Cross wired 64 trade wind advice, please!

[A-Merry-Can]

today i installed my 12V fantastic fan in our 64 tradewind's rear vent. when i went to hook it up, something was wrong, so i checked the voltage, and it read 120. i pulled out the light just ahead of it, and checked that voltage, and IT read 120 as well. our unit came with AC from the factory, and that is just ahead of the light, so the trailer was wired with a 120 run to the AC.

in the rear of the unit, i have a circuit breaker, with a 30A breaker that turns the trailer off, and (2) 20A breakers for the interior stuff. one of those breakers trips the AC, the other one trips these 2 leads that i think should be 12V. i doubt very seriously they would wire multiple 120 leads to the roof back then, especially at these locations. the 2 leads are not connected at the top of the trailer, even though the leads are only 12 inches apart.

i am 99.9% sure these 2 leads, or at least ONE of them should be 12V. i assume that coming off the circuit, there's a lead for the transformer, and i guess it would be possible for someone to have wired these runs either to the wrong side of the transformer, or directly to the circuit breaker? i'm no electrician, but does this sound like a plausable theory?

has anyone else ever experienced anything like this? any advice would be appreciated! i plan on looking a little closer tomorrow at lunch. guess i'll start at the rear, if i can get in there!

thanks again all!

jp

[Creampuff]

If you have a manual check the wiring diagram. they can be tricky to read for a novice but it should tell you how many circuits you have. I know in most '60's trailers I've seen, there is only 2 110V circuits plus a main. One is for your AC and the other for appliances and outlets.
I installed a FF in my '67 and tapped into the first wire I found and it turned out to be 110V. I fished further down the curbside and found the 12V circuit and then every thing was Fantastic!
Not sure what the issue is with your ceiling light.

[dwightdi]

My 63 has 120 VAC as well as 12 VDC running to the overhead lights. The rear fan and the kitchen fan have switches so they can run on city power or 12 volts. You should find wiring for both types of current in the ceiling.

[A-Merry-Can]

would they run a single 110 lead to the rear vent opening with NO 12V, though? it's got a dedicated lead that goes to the AC just ahead of it. also, i fished around the ceiling light and found no other wire leads, so at the very least, that one has to be cross-wired somewhere. i HATE tracking down electrical bugs! if i get a chance this afternoon, i'll take a look at the rear circuit breaker and see if it's a main run, wired wrong. i HOPE so, as that would be a relatively simple fix. if it's in the wall, though, i think i'm hosed!

jp

[john hd]

i think i'm hosed!

any chance you can drop the center ceiling sheet and expose all the wiring?

john

[overlander63]

Your 64 may be an early one, and there may still be some residual 120 volt wiring from the 1963 models that were not deleted.

[Safari Tim]

I think the lete 50's and early 60's trailers only had 120v run up to the vents unless they had more advanced packages like the International.

On my International Ambassador, I have 120vac and 12vdc wired to each 14" vent with a swtich to go from city to batt to power the vent.

I know on Colin's '59 Ambassador, which is also an International he only has both 120vac and 12dc on his rear 14" vent. His front 14" vent only has 120vac.

It probably is the case that you only have 120ac available.

[flyfshr]

My '59 TradeWind only had 110 volt to the center vent for the fan and no 12 volt to any of the three vents. I sliced in a 12 volt line from the small ceiling light that was 12 volt to go to the hanging booth light.

Brad
FF

[A-Merry-Can]

why would i have 120 run to the 12v light, then? that's the strange part. you would think that at least that one run would be 12V? there's no 12V lines there at all, though there is a 12V fixture.

man, i love these old things! ha! something tells me when the little one's back on the road, i'm going to redo this one from the frame up, too... i never learn. ha!

jp

[overlander63]

Originally Posted by A-Merry-Can

why would i have 120 run to the 12v light, then? that's the strange part. you would think that at least that one run would be 12V? there's no 12V lines there at all, though there is a 12V fixture.

man, i love these old things! ha! something tells me when the little one's back on the road, i'm going to redo this one from the frame up, too... i never learn. ha!

jp

Our 63 has dual power (12v and 120v) to each and every light and vent in the coach.

