Dead Batteries

[accordionman]

well my 3 week old used 2015 Classic 30 has dead batteries. Here's the story. We went on a 4 day trip to break it in and put it to bed last week( in the garage) until the next trip. One thing that struck me during our first outing was the battery % minder over the stove showed a slightly lower battery voltage every day for 3 days. Day 1 - 12.8 V, Day 2 - 12.3 V, Day 3 - 11.8 volts. I thought that was kind of odd. Now after the coach being plugged into 110 V for a 8 days or so, I have dead batteries. Now I have to admit, I did have a senior moment and the other day left a couple of ceiling lights on when I left it. But if the charging system were working that would have been incidental, but instead, as I said, "dead batteries". A couple of things - first the battery disconnect switch has a red LED light. That light is on ALL the time. The small switch appears to be a rocker type switch; i.e. it returns to the neutral position. I can't find any info on the switch as to whether or not it's like a light switch or the rocker characteristic is what it should be. Does the light always stay on as in this one ? If the switch is a simple on-off switch (SPST), it should be pretty easy to test. I checked the 30 amp fuses on the inverter and they are OK (I can see the filament). So I either have a bad inverter or a bad battery disconnect switch. Any ideas ? Any help would be appreciated.

[Troutboy]

The red light should only be on when in the Use mode. When in store it should be off. When it's on, that means you are energizing the batteries to be used or charged.

There are many threads around poor batteries and how to check if your are dead. You need to check the specific gravity in each cell to see if the batteries are bad or dead.

Also, many folks think that you can fry the batteries by overcharging then with the stock AS charger.

I can't easily find and post these links but will come back later and post if others haven't responded.

[alano]

The red LED light is misleading. It indicates 12 V is present. When you're connected to shore power, you converter runs to create 12 V - hence the LED is on. The rocket switch indicates whether your batteries are connected (Use) or not (Store). If you want your batteries to charge, you need to select the "Use" position while connected to shore power.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

The only *practical* way to get your batteries back from < 50% charge level is the converter / charger. It runs off of shore power through a breaker. When you turn on shore power *and* have the battery switch in use (or on some trailers even if not in the use position) the battery will charge. It's easy to see this on the voltage monitor. The battery voltage will climb up above 13V after a few hours. If it does not, check your fuses and breakers first. Then dig into the batteries.

Bob

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by alano

The red LED light is misleading. It indicates 12 V is present. When you're connected to shore power, you converter runs to create 12 V - hence the LED is on. The rocket switch indicates whether your batteries are connected (Use) or not (Store). If you want your batteries to charge, you need to select the "Use" position while connected to shore power.

This is indeed the case in most AS.

accordianman, even if the red light was illuminated when you were on shore power, you may have not been charging the batteries correctly, because you had not definitively pushed the Use side of the switch. Even in the switch in the Store position, the 12-volt juice coming from the converter will illuminate the red light. Stupid design, yes!

The following threads contain lots of info which you may find helpful:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f516...on-169925.html
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f449...lp-169693.html
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f317...ge-170153.html
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f449...or-170148.html
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f449...ns-170201.html

Also, this resource is a good read on RV batteries in general.

http://www.batteriesnorthwest.com/batteryschool.cfm

To further complicate matters, some Use/Store switches are defective or go bad, and some of the red lights do not work correctly. For instance, on our 2014 FC20, the red light works sometimes, and not at other times, which we confirm by turning on the overhead lights. BTW the switch activates a standard relay behind the wall, and you can hear it "click" on and off when the switch is working right.

Good luck!

Peter

PS -- terminology -- your "converter" changes 120-volt shore power into 12-volt DC power for the trailer, which also charges the batteries. The "inverter" is a separate piece of equipment which takes 12-volt power from the trailer's system and changes it to 120-volt AC.

PS2 -- I would check your battery water levels (wear safety goggles and gloves -- distilled water only) and plug back into shore power to charge the batteries then start the diagnostic process again IMO. Or take your batteries to an Interstate battery store and have them tested. You probably need new batteries, and your life will be simpler if you accomplish this ASAP. Summer calls! Always wait one hour after unplugging from shore to get an accurate battery voltage reading from your monitor BTW.

[accordionman]

That's really confusing. The LED is on all the time ? The digital % read out on the wall above the stove top indicating the voltage in the batteries and the content of the tanks has no display, as the 12 Volt power in the coach is completely out, except the 110 V outlets. Now the little red light on the battery disconnect is "on". But the batteries are not charging. I have pushed the rocker switch up(suggesting it is on) numerous times. I have also checked the 30 amp fuses in the inverter and they are OK.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

As mentioned above, the inverter has nothing to do with charging the batteries. They are mainly (or only) charged by the converter charger. If you have solar, the gizmo above the stove shows the status of the solar charger and the batteries. Also, if you have solar, the panels will try to charge the battery. Being a bit small, they don't get the job done very fast.

