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Old 12-03-2010, 09:54 AM   #57
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That is good news!
I don't think the right blue wire is for the brakes. Do you know if the trailer had a breakaway switch for the brakes? It might have been for that though.
How may 12 volt lights are in the trailer? It is possible that a battery sat near where these wires came out of the wall and that all of the hardware associated with a battery; like a fuse panel and or converter could have been removed by PO.
But I am thinking that the other blue wire must have gone to a place where there was DC power. Don't know why these wires came out of the wall unless this is where the battery was. We know now that the left blue wire is for the light. The right blue wire should be the 12volt power for the light. The light having it's own switch, it would make sense.
I can't remember if you said there was a place for or even an old converter or DC fuse box in the trailer. Do you know if there ever was a battery in the trailer? Maybe it just used the TV battery.
Try using the same troubleshooting method you did for the light. Jumper the right blue lead to the screw in the skin. Then with your meter on 2K see if you get a "0" reading on any of the wires in the umbilical cord. Touch the black lead to the skin; make sure it's on a shiny spot then touch each of the wires for the umbilical cord. Of course it should not be connected to the TV. Look for a lonely blue wire on the tongue that might have gone to a breakaway switch.
I'll be gone on Saturday and Sunday, but will check back as soon as I can.
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Old 12-03-2010, 10:17 AM   #58
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Another thought.

If there are other 12volt lights in the trailer that don't work check to see of the right blue wire might go to it or to the pump switch or any light switch in a wall etc. If so use the battery charger to check them out.
In the pics of the umbilical cord exiting the trailer. Where does the blue wire form the TV go? It goes off to the left in the pic and is taped together with another wire. It that the breakaway switch?
I have another idea on how to identify all of the circuits that are associated with what is left of the umbilical cord that comes out of the trailer. I just put a note here to remind me so I can help you out more when I get back to the computer in a couple of days.
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Old 12-03-2010, 12:09 PM   #59
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Do I pass now, Inspector Jammer?
You get a Gold Star and an official Airforums Occupancy Permit.

Jammer.
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Old 12-04-2010, 10:52 AM   #60
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Umbilical Wiring:

I bought a prewired umbilical cord with a molded on 7-pin connector for Little Girl. The umbilical wiring is a standard wiring scheme, where each wire is color coded for its function. When I rewired Little Girl, I used the same color coding for the wiring in the trailer, except I switched the Black wire on the umbilical cord to a Red wire in the trailer. This is the +12 VDC feed from the TV, and it will connect to the battery. Hereís the wiring diagram I used for the umbilical wiring on Little Girl.

little girl umbilical wiring.pdf


All of the wiring runs inside the walls, except for the battery and brake wires. Those run under the floor, inside the belly pan.


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On this picture, the umbilical cord is on the left of the fuse block, and the trailer wiring is on the right.

In looking at the stump of your umbilical cord, it looks likes you have the right colored wires going into the trailer (red, brown, white, blue, green, & yellow). I would start by verifying that the white wire is indeed ground/neutral. Use your multi-meter to see if the white wire is connected to the frame & shell by checking for a zero reading on the 2K ohm setting. If itís ground, then connect the negative lead on the your charger to the white wire, shell, or the frame, and then connect the positive lead on the charger to each colored wire, one at a time, and see if the corresponding light(s) come on. For example, the yellow wire should light up the back-up lights. The green wire should light up the running lights. Skip the blue wire for now.

If those all check out ok, then the umbilical wiring inside your trailer is basically good.

Now for the blue wire. First, make sure itís NOT connected to the frame with the multi-meter (same test you used for the white wire stub). Next, see if itís the same wire as one of the two blue wires inside the trailer. Youíll probably need an extension wire to lengthen the lead on the multi-meter. Clip one lead to the right or left wire inside the trailer, and then check for a 0 reading on the 2k ohm setting by connecting the other lead to the outside blue wire stub. Iím betting that one of those wires indise the trailer is connected to this blue wire. The question is: which one? The one that also connects to the light, or the one that isnít?