[A-Merry-Can]

... ok, things are becoming a LITTLE clearer... sorta.... i tested both leads again, the one in the rear vent, and the one behind the roof light. one read a varying read out of around 18 volts, the other read around 20... fluctuating slightly... something is DEFINITELY wierd. i thought they were 120V, but maybe i read my guage wrong. the fantastic fan does not work on either, BUT the dome light does.

here's my NEW hypothesis. i think maybe i have a faulty ground for a 120 volt outlet, switch or whatever, and that is causing the whole trailer to have a live ground every time the AC cycles (however many times a second that is), hence the fan is not working.

i tried the fan on a 12V car battery, and she ran really smoothly, so i know the fan's ok.

the 12V bulb did not blow on the lead behind it's hole. the one i mentioned earlier as being 12V.

i have NOT tried to plug in a 120V item to any of these leads yet. i could if that further supports my case.

so now, what to do? like i mentioned earlier, i'm NO electrician. how do i trace this down? i'm thinking i should pull all the outlets, and turn off the AC as a starter point. IF these outlets are grounded to the trailer, and the 12V is grounded to the trailer as well, wouldn't the AC cause the wierd problems i'm having getting a steady voltage readout?

next steps? what other tests could i do to verify this?

advice appreciated as always!

jp

[flyfshr]

JP ~

Did your unit have the dual voltage fan in the ceiling vent? Seems to me some of those had a step down transformer that would take 18 VAC to 12 VDC and the fan would run on either source of power. The 12 volt coming from the battery while boondocking and the 18 volt was stepped down from the 110 volt while plugged in to shore power. Did/does your unit still have the Univolt or other changed out power supply? Some more research is in order here. This answer may cause more questions than it does answers. I'll look through my records and see if anything turns up on this two way fan and the power supplies to it.

Brad
FF

[A-Merry-Can]

it didn't have a ceiling fan in it at all. i assumed that the lead left by the opening was a 12V for a future fan, and the leads that were plugged into the dome light were 12V as well, being 1156 auto bulbs. it's frustrating beyond belief! i HATE tracking down electrical bugs. it may have to wait a few weeks. got a few trips planned in the meantime!

if the AC were grounded to the shell somewhere, wouldn't it cause the voltage on the 12V leads to fluctuate?

jp

[flyfshr]

If both electrical systems are grounded to the shell, I would imagine there to be problems. One of the two, I would expect it to be the 12 volt, could be grounded to the shell without issues. The 120 volt should be a separate and unique system to the 12 volt. Nothing in common. At least that's how I put in my 12 volt system.

Heck with it for now - go camping!!

Brad
FF

[A-Merry-Can]

ok, i had a brain fart this weekend while camping in this electrical anomoly...

first, another test... i jumped the fantastic fan off a bulb socket, thinking that would be 12V, and the fan didn't turn. i jumped the fan off a car battery, and it ran fine. that got me thinking about this ground issue.

am i understanding this right, in that the 120V system does not ground to the trailer? not even the bare copper wire? if that's grounded, would it cause the crazy voltage issues i'm having with the 12V lines? if that's the case, i'll need to take out all the outlets and test it then. i've also replaced all the outlet and switch covers with pollished stainless covers. they screw through the metal ground on the outlets and switches as well.

is this the next thing i should test, or should i say sod it and test the original transformer. that a whole nuther can of beans! ha!

jordan

[Midamrail]

Jordan,

If I recall, we had a very similar problem while installing a Fantastic in the same location in our '64 Tradewind and finally figured out we had 2 issues at work:

1. The existing wiring was 110V, and we had to run a new 12V line.
2. We still have the original Uni-volt (for now, anyway) and have to flip the switch to battery power from city power in the back under the toilet in order to use the Fantastic or any of the other 12V features. That stinks, because we can't use the Fantastic while we're plugged into shore power.

We have an Intellipower in our Sovereign and had always taken for granted how easy it is. I learned the hard way during a trip that I needed to unplug the Tradewind from the tow vehicle and flip the battery switch in the back of the trailer before turning on the Fantastic and reverse the process before towing again. I forgot to unplug the truck and ended up blowing a fuse in it and a turn signal bulb on the trailer!

[47WeeWind]

Hi Jordan:

1964 was the very first year for the Univolt system, where the light bulbs, fan motor and pump motor all run off low voltage electricity whether switched to the "Battery" setting in the rear service center, when they all are powered by the battery, or switched to the "City" setting, when the trailer is plugged into 120 volts ac at the campground. This Univolt system allowed Airstream to use single voltage light fixtures, where both sockets in a light fixture are wired for the same voltage, instead of dual voltage light fixtures as in 1963 and earlier years, where one bulb is wired solely for 12 volts dc and the other bulb is wired solely for 120 volts ac. Conceptually, 1964 Airstreams provide twice as much light on any one setting.

