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davidz71 · 08-08-2002, 02:05 PM

You probably remember my ruined weekend in May when my '77 Excella 500 kept tripping the campground breaker, both 30 amp and 15 amp side with adapter. I'm sure you also remember that I pulled the main power line out of the fuse box, bought 30' of Romex wire and tried that approach because I thought my cord reel was shorting out. That still didn't work. I went home that Sunday with my tail between my legs. Once home, I pulled the 30 amp main breaker out after reconnecting the trailer Romex and measured the power off the bare wires---118 or 119 volts or so. I reconnected the breaker and found that the main would not always turn on when I switched it on. I thought great, bought a new 30 amp main and connected it up. It worked fine with no tripping of the breaker in the house.

Well guess what, IT'S BACK! I haven't used the trailer on 110 volt at all since I fixed the problem in May. Last night I went out there to apply a suggestion given to me by a forum member on my post months ago about my "power-on" indicator light. I thought great, I have all the material I need. I pulled my power cord off the reel, connected the 30 amp to 15 amp adapter and when I tried to plug it into my 20 amp yellow jacket extension cord, it tripped the breaker in the garage panel box. I made sure all 110 volt appliances were turned off and disconnected on the inside (including the frig. and converter) but to no avail. The trailer circuit box breakers were off (even tried it with them turned on a couple times). The extension cord is several weeks old and I even tried a 15 amp. extension cord I had around. Same thing. I even disconnected a freezer and water pump to the garden pond and it still kept tripping in the breaker box in the garage.

Am I not holding my mouth right or is this trailer here to make my life a challenge?

uwe · 08-08-2002, 04:56 PM

Ok, I read your post 7 times now, and I am beginning to put things together.
The breaker trips in the garage even if nothig is turned on inside the trailer, and the breakers are all off.
It trips when you connect the Romex straight into the 110V distribution box. This sort of disqualifies the spool and supply cable from being the culprit.
There must be a short in this distribution box. I am going to assume that there is illegal contact between the part where the incoming leads screw on, and the connector of the white ( neutral) wiring, or to ground.
Take an Ohmmeter and check first between the two large prongs on your 30A trailer cord, with all the breakers in the trailer turned off.
If you have continuity, then you know it's between the black and white wire and you should look there first.
If not, then check from either prong to ground and see if there is continuity. If you know which one is the black (Hot) wire, then that's most likely to be the one having continuity to ground. If the breaker trips in your garage, while all the breakers are turned off in the trailer, then it MUST be between the garage outlet and the breaker box inside the trailer.
You can check all your extension cords and adapters first, make sure there is no problem with these.
You might drag the end of your power supply cord next to the breaker box inside the trailer, connect an ohmmeter or a POWERED testlight/beeper of some sort and start messing with things until you see a reaction on either the ohmmeter or the test light etc. Make sure you have a very solid connection from your tester while you're checking things. It goes without saying that you need to make sure that you don't have a rigged power supply like the 30ft romex plugged in accidentally, please be safe. You will find it sooner or later. It sounds like a dead short tripping the breaker.
Hopefully the problem will show it's ugly head sooner, not later.
And yes, your trailer is testing your true commitment to Airstreams.

davidz71 · 08-09-2002, 10:29 AM

uwe,
Thanks for the insight. I also discussed the problem with FrankR and set up a game plan for this afternoon. Last night I pulled the main breaker out and left the black wire bare in the circuit breaker box. I plugged in and it kicked the breaker again. Even though I had previously hooked Romex straight from the campground box to the Airstream breaker box and it would not always work then worked fine, I am beginning to believe I have 2 wires rubbing together from the power cord reel or a problem within the reel itself. I am headed to the house now to do what you and Frank both suggested. Thanks again for the input. I will post what I find.

davidz71 · 08-09-2002, 02:26 PM

FrankR and Uwe,
I checked continuity on my extension cords as Uwe suggested. I then checked continuity through adapter at end of extension cords. Everything OK. I checked continuity to the main circuit breaker with it pulled out and turned to the on position (neutral white wire was disconnected). Everything OK. I connected white wire, turned main breaker off and plugged into 110 house current in garage. It tripped right off the bat. OK, time to regroup. I pulled the main circuit breaker off, disconnected white wire and ground wire then pulled them from the circuit breaker box. I wired up 30' of Romex (you remember the Romex don't you?) and checked continuity from far end of extension cord to fuse box before connecting. OK. Once connected, I plugged into the house and it tripped again. There goes a few more hairs. I disconnected from house, pulled white wire and plugged in again. No tripping. Hmmmmm, short in neutral wire somewhere? I compared the wiring in my box to the diagram in my service manual once more and found something strange. I also referred to the schematic drawings from the first of May when I first noticed this problem. There is an extra piece of black wire appx. 6" in length going from the ground bar to the bar on the white neutral side. That's not right and it is not on my original drawing. I disconnect it on one side and go into the garage to plug into house current. It doesn't trip! A little praying helped a little also. I go to the circuit box in the trailer and turn the main breaker on. So far so good. I turn the next 3 breakers on expecting to be fried at any time. OK, survived that. Next, I turn on the AC and the compressor kicks on while she starts blowing cool air. I'm headed back out to wire back in my original power cord from the reel and see if it is still OK.