The outcome of these tests will determine what we need to do next.

Chris
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Old 12-05-2010, 03:49 PM   #61
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Frustrating day!

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Originally Posted by TG Twinkie View Post
That is good news!
I don't think the right blue wire is for the brakes. Do you know if the trailer had a breakaway switch for the brakes? It might have been for that though. Don't know if there is/was a breakaway switch.
How may 12 volt lights are in the trailer? Just the one in the ceiling. It is possible that a battery sat near where these wires came out of the wall and that all of the hardware associated with a battery; like a fuse panel and or converter could have been removed by PO. But I am thinking that the other blue wire must have gone to a place where there was DC power. Don't know why these wires came out of the wall unless this is where the battery was. We know now that the left blue wire is for the light. The right blue wire should be the 12volt power for the light. The light having it's own switch, it would make sense.
I can't remember if you said there was a place for or even an old converter no converter or DC fuse box in the trailer. Do you know if there ever was a battery in the trailer? Maybe it just used the TV battery. I always thought maybe a battery was there given the size and placement of the blue wires. And the fact that the little glass fuse box was screwed into the wall just above the two blue wires. Nothing was going into the box but there were yellow wires coming out. But there was no venting to the outside for a battery so unless they didn't vent them 50 years ago, I don't know if there was a battery there or not.

Try using the same troubleshooting method you did for the light. Jumper the right blue lead to the screw in the skin. Then with your meter on 2K see if you get a "0" reading on any of the wires in the umbilical cord. Touch the black lead to the skin; make sure it's on a shiny spot then touch each of the wires for the umbilical cord. Of course it should not be connected to the TV. Didn't have much luck with this. Here's the readings for the umbilical cord with the "A" clip on the right blue wire and a screw in the wall, the red probe in the colored wire and the black on shiny skin:

Brown - .002
Red, Green, Blue, white - 1
Yellow - .001


Look for a lonely blue wire on the tongue that might have gone to a breakaway switch. Could not find a lonely blue wire on the tongue.



I'll be gone on Saturday and Sunday, but will check back as soon as I can.
See my response to Minno for other tests I did.
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Old 12-05-2010, 04:17 PM   #62
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Nothing worked!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minno View Post
Umbilical Wiring:


All of the wiring runs inside the walls, except for the battery and brake wires. Those run under the floor, inside the belly pan. I took the piece off that goes around the bottom of the trailer (only just above the umbilical cord) and there were no wires that I could see. The umbilical cord comes out from the belly pan, not the wall of the trailer. It looks like it is actually coming out from under the wall of the trailer. I have not yet cut a hole in the interior wall to see if I can see any wires but will do so if you think I need to.

In looking at the stump of your umbilical cord, it looks likes you have the right colored wires going into the trailer (red, brown, white, blue, green, & yellow). I would start by verifying that the white wire is indeed ground/neutral. Use your multi-meter to see if the white wire is connected to the frame & shell by checking for a zero reading on the 2K ohm setting. Could not get a "0" on the white wire - only "1". If itís ground, then connect the negative lead on the your charger to the white wire, shell, or the frame, and then connect the positive lead on the charger to each colored wire, one at a time, and see if the corresponding light(s) come on. For example, the yellow wire should light up the back-up lights. The green wire should light up the running lights. Skip the blue wire for now. Even though I didn't get a "0" on the white wire I went ahead and connected the charger to each of the lights with the negative lead hooked to the frame. Nothing worked. So, I opened up all the lights and it is understandable why nothing worked. They are a mess and the bulbs are probably burned out (the least of my problems!) as well. I will be ordering new running lights and hope to be able to use the existing tail lights. We'll see...

If those all check out ok, then the umbilical wiring inside your trailer is basically good.