Being the first year for Univolt, 1964 trailers are wired differently than 1963 and earlier trailers and differently than 1965 and later trailers, which may be why other's advice and experiences are not particularly helpful unless they also own a 1964 Airstream. The discussion below assumes your trailer wiring is original and hasn't been altered or changed by any previous owner.

For 1964 ONLY, when switched to "City" power in the rear service center, the Univolt system uses a AC transformer to drop the 120 volts ac coming in from the campground to 12 volts AC for the light bulbs on one circuit and to ~18.5 volts AC for the fan and water pump motor on a different circuit. The light bulbs don't care whether the 12 volts they get is AC current or DC current, they glow just as brightly on either.

The motors used in 1964 were designed to operate on both 18.5 volts ac and 12 volts dc. But today's dc motors, lkke the one in your Fantastic Fan, won't operate on 18.5 volts ac but will spin happily on 12 volts dc. That's why it runs fine when hooked to a battery but not when wired at your roof.
There is no rectifier (that changes ac to dc current) in this 1964 system, so when switched to "City" power in the rear service center, the wires for light bulbs should read 12 volts AC and the wires for motors should read 18-19 volts AC. If the Univolt - which for 1964 only is just an AC transformer that reduces AC voltage to 12 volts AC for the light circuit and to 18.5 volts AC for the motor circuit - is defective, you may get a reading of 120 volts AC on those wires instead of 12 or 18.5 volts ac.

When switched to "Battery" in the service center, those light bulb and motor wires should both read 12 volts dc on your VOM (Volt Ohm Meter). So with wholly original wiring, your Fantastic Fan installed in the roof vent should work when the trailer is switched to "Battery" power but should not work when the trailer is switched to "City" power.

To run a Fantastic Fan in your roof when on "City" power, you should rewire your trailer so it always has 12 volt DC at the roof vent. To run a modern water pump, you also need to re-wire it to provide 12 volt DC to the water pump instead of 18.5 volts AC. The 12 volts ac now at your light bulb sockets won't run the Fantastic Fan because its ac current instead of dc current, which the Fantastic Fan requires.

An original 1964 Unoivolt transformer - which weight pehaps 20 pounds - will not do this. So you should replace it with a modern combination rectifier and smart 3 stage battery charger, like the Intellipower 9100 or 9200 series or other brands mentioned in the Forums.

If the roof vent wires that read 18.5 volts ac when on "City" power do not read 12 volts dc when switched to "Battery" power, then the 12 volt electrical system in your trailer is not working properly.

I'll stop here for now and let you determine how your trailer is presently wired and tell us what those readings are on both the "Battery" and "City" settings. Once you know that, then you can proceed to rewire it. I hope this helps you sort things out.

[john hd]

jordan

yes the bare copper wire should be grounded. the white wire in the 120v system will not be grounded in the trailer. the black wire is the hot wire.

however, once you plug the trailer into an outlet the neutral (white) will become grounded at the utility entrance of the circuit you are plugged into.

make sense?

and i don't think anything in the 120v system would give you trouble on the 12v side. they are two distinct and seperate systems.

what you need to do is trouble shoot the system one componet at a time assuming nothing works.

start at the source and work your way to the load, check every connection positive and negative.

check that transformer!

john

[A-Merry-Can]

Originally Posted by 47WeeWind

1964 was the very first year for the Univolt system...

wow! thanks for all the info. that makes perfect sense now. i kept getting fluctuating readings on all the 12V outlets when trying to get an accurate reading. i tell ya, this thing had me about ready to pull my hair out! ha! replacing the univolt seems like the best idea. i have a new shurflow pump installed but not wired yet, so i'd rather set her straight from the start.

thanks a million! rewiring this trailer is NOT in my masterplan at the moment! i think i'm going to re-name her "Patches" as i keep patching her together from one trip to the next.

so if i get this intellipower unit from VTC:

http://www.vintagetrailersupply.com/...Code=VTS%2D320

will i still need the switch from city to battery, or is all that handled in the unit?

thanks again!

jp

[Midamrail]

Jordan,

My understanding is the city/battery switch is removed altogether and the Intellipower handles it. The best description I've seen on making the switch in a 1964 is on Arlen and Shirley Manning's site at the following link:

http://globetrotter64.home.att.net/univolt.htm

It's very helpful and is what we'll follow when we get the Intellipower we ordered off the shelf in the garage and into the trailer!

Molly