In short, a wire that I can't find on either my original diagram or in the service manual was connected from ground to neutral and that was what was shorting me out, I hope! Question is, where did it come from because I didn't do it and there were 2 other people who were fiddling around inside but I do not remember seeing either of them connect a short piece of wire across these terminals. I will know within the next 15 minutes if the rest of the system is still OK based on my first continuity test. Wish me luck!

Jay_Iski · 08-09-2002, 03:19 PM

I am still shopping for my new Airstream but since I worked 'tronics all my life I could not pass this thread without comment.

Continuity and short are confusing terms. I found the thread hard to interpret. There are color code conventions that have conflict.
For electrical distribution 120VAC: Black= HOT , White = NEAUTRAL , GREEN = GROUND

At the civilian commercial land based power plant NEATRAL is grounded.

When we interface distribution with electronics we get : RED = HOT , BLACK = GROUND.

I would think that Airstream grounds NEAUTRAL for safety as well; Protect the occupants.

I have offered no procedure, or recomended no wiring but only attemp to clarify electrical wiring understanding. PLease use CAUTION.

Many times in my life I have witnessed personell including "technicians" test for continuity but not for the short which was the problem.

davidz71 · 08-09-2002, 03:47 PM

Thanks Jay,
I'm no expert but I respect electricity highly. I also get confused when I switch from auto electronics where red is + or hot, black is the - or ground. I also see green referred to as ground. I am only referring to the schematics from my '77 service manual which says that the black wire used throughout the Excella is + or hot, the white is neutral and the bare copper is ground. I do appreciate the warnings to be careful and I never grab wires unless I know I am disconnected from the power source. As I get older I find myself checking twice to be on the safe side.

Well, the original Romex from the power cord reel to the circuit breaker box has been in place since just after my last post and all 110 volt appliances have been plugged back in. I am running a large Patton fan inside the trailer in addition to 2 of my overhead exhaust fans and so far all is well. I still do not know where that extra wire came from unless I have developed a dual personality and the "evil one" put that extra wire in.

I want to thank all of you for heading me in the right direction and by the process of elimination I was able to see something that was out of place. Frank told me "Don't make me drive there!" and if he had been here, he probably would have spotted the problem right away because that wire would have stuck out like a sore thumb. I'm at that stage that I know just enough to get myself confused but with good help on this forum the little "light" over my head turned on. By the way, Frank has a wealth of knowledge and a really nice guy. Hope I haven't ruined your reputation Frank. Uwe, this is the first chance I have had to check continuity with the meter I bought last year. It's not something I usually have to fool with but I've done something new for a change. Thanks for your suggestions.

uwe · 08-09-2002, 04:29 PM

Davidz,
You are most welcome.

Jay_Iski · 08-09-2002, 07:31 PM

I suspect that someone at a camp site was "helping" and the jumper was to ground neutral and stop a "ground fault" from kicking. Then at home, the first time somehow the testing was done with an ungrounded neutral. When polarity was reversed, it grounded the hot wire. Have to have been there to know. Sounds like it is solved now. I think I will upgrade my old voltmeter as well as purchase some other testers when I get my trailer.
I have worked on commercial cabinets at factories running off different phases and over time and repairs, many dangerous conditions have been introduced. I even received a shock a 7/11 store once while reaching across a cooler to get an icecream while holding the door open on a standup cooler across the aisle.
The submarine was the best distribution system I ever saw. Completely ungrounded delta delta was maximum reliability. I wonder if sola transformers are helpful for campsites? I imagine a little safari just can't use too much payload for unnecesary weight.

john hd · 08-09-2002, 08:00 PM

davidz71,

i was not going to post on this board until i read your post.

go outside and un plug your trailer.

the wire you removed was put in place to protect you!

any mobile (ungrounded) device should have the neutral tied to the ground to protect any one who should come in contact with your trailer. this is done to protect against reversed polarity. the descripion you posted sounds like this is your problem.

in your post you described a wire reel. sounds like it may be damaged internally or WIRED WRONG! either way you are putting your self and any one who may touch your trailer at great risk.