Now for the blue wire. First, make sure itís NOT connected to the frame with the multi-meter (same test you used for the white wire stub). Next, see if itís the same wire as one of the two blue wires inside the trailer. Youíll probably need an extension wire to lengthen the lead on the multi-meter. Clip one lead to the right or left wire inside the trailer, and then check for a 0 reading on the 2k ohm setting by connecting the other lead to the outside blue wire stub. Iím betting that one of those wires indise the trailer is connected to this blue wire. The question is: which one? The one that also connects to the light, or the one that isnít? I hooked an "extender" wire to the right blue wire inside then took the other end around to the umbilical cord. The multi-meter stayed on "1" for everything EXCEPT the tiny little stub of yellow wire that was there. With the right blue interior wire and the yellow umbilical cord wire connected by the multi-meter, I actually got a "0" reading. Go figger...

The outcome of these tests will determine what we need to do next. Advertise the trailer for sale as is????

Chris
After taking loose all the outside lights on the trailer this is what I found:

Running lights on curbside - 1 green wire from trailer tied to 1 green light wire
Taillight - curbside - 1 black wire from trailer which was loose, 1 brown wire tied to 1 black light wire plus 2 green wires to 1 green light wire
Taillight - streetside - 1 red wire from trailer tied to black light wire and 2 green wires from trailer to 1 green light wire
Running lights on streetside - 2 green from trailer tied to 1 green light wire
License plate light - 2 green from trailer tied to 1 black wire which was then tied to 1 yellow wire which went to the light.

Is it hopeless?
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Old 12-05-2010, 04:26 PM   #63
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Quote:
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About the switch for the pump near the sink. What color are the wires if any?
Let me know.
The wires that are under the sink and hook into the on/off switch and the little red light (that were once connected to the old water pump?) are yellow, black and ground. See picture.
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Old 12-06-2010, 09:26 AM   #64
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Checking out the lighting circuits

You don't have to wait to get your new exterior lights to find out if the wiring is OK. Since you could not get a continuity reading from the white wire to the frame of the trailer; just clean a place on the frame where there is shiny metal showing then connect the negative (black) lead of the charger to that spot. Next connect the red lead of the charger to the green wire of the umbilical cord. Then with your meter set on DC volts; touch the black probe of the meter to a shiny spot on the skin (it must be a good connection). In looking at the pics of the light fixtures, none of them look like they had a good ground, so when you install the new fixtures make sure you use new sheet metal screws and that they tighten down firmly. Since the fixtures all look bad you could just remove them and check for voltage at the wire coming out of the trailer. Strip back about 1/4" of the insulation. Make sure the bare part of the wire does not touch the skin. Touch the red probe of the meter to the wire. If you read between 12 and 14 volts, the wire is good. Have your meter set on the DC volts setting. On the tail light fixture is you don't want to remove them, just take the bulbs out and check for voltage at the contact point(s) in the bottom of the socket. I think you get the idea, using the same procedure check the red and brown wires; they should be the left and right turn signal respectively. You may not have backup lights. Lets see how much success you have with this.
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Old 12-06-2010, 09:37 AM   #65
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Common not neutral

This is getting a little nit picky but I have to say it. Minno has refered to the DC ground as "ground/neutral". This terminology is not correct. In DC circuits "ground" and "common" are often used to describe one side of the circuit. The term "neutral" is used only on AC circuits. They "ground" and "neutral" are two very different animals.
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:58 PM   #66
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Good news?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TG Twinkie View Post
You don't have to wait to get your new exterior lights to find out if the wiring is OK. Since you could not get a continuity reading from the white wire to the frame of the trailer; just clean a place on the frame where there is shiny metal showing then connect the negative (black) lead of the charger to that spot. Next connect the red lead of the charger to the green wire of the umbilical cord. Then with your meter set on DC volts; touch the black probe of the meter to a shiny spot on the skin (it must be a good connection). In looking at the pics of the light fixtures, none of them look like they had a good ground, so when you install the new fixtures make sure you use new sheet metal screws and that they tighten down firmly. Since the fixtures all look bad you could just remove them and check for voltage at the wire coming out of the trailer. Strip back about 1/4" of the insulation. Make sure the bare part of the wire does not touch the skin. Touch the red probe of the meter to the wire. If you read between 12 and 14 volts, the wire is good. Have your meter set on the DC volts setting. On the tail light fixture is you don't want to remove them, just take the bulbs out and check for voltage at the contact point(s) in the bottom of the socket. I think you get the idea, using the same procedure check the red and brown wires; they should be the left and right turn signal respectively. You may not have backup lights. Lets see how much success you have with this.
With the meter set on DC volts (20) I got readings from 19-24 on all the running lights and the green lights in the taillights. Then I connected the charger to the brown wire in the umbilical cord and meter read 24-25 on the brown wire in the taillight. Did the same with the red wire in the other taillight and got similar readings. I don't have backup lights.

