 
lewster's Avatar
 
Vintage Kin Owner
Naples, FL , Hood River, OR
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,279
Quote:
Originally Posted by knicastro
Hi all - an interesting and helpful thread for me.

I wonder if anyone can offer some advice on a problem I've had over the past year. It sounds similar to the problems already discussed here but with one exception.

2007 Safari Bambi 19 footer
GFI BREAKER blew (I think it's teh 30 amp one? Definitely not the two 20s). Not just tripped but got stuck in between Off and On. BatesRv replaced the breaker.

That was a year go. Went camping just last weekend. After about an hour hooked up to the campsite electric, fridge went into check mode. Then I noticed all but 1 electrical outlet was working.

Opened the breaker panel. The "big" breaker (not the two 20 amps) was again stuck between Off and On.

Have an appt. April 15 to have her serviced again.

I find it hard to believe it's a faulty breaker again. Any ideas on what could be the root cause?
Power surge!

Do you use a surge protector placed between your 120VAC 30 amp power plug and the power post? If not.....you should!!! A healthy spike probably did in your breaker..........
__________________

__________________
Lew Farber...ABYC Certified Master Marine Electrician...RVIA Certified Master Tech ...AM Solar Authorized Installation Center...AIRSTREAM Solar & Electrical Specialist...Micro Air 'Easy Start' Sales and Installations
lewster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 07:06 PM   #45
Moderator
 
HiHoAgRV's Avatar

 
1991 34' Excella
1963 26' Overlander
1961 26' Overlander
Central , Mississippi
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,326
Images: 29
Blog Entries: 49
I've always heard that 2 GFI's in series don't play well. It could be an old wives tail (tale?) 'cause I don't see any technical reason for the problem
__________________
Hi Ho Silver RV! Vernon, Sarah, Mac the Border Collie -
A honkin' long 34' named AlumaTherapy http://www.airforums.com/forums/f205...num-54749.html
and a 26' '63 Overlander, Dolly http://www.airforums.com/forums/f109...ome-71609.html
HiHoAgRV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 07:41 PM   #46
Rivet Master
Commercial Member
 
lewster's Avatar
 
Vintage Kin Owner
Naples, FL , Hood River, OR
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,279
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoAgRV
I've always heard that 2 GFI's in series don't play well. It could be an old wives tail (tale?) 'cause I don't see any technical reason for the problem
A GFCI should only feed a regular, non-GFCI circuit with a limit of 3 outlets. As for the technical reason behind this .....it's above my pay grade .

This was hammered into us at RV Tech school, however.

Perhaps one of the electrical thorists on the Forums can expound further on this topic.
__________________
Lew Farber...ABYC Certified Master Marine Electrician...RVIA Certified Master Tech ...AM Solar Authorized Installation Center...AIRSTREAM Solar & Electrical Specialist...Micro Air 'Easy Start' Sales and Installations
lewster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 07:51 PM   #47
Moderator
 
HiHoAgRV's Avatar

 
1991 34' Excella
1963 26' Overlander
1961 26' Overlander
Central , Mississippi
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,326
Images: 29
Blog Entries: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewster
A GFCI should only feed a regular, non-GFCI circuit with a limit of 3 outlets. As for the technical reason behind this ...
Perhaps one of the electrical thorists on the Forums can expound further on this topic.
I guess we need to let the various campgrounds know that the GFI in the pole is causin' problems since we already have one in the trailer! Oops my '77 is older than GFI...
__________________
Hi Ho Silver RV! Vernon, Sarah, Mac the Border Collie -
A honkin' long 34' named AlumaTherapy http://www.airforums.com/forums/f205...num-54749.html
and a 26' '63 Overlander, Dolly http://www.airforums.com/forums/f109...ome-71609.html
HiHoAgRV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 08:24 PM   #48
_
 
. , .
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,812
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoAgRV
I've always heard that 2 GFI's in series don't play well. It could be an old wives tail (tale?) 'cause I don't see any technical reason for the problem
that''s the BS line i was given by a/s techs for over a YEAR in this thread...

see post 14 and 25.

of course the real issue was a neutral 'short created BY an a/s tech...

see post 40.

once this was corrected, i've had not issues with gfi---gfi since.

nearly EVERY MODERN RV has gfci outlets and MOST newer rv parks have gfci on the poles...

cheers

NOW for the knicastro's new/similar issue in post #43 ....

i think we need more info...