Bob

[dasams]

Originally Posted by accordionman

One thing that struck me during our first outing was the battery % minder over the stove showed a slightly lower battery voltage every day for 3 days. Day 1 - 12.8 V, Day 2 - 12.3 V, Day 3 - 11.8 volts.

Last Aug, we bought a brand new 2017 FC with batteries that were dated 5/16. We hit the road and were on shore power at every site. Our first boondock was Feb and we watched our voltage drop same as you. The batteries were fried due to the crappy OEM converter. Bought new batteries (AS reimbursed us) and replaced the converter with a PD4655. Now all is well

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by accordionman

That's really confusing. The LED is on all the time ? The digital % read out on the wall above the stove top indicating the voltage in the batteries and the content of the tanks has no display, as the 12 Volt power in the coach is completely out, except the 110 V outlets. Now the little red light on the battery disconnect is "on". But the batteries are not charging. I have pushed the rocker switch up(suggesting it is on) numerous times. I have also checked the 30 amp fuses in the inverter and they are OK.

Yes, when plugged into shore power, the red light is on all the time. See my last post. Your converter/battery charger may be bad IMO. Do your 12-volt overhead lights work when on shore power? If so, the converter is supplying 12-volts to the trailer, so hopefully it is also charging the batteries. Your battery monitor should read 13.7 volts +/- if the converter is operating correctly.

You keep saying inverter. See my last post's first PS.

It will help IMO if you take the time to read those other threads I just linked. There may be multiple possible causes for your problems, and a rapid-fire series of too-focused questions may not get the big picture. I repeat the PS2 from earlier about stepping back, charging/testing the batteries, and starting the diagnosis all over.

Thanks,

Peter

[alano]

Check the converter fuses, not the inverter fuses. Also, do you have access to a DVM? Can you measure the output of the converter while connected to shore power? What's the voltage across the battery terminals?

[PKI]

You are getting good info. Read those threads.

The voltage drop off you observed (12.8, 12.5, 12.3 ...) sounds like the converter (charger) was not charging the battery and you were consuming the energy in the battery over time. Note that there are parasitic 12volt loads on the battery 24/7 if you do not disconnect a cable and you obviously were not doing that. If the converter is charging the battery, you will see the voltage (13.5-13.7) the converter is putting out to charge it. A voltage of 12.8 is a fully charged battery. A voltage of 12.1-12.2 volts is a 50% charged battery. That means, your problem was either the rocker is not in the use position or the converter failed. Betting on the rocker being wrong position as a 12.8 charge level has to come from somewhere.

Take your time and figure it out. Batteries are cheap, but I would not give up on them just yet. Even if wounded they have some life remaining, just months and not years. A new multi-stage converter is cheap, but not really a mandatory upgrade. However what is mandatory, if you store for longer than a month, is that you must either install a disconnect switch (not same as the rocker) for the battery bank or disconnect the ground cable to kill the parasitic loads. Do a full recharge on the batteries before you store.

Good luck. Pat

[accordionman]

looks like I need to take a reading on the output of the converter. I have been mixing up the name of the inverter and the converter. The questions is, of course, what reading am I looking for on the output of the converter?

I will take that up with AS central tomorrow.

Thanks to all for your help !

Ed

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by accordionman

. . .
. . . what reading am I looking for on the output of the converter?
. . .

In Post #9 was this:

Originally Posted by OTRA15

. . .
Your battery monitor should read 13.7 volts +/- if the converter is operating correctly.
. . .

You have a lot of information to digest, Ed, so let's pick up the ball tomorrow, after you have had more time to read the threads linked earlier. If you can charge the batteries overnight, that will help with the diagnosis tomorrow, but not sure if that is possible at the trailer's location. You should check the batteries' water levels before doing this. [See PS2 in Post #5 especially the safety cautions, and unplug from shore power before checking the water. Battery gases are explosive, so do not smoke or have an open flame nearby.]

Have a good evening.