So, does that mean that my wiring will work? Problem is that the cord coming out of the trailer is such a mess. There are just barely any wires sticking out and the yellow wire is about 1/4" exposed. I tried pulling on the cord and it wouldn't budge. Even if I am able to connect the cord to it the connections will all be on the outside of the trailer. Seems that might not be a good thing. What do you suggest?

I will be picking up an Optima battery this week and it looks like it, and the box, will fit on the tongue. So that is where it will go. I have also ordered a breakaway switch that should be in next week sometime with my new running lights. I am unable to find new "bases" for my taillights so I will either try to clean up the ones I have or keep looking.

At least today has been better than yesterday.

Thanks for your help.

So, for my own edification, in a DC circuit, the "black" is the ground or common and the red is the "hot"? In AC black is hot, white is neutral and green is ground, right?
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:09 PM   #67
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With the meter set on DC volts (20) I got readings from 19-24 on all the running lights and the green lights in the taillights. Then I connected the charger to the brown wire in the umbilical cord and meter read 24-25 on the brown wire in the taillight. Did the same with the red wire in the other taillight and got similar readings. I don't have backup lights.

So, does that mean that my wiring will work? Problem is that the cord coming out of the trailer is such a mess. There are just barely any wires sticking out and the yellow wire is about 1/4" exposed. I tried pulling on the cord and it wouldn't budge. Even if I am able to connect the cord to it the connections will all be on the outside of the trailer. Seems that might not be a good thing. What do you suggest?

I will be picking up an Optima battery this week and it looks like it, and the box, will fit on the tongue. So that is where it will go. I have also ordered a breakaway switch that should be in next week sometime with my new running lights. I am unable to find new "bases" for my taillights so I will either try to clean up the ones I have or keep looking.

At least today has been better than yesterday.

Thanks for your help.

So, for my own edification, in a DC circuit, the "black" is the ground or common and the red is the "hot"? In AC black is hot, white is neutral and green is ground, right?
I have not been following your thread however anything above 15 volts can damage things very quickly. If you are installing a 24 volt system your readings seem correct however I don't think you are.