-is the breaker frozen in the mid position, or will in not reset to the ON position ?

-IF the trailer is UNPLUGGED will the breaker reset?

while a surge could do this as lewster suggests..

-doesn't a LOW VOLTAGE situation also have the potential to over heat a breaker?

-did you check the shore voltage at the campsite?

the only thing wired into my big breaker IS the A/C...

-so knisastro...have you looked at the wiring scheme to determine WHAT is on that circuit?

what other details are missing here guys?

cheers
2air'
__________________
all of the true things that i am about to tell you are shameless lies. l.b.j.

we are here on earth to fart around. don't let anybody tell you any different. k.v.
2airishuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 08:52 PM   #49
Rivet Master
Commercial Member
 
lewster's Avatar
 
Vintage Kin Owner
Naples, FL , Hood River, OR
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,279
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman
that''s the BS line i was given by a/s techs for over a YEAR in this thread...

see post 14 and 25.

of course the real issue was a neutral 'short created BY an a/s tech...

see post 40.

once this was corrected, i've had not issues with gfi---gfi since.

nearly EVERY MODERN RV has gfci outlets and MOST newer rv parks have gfci on the poles...

cheers

NOW for the knicastro's new/similar issue in post #43 ....

i think we need more info...

-is the breaker frozen in the mid position, or will in not reset to the ON position ?

-IF the trailer is UNPLUGGED will the breaker reset?

while a surge could do this as lewster suggests..

-doesn't a LOW VOLTAGE situation also have the potential to over heat a breaker?

-did you check the shore voltage at the campsite?

the only thing wired into my big breaker IS the A/C...

-so knisastro...have you looked at the wiring scheme to determine WHAT is on that circuit?

what other details are missing here guys?

cheers
2air'
Joe et al,

Most RV power poles that I come in contact with have a GFCI on the 120VAC outlet, but it is separated from the 30 or 50 amp plug and breakers and should not have any effect on the GFCI in the trailer. When the 120VAC lines in the MoHo or trailer are examined, you never see 2 GFCIs on the same circuit.

I'm really leaning to power spike and poor quality breaker. In all of the breakers that I have replaced over the years, I have yet to see one frozen in the mid position!
__________________
Lew Farber...ABYC Certified Master Marine Electrician...RVIA Certified Master Tech ...AM Solar Authorized Installation Center...AIRSTREAM Solar & Electrical Specialist...Micro Air 'Easy Start' Sales and Installations
lewster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 08:55 PM   #50
More than one rivet loose
 
thecatsandi's Avatar

 
Currently Looking...
Keymar , Maryland
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,754
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoAgRV
I've always heard that 2 GFI's in series don't play well. It could be an old wives tail (tale?) 'cause I don't see any technical reason for the problem
Not true. Each one functions seperately. The first one to sense a probelm trips.
__________________
Michelle TAC MT-0
Sarah, Snowball

Looking for a 1962 Flying Cloud

thecatsandi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 08:58 PM   #51
More than one rivet loose
 
thecatsandi's Avatar

 
Currently Looking...
Keymar , Maryland
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,754
Quote:
Originally Posted by knicastro
Hi all - an interesting and helpful thread for me.

I wonder if anyone can offer some advice on a problem I've had over the past year. It sounds similar to the problems already discussed here but with one exception.