i would suggest you hire a competent person to trouble shoot your trailer. OR starting with your plug make sure your black wire is not reversed in any part of your system. and reinstall the jumper in your breaker box.

john

davidz71 · 08-09-2002, 08:28 PM

OK guys, any comments about what john hd has to say? The trailer is not connected at this time so everything is OK. Anyone else out there with a rear bath '70s have a black wire jumper from the ground to neutral bar? It doesn't show up in my service manual circuit box wiring diagram. Wouldn't my Reverse Polarity light on the side of my trailer light up if plug wires were switched?

john hd · 08-09-2002, 08:46 PM

at this point i would not trust any thing but a complete visual/electrical inspection of all of the components in your electrical supply.

there is no reason that your trailer should trip breakers in two different locations if some thing was not ok in your trailer.

sorry to sound stern, but something IS wrong with your wiring.

you mentioned that you have a wire reel, i would look there first. the only reason i mention that is because they have brushes in them like a motor and they can fall apart shorting the case to ground possibly causing the problem.

however you mentioned that you ran romex to the breaker box and still had the problem, correct?

john

thenewkid64 · 08-09-2002, 08:50 PM

It could be that the reverse polarity thingamabob shorted out and the black wire was part of what made it work???? I understand the part about tying the ground to the neutral for saftey sake after reading john hd's post I am wondering if you have a hot lead that is shorted to ground or neutral in the skin.

It may be time to call in the pro's as this could get to be dangerous soon.

davidz71 · 08-09-2002, 09:01 PM

John,
The breakers in the trailer have never tripped whether turned off or on. It is the ground fault breaker in my garage and/or an outside outlet wired into the same circuit that was tripping. I used GB Instruments receptacle instrument to check all 110 volt receptacles and they showed that wiring is correct. If polarity was reversed would this not show (hot and neutral contacts interchanged) on the tester as indicated?

davidz71 · 08-09-2002, 09:05 PM

John,
Yes, I ran Romex and it did trip the breaker in the garage until the jumper was removed. This bypassed the electrical reel.

thenewkid64 · 08-09-2002, 09:14 PM

Craig,

Is the breaker that you are referring to the one in the main panel of your house or is it the GFI at the plug that is popping? You may just have a weak GFI as older AS TT Are known to trip GFI breakers/outlets. This does not necessarly indicate that the wiring in the trailer is bad, just that you may want to try plugging into a non GFI outlet with the black wire back in place and seeing if your 120 volt outlets in the trailer test out with the 3 light tester.

davidz71 · 08-09-2002, 09:22 PM

Brett,
This is the GFI breaker within the main breaker panel that is wired to plugs in the garage, front porch, back porch and the 2 bathrooms. At this point, I may put the jumper back in tomorrow afternoon and then hook up to a nonGFI receptacle in the house to see what happens. If it doesn't trip then I'll check with the receptacle tester.

john hd · 08-09-2002, 09:23 PM

that means the problem is most likely in your cord reel. the fact your tester reads ok is good news. but you must still find the fault in the supply circuit. did you have problem when you ran the romex to your breaker box?

here is a really easy test: drag your plug inside the trailer then take your volt meter or a test light and check between your outside plug and any inside 120v outlet. check for a complete circuit . find your hot lead on your trailer plug and the right hand slot on an interior outlet, you should have zero ohms or the test light should be on. do the same for the neutral.

if this checks out then there is no way you have reversed polarity.

then take a reading from the hot lead on your plug to the chassis of the trailer. i'll bet you a cold beer that you'll find a short. (open all beakers in the trailer for this test)

john

john hd · 08-09-2002, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidz71
John,
Yes, I ran Romex and it did trip the breaker in the garage until the jumper was removed. This bypassed the electrical reel.

did it do this at the campground ? did the campground have a gfi also?

john

davidz71 · 08-09-2002, 09:30 PM

John,
I'm headed out to the trailer to make the check.

davidz71 · 08-09-2002, 10:15 PM

Yes, it did it at the campground and that is what caused the whole problem. Mid 90's outside and the first outing my wife agreed to go on since I thought I had AC. The AC had been working perfectly a couple short times I tried it and last year I was plugged up to a campground in west TN with no problem concerning breakers. This last campground had a GFI setup that one guy referred to as "no fault" or something like that. I was finally able to run my electrics after running Romex wire and trying multiple times to plug in. Somehow it started working and I ran the AC and frig. for 2 hours before tripping over the Romex as I walked around the back of the trailer. We never could get the breaker from tripping again. I came home, replaced the 30 amp breaker after connecting the wires from the reel and everything worked fine until today.