Chris
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Old 12-06-2010, 03:21 PM   #68
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I don't understand why you are getting readings so HIGH; the only thing I can think of is that since the only load you have on the charger is the meter and the meter being such high impedance, you are really not loading it down. If you have a 12 volt light fixture around that is in relatively good shape, even if it a tail light or marker light; just temporarily wire it up to one of the green wires that you know works. With the light working, measure the voltage, it will probably be in the 12 to 14 volt range with a load. Are you using a 24 volt charger? But the readings you are getting makes it sound like the wiring is good. Is this the same charger you used to check out the interior light? As for the short umbilical cord. You can splice into the existing cord; using "barrel" or "butt splice" connectors, they come in different sizes and take a crimping tool to install. The yellow ones are for #12 and #10 wire; blue is for #14 wire; red is for #16 wire. You can get these at auto parts stores, maybe even Wal Mart. Is there a Home Depot or Lowes any where close? You can also get what is known as "Heat Shrink Tubing" It must be large enough to go over the area you are splicing. Do your best to stagger the splices so you don't have a huge wad of splices all in one place. If you need pics of what I'm talking about, I can provide them.
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Old 12-06-2010, 03:25 PM   #69
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I don't understand why you are getting readings so HIGH; the only thing I can think of is that since the only load you have on the charger is the meter and the meter being such high impedance, you are really not loading it down. If you have a 12 volt light fixture around that is in relatively good shape, even if it a tail light or marker light; just temporarily wire it up to one of the green wires that you know works. With the light working, measure the voltage, it will probably be in the 12 to 14 volt range with a load. Are you using a 24 volt charger? But the readings you are getting makes it sound like the wiring is good. Is this the same charger you used to check out the interior light? As for the short umbilical cord. You can splice into the existing cord; using "barrel" or "butt splice" connectors, they come in different sizes and take a crimping tool to install. The yellow ones are for #12 and #10 wire; blue is for #14 wire; red is for #16 wire. You can get these at auto parts stores, maybe even Wal Mart. Is there a Home Depot or Lowes any where close? You can also get what is known as "Heat Shrink Tubing" It must be large enough to go over the area you are splicing. Do your best to stagger the splices so you don't have a huge wad of splices all in one place. If you need pics of what I'm talking about, I can provide them.
Even unloaded 24volts would be much to high for a 12v charger the max that would be reasonable would be 14.8v.
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Old 12-06-2010, 04:22 PM   #70
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Wire colors

Normally in a DC system the white wire is "ground" or "common" and it has a negative polarity; the different colored wires; black, red, yellow, green etc are the Hot wire(s) and they have a positive polarity. Each color is assigned to a specific circuit such as tail/marker lights (green); left turn (red) etc.

In an AC circuit normally used in a travel trailer there are 2 colors and a bare wire involved.

Black is the "HOT" wire and is usually connected to the circuit breakers in the panel and may be used in 120 volt light switches as the power (hot feed) to the switch. The "Black" wire is always connected to the gold screw on a duplex outlet or receptacle or other devices with screws.

White is the "NEUTRAL" and is always connected to the neutral buss (a row of screws that are on a metal bar in the panel). The "White" wire is always connected to the silver screw on a duplex outlet or receptacle or other devices with screws. It is also used in what is known as "Switch Legs" in circuits. I doubt you will have these unless you have 120 lights with a separate light switch like in your home. The neutral to buss should not be grounded to the power box or trailer.

The Bare wire is the AC "Ground" wire. (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH THE DC GROUND/COMMON WIRE). The AC ground wire is the "SAFETY" to keep you from being shocked and is connected to any metal box or device and the skin and/or frame of the trailer, also to any bare wire in an AC light fixture that is metal. It is also connected to the "GROUND BUSS" (IT LOOKS SIMILAR TO THE NEUTRAL BUSS BUT IT'S NOT) in the panel. DO NOT CONFUSE THE 2 BUSSES. The "Ground" buss is mechanically attached to the metal box that holds the circuit breakers and to the "ground wire" coming in from your "SHORE POWER" cord. There should also be a #6 or larger solid bare wire that connects to the ground buss at one end and to the trailer chassis/skin at the other.
Even though the "DC Ground or Common" wire and the "AC Ground" are both connected to the skin or chassis of the trailer; they serve very different purposes. The "DC Ground/Common" is the RETURN path for the DC circuit devices; since most only have one wire.
The "AC Ground" is just that; A Ground wire for Safety. No current will flow in the AC ground circuit under normal cicumstances.
The AC circuits are normally wired with "Romex" solid wire either #14 (15amp) or #12 (20amp) depending on the circuit breaker size; with the exception of the "SHORE POWER" cord.
The DC circuits are normally wired with "STRANDED" wire of different colors and wire guages depending on the load of the circuit and their assigned use.

NOTE: WHEN CONNECTING THE BATTERY IN YOUR TRUCK OR CAR RED IS POSITIVE AND BLACK IS NEGATIVE. IN THE TRAILER BLACK IS POSITIVE AND WHITE IS NEGATIVE. As I said in an earlier post "The automotive industry really made things confusing.
Hope this helps.
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