2007 Safari Bambi 19 footer
GFI BREAKER blew (I think it's teh 30 amp one? Definitely not the two 20s). Not just tripped but got stuck in between Off and On. BatesRv replaced the breaker.

That was a year go. Went camping just last weekend. After about an hour hooked up to the campsite electric, fridge went into check mode. Then I noticed all but 1 electrical outlet was working.

Opened the breaker panel. The "big" breaker (not the two 20 amps) was again stuck between Off and On.

Have an appt. April 15 to have her serviced again.

I find it hard to believe it's a faulty breaker again. Any ideas on what could be the root cause?
A surge can do it but I would suspect a slight leak to ground somehwere. A chafed wire if it is the 30 amp it is a short run. That makes it simplier than the other circuits.
__________________
Michelle TAC MT-0
Sarah, Snowball

Looking for a 1962 Flying Cloud

thecatsandi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 09:31 PM   #52
Moderator
 
HiHoAgRV's Avatar

 
1991 34' Excella
1963 26' Overlander
1961 26' Overlander
Central , Mississippi
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,326
Images: 29
Blog Entries: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecatsandi
Not true. Each one functions seperately. The first one to sense a probelm trips.
Humm,I just found out how some of them work. They use a impedance circuit set up in a balanced triad and any imbalance (leak) on one leg causes the circuit to unbalance and trip. I can see how the impedance/ self oscillation of two GFI's could interact and cause issues if they were close enough in a circuit.

Huh?

Lew,
Yup, all of the GFI's I've seen in campgrounds are only on the 15A circuit.

2air,
So they are putting them in the 30/50A's now?
__________________
Hi Ho Silver RV! Vernon, Sarah, Mac the Border Collie -
A honkin' long 34' named AlumaTherapy http://www.airforums.com/forums/f205...num-54749.html
and a 26' '63 Overlander, Dolly http://www.airforums.com/forums/f109...ome-71609.html
HiHoAgRV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 09:41 PM   #53
Rivet Master
 
Phil and/or Sue's Avatar
 
1997 34' Limited
Young Harris , Georgia
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 857
Images: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by knicastro
...
2007 Safari Bambi 19 footer
GFI BREAKER blew (I think it's teh 30 amp one? Definitely not the two 20s). Not just tripped but got stuck in between Off and On. BatesRv replaced the breaker.

That was a year go. Went camping just last weekend. After about an hour hooked up to the campsite electric, fridge went into check mode. Then I noticed all but 1 electrical outlet was working.

Opened the breaker panel. The "big" breaker (not the two 20 amps) was again stuck between Off and On.

Have an appt. April 15 to have her serviced again.

I find it hard to believe it's a faulty breaker again. Any ideas on what could be the root cause?
I have seen breakers go bad, but have never seen one stuck.

I suspect that there's a good possibility that the breaker tripped due to an overload. If it's a 30 amp breaker, then in theory, 3,600 watts total power draw will trip it (Watts=Amps * Volts; 30 amps times 120 volts). Add up your loads and see how close you are. Hopefully, a simple timing issue can explain what happened (my main breaker tripped when I had a bunch of lights on with the A/C and coffee maker running then tried to make waffles at the same time).

Usually when the breaker does it's job and trips, depending on the brand, it either turns "Off" (open), or goes into a "tripped" position that is neither "On" nor "Off".

To reset some tripped breakers that are in "limbo", they must be forced "Off", then can be turned "On". When pushed toward "On" from their tripped position, they are like wet noodles.

By the way, I do not recommend resetting breakers willy-nilly, and strongly suggest shutting off the loads before trying to reset. Then work through turning whatever you need back on one at a time.