Peter

[accordionman]

Major senior moment here. I spoke with the David Sanders at Sanders RV in Alachua, FL yesterday. He was immensely helpful. I went back to the coach today and used the 7 way on the truck to give me a bit of power and found that I had the battery disconnect off instead of on. So, as a result the batteries were not getting charged, which speaks for the diminishing voltage readout on the digitial read out above the stove during our first and only trip. When I arrived at storage, the led on the BD switch was faintly visible. AFter plugging into the truck, it turned red as an apple. I could here the solenoid under the recliner seat working. I left the coach charging and will return no later than Sunday to see if my batteries are back up to snuff. They are only 3 weeks old, so hopefully this scenario didn't cause any permanent damage.

Thanks to all of you for all your help. I actually learned a lot, as a result of this mistake with all the info you folks provided. I think this entire experience was for the best as I learned a lot about the charging system.

[lsbrodsky]

Note: it did cause permanent damage. Whether that affects you depends on your reliance on battery power. You have reduced the capacity of the batteries permanently, but if you spend most of your time plugged in at a campground, it won't matter. If you boondock, you will see the diminished capacity.
Larry

[OTRA15]

Thanks for the update, a good learning experience indeed. As Larry just said, you have probably reduced the useful life of the batteries, but their longevity will depend on how you use them.

After you have fully charged the batteries, if you want to assess their condition, and if you have time to do the following, try this:

-- disconnect from shore power and wait an hour
-- read the battery voltage on your monitor (should be about 12.7 +/-)
-- turn your Use/Store switch to Store and leave the trailer alone for as long as you can
-- every 24 hours switch to Use and note the voltage -- return to Store
-- your battery voltage will drop a little each day, but should not go below 12.5 in the first 2-3 days IMO
-- if the voltage gets down to 12.2 plug into shore power right away and report all the data from this process
-- our batteries will last a week or more before getting down to 12.5, even with the propane detector online

You may not the time or flexibility to do the above, but spending a week doing this will give you good feedback on the condition of the batteries, and will provide further learning.

One step at a time . . .

Happy Trails!

Peter

[accordionman]

I left the coach today on shore power in the "Use" position. The voltage was hanging out around 11.7 which I expected since they were flat empty when I got there. I then decided to just leave it charging on the shore power and go back on Sunday. I should have a full charge by then. At that point, I can initiate your test. How many days should I continue that test ? Unfortunately, most gated communities in FL (and we're one) do not allow prolonged presence of RV's, Boats, etc in the driveways, so my coach is around 40 mins away. I'll adhere to that schedule as closely as possible.

[OTRA15]

With the shore power connected, and the switch in the Use position, the battery charger/converter should have resulted in a reading of 13.7 volts or so on the monitor. The first thing to try when you go back is to turn that switch on and off a number of times and listen for the click of the relay opening and closing behind the wall.

Hit Use again and check the voltage. If not about 13.7 let us know. Take a 120 volt tool or light with you to plug into an outlet, to double check that you are getting full AC power from the shore power connection.

If the monitor IS reading 13.7, then I would simply leave it on shore power for another 1-2 days. You could skip Sunday if so.

One step at a time, or else we get too many variables arising too quickly. We need to know the above info before moving on. By the way, some of the feedback above in this post has already been posted here, so it might be good to review this entire thread before you go back to the trailer tomorrow.

Have a good evening.

Peter

PS -- Did you check the battery water levels per earlier posts including the important safety measures to follow?

PS2 -- Do the lights etc. inside the trailer work?

[accordionman]

Morning Peter,

To address some of your points in the last message:

When I was at the coach yesterday, I did function the switch to determine if the solenoid was working and I could hear it clicking in/out. It is quite audible, and apparently, under the recliner in the front of the coach and working well.

I have a small 110 V fan on the kitchen counter running 24/7 to keep air moving in the coach and it is working fine. In fact ( it's plugged into one of the standard 110 V outlets (not an inverter outlet)), it was running fine when the batteries were depleted.

I definitely want to return tomorrow ( Sun ) to see what the monitor is telling me about the battery levels.

This entire episode was a function of my not understanding how the Battery Disconnect switch functioned. The two people that helped me understand completely how that functioned were a CSR at AS Central in Ohio and David Sanders of Sanders RV in Alachua, FL

I checked the water in the battery last week before this episode started and the levels were perfect. I will check again, tomorrow.

The upside of the any permanent damage to the batteries is that my wife and I, unless forced by conditions, have no boondocking plans in the near foreseeable future. Being new RVers, we want to get accustomed to our coach in more convenient settings for now. Boondocking may be in our future, but it won't be in the next couple of months.

Taking the day off from Airstreaming maintenance today. Will let you know tomorrow the reading on the monitor. It'll be later in the day.

Thanks for everything,
Ed

[OTRA15]

Sounds like a good plan, Ed, and thanks for the update. Enjoy your "day off" and see you next week!

Cheers,