Good luck, and please let us know what is discovered!
__________________
Phil and/or Sue w/ Cheryl & Penny and Roger
(Buffett RIP 9/15/08, Gus RIP 12/22/2015)
1997 34' Excella
'09 Dodge Cummins Ram 3500 Crew 4x4 auto
AIR 1753
Phil and/or Sue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 09:44 PM   #54
_
 
. , .
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,812
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewster
...Most RV power poles that I come in contact with have a GFCI on the 120VAC outlet, but it is separated from the 30 or 50 amp plug and breakers and should not have any effect on the GFCI in the trailer...
lewster...

this could be true, no doubt you've looked at way more of these, but the ones i had trouble with included the 30amp as a gfci.

one park mgr called the electrician who wired the sites, and he made a house call and disconnected the pole gfci just for my unit/visit.

i've also plugged into household 15-20 amp gfci outlets (using an adapter) without triggering either gfci...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lewster
... When the 120VAC lines in the MoHo or trailer are examined, you never see 2 GFCIs on the same circuit....
i can't find the schematic for my 34, but there are 2 separate gfci in the galley, on the same circuit.

the bathroom outlet (also a gfci) may be on the same line too, i'll have to check.

i know <ZIP 'bout juice, but favor the neutral/ground leak theory...

apparently there is a fancy gadget they can hook up at the breaker box that will find which line is shorted...

then they must trace everything along the specific circuit, to find the location?

does that read correctly?

in my case the only thing on the shorted circuit was the a/c so finding the exact spot went quickly...

cheers
2air'
__________________
all of the true things that i am about to tell you are shameless lies. l.b.j.

we are here on earth to fart around. don't let anybody tell you any different. k.v.
2airishuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 09:52 PM   #55
More than one rivet loose
 
thecatsandi's Avatar

 
Currently Looking...
Keymar , Maryland
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil and/or Sue
I suspect that there's a good possibility that the breaker tripped due to an overload. If it's a 30 amp breaker, then in theory, 3,600 watts total power draw will trip it (Watts=Amps * Volts; 30 amps times 120 volts). Add up your loads and see how close you are. Hopefully, a simple timing issue can explain what happened (my main breaker tripped when I had a bunch of lights on with the A/C and coffee maker running then tried to make waffles at the same time).
I have tripped my 30A breaker a couple of times. If I turn on the AC and the Water heater electric element at the same time that is enough. The main breaker has never stuck in the middle. Did you turn it off and then try back on?
__________________
Michelle TAC MT-0
Sarah, Snowball

Looking for a 1962 Flying Cloud

thecatsandi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2008, 10:22 PM   #56
3 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
2005 22' Interstate
Afton , Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 226
Gfci

I know there has to be a better write-up than mine about GFCIís. If anyone wants to find it, Iím sure Google or Yahoo will find it for you. All you have to do is type in "GFCI", and there will pop up a large number of technical explanations of what they are.
Hereís a simple explanation:
A GFCI uses a differential current transformer, through which the hot and neutral conductors are led. There is no direct electrical connection here, they are insulated from each other. Normally all of the current flowing down the hot conductor returns up the neutral conductor. The currents in the two conductors are therefore equal and opposite and cancel each other out. The differential current transformer, under normal operation, does not sense any current.
Leakage or fault to ground caused by circuitry connected to the device terminals or by circuits downstream of the device will cause some of the current to take a different return path other than the neutral conductor. This means that the differential current transformer detects current flow and trips a latch inside the device, which opens the hot conductor path interruptor switch.
Iíve never heard of interaction between GFCI devices, probably because they are expensive to buy and installing two of them in line would not actually do more than having one. I canít understand how one could affect another. All they do is monitor the current flow in the hot and neutral conductors, as explained above.
regards
__________________

__________________
herrgirdner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Black water problems Rob Waste Systems, Tanks & Totes 3 08-31-2002 08:34 PM
Shower head problems Pahaska Our Community 25 08-26-2002 11:43 AM
Fridge Cooling Problems 68International Refrigerators 6 07-10-2002 04:53 PM
Lighting problems ramoore53 Electrical - Systems, Generators, Batteries & Solar 1 05-08-2002 11:02 AM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.